Are guitars, rock bands, lifeteen, dancing, etc. all allowed?

[elts1956]

I mean liturgies with cheesy, protestantized music (think Michael Joncas, Marty Haugen, and David Haas), ugly vestments that look more like horse blankets, homilies that make the Gospel out to be one big, warm, fuzzy social justice manifesto, and no semblance of the solemnity or reverence the Church requires as part of her public worship offered to God.

Ah so, and now I understand. I agree. Thank goodness our priest doesn’t have a horse blanket in the stall.

 

[Sarabande]

Is it possible that many of the abuses people speak of are geograpical in nature? I live in a large town in Wv (there are no cities in Wv) and I have never seen these kinds of abuses. Of course this area is very conservative and predominately Baptist and CoC. Perhaps these things happen more in big cities where liberalism is rampant.

It’s strange… you would think that would always be the case, but I have to go into the city in order to have a reverent mass. Parishes in the suburbs, tend to be more strange in terms of what they allow. Our last parish had some really bad masses in terms of music and what I call pseudo-rock. At least you knew when those masses would take place so you didn’t have to attend them.

Although it also depends on the diocese. I’ve found that the parishes around here have toned down a bit over the last few years, and I think that has to do with our current bishop. Even the seminarians are much different than what used to be prior to the bishop’s arrival. They seem to be more conservative.

 

[JustaServant]

It’s strange… you would think that would always be the case, but I have to go into the city in order to have a reverent mass. Parishes in the suburbs, tend to be more strange in terms of what they allow. Our last parish had some really bad masses in terms of music and what I call pseudo-rock. At least you knew when those masses would take place so you didn’t have to attend them.

Although it also depends on the diocese. I’ve found that the parishes around here have toned down a bit over the last few years, and I think that has to do with our current bishop. Even the seminarians are much different than what used to be prior to the bishop’s arrival. They seem to be more conservative.

It also could be, that as baby boomers age. thier influence is waning. What looked ‘cool’ in the 70s now looks silly and inapropriate. It also could be the influence of foreign-born priests who were not part of the culture shift that occured in this country in the post Vatican 2 era.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Dancing at Mass is not a sin. There are quite a few parts of the world where people dance to the music during Mass. In non-Western cultures (especially African) it’s normal. A solemn demeanor does not equal reverence. People can be danging for joy because they are happy to commune with Jesus.

Love Jesus:

The point is that it’s not allowed because, esp. in WESTERN CULTURES, it changes the center of the focus from God to Man. Since we don’t live in a culture where dancing is a form of God-Centered Celebration, it’s not appropriate for us. But, If you want to sing & dance “Before the Lord” during your “Holy Hour”, and you know it won’t bother anyone else (empty church or the other person praying has explicitly said to go ahead), go for it. Just remember, you’re singing & dancing to praise the Lord, not to show off your dancing abilities or “Your Liberties”, and you’re not singing and dancing to disrupt the liturgy or anyone else’s worship of the Lord.

We don’t worship to puff ourselves up, to exercise our rights or to show off - We worship to praise God’s Holy Name, as a People and as individuals, to be fed by His Word and Sacrament and to submit ourselves to Him and allow Him to bring us into Union with Him. As yourself if the Dancing is an exercise of a “Right”, a “Showing Off” or some other way of saying, “Me! Me!” I’m sure it isn’t acting in submission to God, praising God’s Holy Name, enabling ourselves to be fed by God’s Holy Word and the Sacrament of his Body and Blood, or bringing ourselves into closer union with God.

If these were true, the Dioceses where “Liturgical Dancing” has been encouraged would have Seminaries FULL of men studying to be priests, parishes FULL of Catholics cheerfully tithing and giving Alms and Offerings and willingly obeying the Teachings of the Catholic Church on issues such as Pre-Marital Sex, Abortion and Artificial Contraception. If these were true, Catholics in these Dioceses would help their Brothers & Sisters in times of need as they did in the Early Church, and Catholics would be so FULL of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit would just flow through and the in our parishes such that we would expect to see the miraculous - Transformations, Healings, Conversions - You name it.

The fact these don’t happen in the Dioceses that encourage “Liturgical Dance” - The fact the Seminaries are EMPTY, the Churches may be half-full, but the people don’t give, let alone tithe, and I’d be hard pressed to say most Catholics in these Dioceses obey the moral precepts of the Church. And, I won’t describe the rest, except to say what our Lord said, “You will know them by their fruits.”

That really should be the question - What is the fruit?

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

What bothers me is that our Parish plays some upbeat worship song after communion and I’m the only the only one who seems to have a problem with it. And whenever I speak out against it, I’m " infringing " on other peoples spirituality. That doesn’t shut me up though… Last time I checked Mass isn’t about how people prefer to worship God. That’s how we got to roughly 50,000 Christian denominations; people had their own opinions on how God should be worshiped. I think the people are starting to make the Mass about them more so than it is about God.

