Are guitars, rock bands, lifeteen, dancing, etc. all allowed?

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LoveJesus said:
Are you kidding me? You’re telling me that it’s a sin for someone who’s really into the Mass to dance to the music…swinging the body from side to side to the music…dancing for joy? Just because it’s not the norm in the West doesn’t mean that it is wrong for everyone else in the world. The Catholic Church is not only made up if Churches from the West, you know. There are many different cultural influences in the Church in different parts of the world. Singing and dancing are very important aspects of African culture…Westerners will view it as “playing around” or “not being serious” but that’s not the case… There’s even lots of dancing at African funerals. Does that mean that the deceased are not being respected because there’s dancing at his/her funeral? No. It’s a very integral part of the culture. That is what I was trying to express.
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I have to agree with you on this one. Remember what happened when Catholics first went into other peoples’ cultures and they weren’t able to understand and tolerate them? Also, look at the people such as the Eritrean or Ethiopian Orthodox/Catholics. They have been doing this for thousands of years. It is part of their tradition. Just as not dancing is a part of ours.
 
michaeldaniels said:
To me…all of those things are an abomination and should be eliminated immediately…it takes the Mass and shifts the focus from God to man and glorifying man instead of God…Where is the solemness?
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David danced before the Lord. he danced with all his might… and when Michal rebuked him … he rebuked Michal and said that he would be twice as strong in his exuberance on the morrow.
God personally told David that he is a man after his own heart. God never rebuked the King and uniter of all Israel for dancing before Him.

How is it that anyone can see into another worshipers heart.
I follow this principle as best I can …
“Judge not, lest ye be judged.”

From personal observation I have seen that “solemn joy” is one reason that many have become so frustrated and alienated.
If exhuberance annoys you. Simply dont participate.

.
 
Yeah…thats right, David did dance and he was “a man after God’s own heart”…we should emulate all of his actions…Let us not forget that David also slept with Bathsheba…got her pregnant, and then had Uriah…a very honorable husband and soldier, murdered, by sending him to the front lines…my point is, David was loved by God…and he was a man after God’s own heart…however, that doesn’t mean that everything he did was perfect and should be copied by all of us.
1way said:
David danced before the Lord. he danced with all his might… and when Michal rebuked him … he rebuked Michal and said that he would be twice as strong in his exuberance on the morrow.
God personally told David that he is a man after his own heart. God never rebuked the King and uniter of all Israel for dancing before Him.

How is it that anyone can see into another worshipers heart.
I follow this principle as best I can …
“Judge not, lest ye be judged.”

From personal observation I have seen that “solemn joy” is one reason that many have become so frustrated and alienated.
If exhuberance annoys you. Simply dont participate.

.
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michaeldaniels said:
Yeah…thats right, David did dance and he was “a man after God’s own heart”…we should emulate all of his actions…Let us not forget that David also slept with Bathsheba…got her pregnant, and then had Uriah…a very honorable husband and soldier, murdered, by sending him to the front lines…my point is, David was loved by God…and he was a man after God’s own heart…however, that doesn’t mean that everything he did was perfect and should be copied by all of us.
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You seem to be stubborn, angry, and not open to any discussion.
There is no logic in your response.

As I said. I have seen many become frustrated and refuse to continue as Catholics because of attitudes like the one you display.
 
brotherhrolf said:
We are not African, Polynesian, Australian, etc.
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We ain’t?
brotherhrolf said:
I fully embrace my western culture. We didn’t dance. We composed. We have 1500 years of western music. Where did that 1500 years go in the last 45 years?
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Gospel music developed in the US from the Western musical tradition and Christian hymns. Much of what gospel choirs do in clapping and stepping to the music, some would consider dancing. Actually, it is not, at least not the partnered, expressiveness of kids ‘dancing’. And, in the American Gospel tradition, there are definite rules as to how a person may do a respectful ‘holy dance’. Only in some Catholic churches are there actually gospel masses, but there is gospel music included in many liturgies.

We cannot all be Trappist monks.
 
We already have the guidance of Pope Benedict XVI on these issues…

Many cultural traditions draw their origins from the religious problems he describes. Not all cultural traditions are of equal value, nor are even when good, fit and suitable for inclusion in the mass.

Certain types of worship belong outside of the mass rather than in it. The mass isn’t a place we put whatever we want into it. Instead it’s a place were we go to do what God wants.

The example of King David is a prefigurement of Mary’s visitation to Elizabeth and the reaction of St. John the Baptist, rather than a liturgical rubric for the future.
 
Shin said:
Read 2 Samuel 6 and the end of Luke 1 and find out for yourself.
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How do either of those scriptures prevent communicants from expressing exuberance in their
love and devotion to Jesus?

… and why not just do as I suggest above. If the expression is not your cup of tea… simply dont drink it.
 
You seem to think the GIRM is subjective, and proper mode of worship subjective. It isn’t. There are standards, there is modesty and the due mode proper to worship.

One doesn’t get up and dance on the table during dinner, one doesn’t put a bear on a tricycle, and one doesn’t play rock music and dance at Christ’s crucifixion.

That isn’t cultural, that’s what’s fitting to the event. 🙂

Now perhaps a procession of the Eucharist outside, I could see some freedom for celebration of that kind if it was respectful. But at the mass?

We can dance in our hearts in emotion, but we shouldn’t be doing the conga in the pews.

There’s a little video here from Cardinal Arinze on liturgical dance.
 
Beau_Ouiville said:
We ain’t?

Gospel music developed in the US from the Western musical tradition and Christian hymns. Much of what gospel choirs do in clapping and stepping to the music, some would consider dancing. Actually, it is not, at least not the partnered, expressiveness of kids ‘dancing’. And, in the American Gospel tradition, there are definite rules as to how a person may do a respectful ‘holy dance’. Only in some Catholic churches are there actually gospel masses, but there is gospel music included in many liturgies.

We cannot all be Trappist monks.
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Do you seek to “trap” me my brother? You forget that I went to eigth grade at St. Aloysius and we were housed at St. Augustine in the Treme in 1964. And that every African American jazz funeral that marched out of the funeral hall down the street from St. Augustine, we were allowed to observe (i.e. the brothers let us out of school and we we were allowed to line the fence and watch).

staugustinecatholicchurch-neworleans.org/

Check it out my friend. Brother Rene’ taught me.

All that you write about Gospel Music developed after Vatican II. The Jazz Funeral stopped at the doors of St. Augustine in 1964 and the deceased had the same Requiem Latin Mass that my ancestors had. When the Requiem Mass was completed, the family processed out with censor and once outside of St. Augustine “Just a Closer Walk with Thee” was sung and the second line formed.

I saw it with my own two eyes. Now what Father Jerome LeDoux did after Vatican II with the Gospel and Jazz Mass? All I can do is testify that in 1964 Creoles and African Americans had the TLM - in Latin. No Gospel music. No Jazz.
 
I see those time bombs in the documents of the Second Vatican Council are still going off. sigh Such confusion they let loose and let reign. “Should we dance, should we have rock music” at Mass? “Is it licit?” And sadly, according to the time bombs in some of the documents, we must admit, “yes, some of these are licit.” But are they right?

“Musicam Sacram”, the Instruction on Music in the Sacred Liturgy, promulgated March 5, 1967, Article 116 (paraphrased): “Gregorian Chant is recognized as being specially suited to the Roman Liturgy and, other things being equal, is to be given pride of place in liturgical services, although polyphony is by no means excluded.” And there you have the time bomb: “other things being equal.”

Thank God for the bastions of sanity, those Traditional Chapels and Parishes.
 
Shin said:
If you were before Christ being crucified on Calvary, truly there witnessing it, would you start up a rock band and clap and dance?

What are you doing?
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No, but I wouldn’t set up an organ and start singing latin hymns either.
 
Tsuwano said:
No, but I wouldn’t set up an organ and start singing latin hymns either.
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Maybe a better question would be, what type of music would better help your focus on Christ going to Calvary?
 
Not stubborn…far from angry…and not really open to discussing something that doesn’t belong in the Mass…PERIOD. I am not frustrated with my faith…I am very, very happy to attend the TLM (Indult) every Sunday…then I do not have to worry about crossing paths and being offended by this type of stuff…if wanting the Mass to be Solemn and for the parishioners to be in complete Awe by the miracle that takes place on the Altar during the Consecration…not to be distracted by women in leotards dancing like they are at a broadway play…if that is wrong, than at the risk of sounding cliche…I don’t want to be right. I don’t care how you spin it…what culture you blame it on…No matter what you say, IT HAS NO PLACE IN THE MASS…and Please tell me where this nonsense took place at a TLM prior to the invention of the Novus Ordo??? Now if it didn’t…that would lead me to believe it is a rampant abuse taking place…because people feel they can inject whatever they want to into a NO Mass…they have forgotten the Mass is a Sacred event…That God becomes pysically present in The Eucharist
1way said:
You seem to be stubborn, angry, and not open to any discussion.
There is no logic in your response.

As I said. I have seen many become frustrated and refuse to continue as Catholics because of attitudes like the one you display.
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Shin said:
If you were before Christ being crucified on Calvary, truly there witnessing it, would you start up a rock band and clap and dance?

What are you doing?
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Your asking this question on the wrong forum. Under Liturgy and Sacraments they would probably say YES, its a celebration, not a sacrifice. And don’t forget microphones either. (Bless to you my Lord, Bless to me my Lord, Bless to all you my brothers and “SISTERS” (Got to be all inclusive) free my Lord).
 
stringbeanduck said:
Maybe a better question would be, what type of music would better help your focus on Christ going to Calvary?
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That is a better question, but the answer is not necessarily a forgone conclusion. It would depend on whom we are talking about. I know many young people who would find it much easier to focus on Christ going to Calvary with soft guitar music rather than organ music. I also know many people from cultures where organ music is unfamiliar who would find it distracting rather than enlightening. I’m not making a negative judgement about organ music or saying that it can’t help you focus on calvary. I’m saying that other instruments can perform the same service for others.
 
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