String bean Duck:

Who says you’re the only one? I once had someone who kept saying that to me because I just couldn’t hear him, and he really made me feel terrible about complaining that I couldn’t hear him. Well, It turned out that he was complaining about me always being behind him in my responses (the man couldn’t figure out I was struggling to hear him!) & that I wasn’t “being submissive”. It turned out there were easily a dozen people who complained they couldn’t hear him, and he treated them in the same miserable way he treated me.

Ask around, DISCREETLY. I’ll just say I have a strong suspicion you’re not the only one complaining, unless whoever you talked to has CHASED THE OTHER ONES OUT!

You’re not infringing on other people’s spirituality - They’re infringing on your’s. Whoever you’re talking to has forgotten the old bit about someone’s rights ending at (in this case) “His Guitar String” and the “Other Person’s Ear”. According to the Vatican, YOU have the RIGHT to a Reverent Liturgy. That’s in the GIRM and in other publications from the Vatican. Talk to your pastor about this - do NOT try to do that after Mass - Make an Appointment so he has the time (15-30 min. should be enough) to sit down and talk to you. Remember to be polite and respectful - He’s a pastor of souls and responsible for your soul before God.

Take a note pad, and ask if you can take notes. Write the date & time of the meeting. Ask him if he wants a copy. Occasionally, repeat back to him what he said, esp. if it’s important. and, If you get an agreement on something, repeat then and write it down…

If you done this, Ignore what I wrote. If you confronted your paster on the church steps and he tried to get rid of you - NO COMMENT. Do it this way, you’ll get better results.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Sarabande]

It also could be, that as baby boomers age. thier influence is waning. What looked ‘cool’ in the 70s now looks silly and inapropriate. It also could be the influence of foreign-born priests who were not part of the culture shift that occured in this country in the post Vatican 2 era.

True. That could also be the case. I think, too, that some baby boomers have “matured”. My parents, for example, admit that when they got married in the 1970s, they had all the latest and greatest hymns and such for their wedding. They were also into folk music and enjoyed the guitar at mass (and they both enjoyed classical music as well during this time). BUT as they got older into their 40s, they realized how inappropriate and trite it was. My father constantly uses the word “uplifting” whenever he hears the choir from my parish and the incredible music, chant, etc. that is done there weekly. Although there are still those who are stuck in a time warp.

That said, I do know that as soon as our bishop came onto the scene things changed. He switched out the director of worship to a priest who was actually a classically trained musician and much more conservative, most of the priests in our parish (my parish is the cathedral for the diocese) began wearing cassocks, as did the seminarians, and began getting the parishes to start placing the tabernacles back to the center. Our current director of worship is also conservative. He’s encouraging parishes to start using the propers and last Sunday even got the majority of people in the cathedral during the Latin OF mass chant the credo for the first time. That was actually incredible to witness. Older people remembered it, I read music, so I could chant it and people who had no idea just did their best singing out and following the old fogies and people like me who read music.

 

[eichenb2]

I am wondering…I always see these rock bands playing at the Novus Ordo Masses. I’ve even seen one of the lifeteen/edge Masses. Then there’s the dancing, the moving of the tabernacle, the clapping, etc. So, is this all perfectly in accord with the GIRM? It is, isn’t it? Nobody can do anything, because according to the officials there’s nothing wrong with it, right? Thanks.

I would leave those type of masses and find others that were more appropriate. That scene seems like something out of a pagan solstice ritual.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Howdy, Michael! Nice to see you around! Oh, it was my generation that was responsible… I went to my 40th high school reunion last month. The same guys who were responsible for us singing Simon and Garfunkle are still singing at alumni association Masses. I asked the three of them if they had ever considered singing a sacred motet…went over like a lead balloon.

If I were nearer, I would organize a schola. The class of 1968 graduated with chant and motets. I sang. I love my three classmates dearly - one is a candidate for the diaconate. But as I have always maintained, yeah, for every one of my classmates who embraced Simon and Garfunkle and the early folk hymns…there was an equal and opposite number who were content with chant and sacred motets.

We submitted to Holy Mother Church,

 

[elts1956]

since this is the only Mass, except for one or two times I made it to the TLM in the last 40 years, I have to say my experience is otherwise, I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I have heard what I would describe as a rock band at Mass.

guitars does not equal rock band, nor does it equal “folk music”. It is one of several instruments permissible for liturgical music. Wasn’t Silent Night first written for guitar?? as long as the music and lyrics are approved for Mass and performed in such a way as to enhance rather than detract from the liturgy, they are okay. maybe not my personal preference, but not an abuse, not an aberration. No clapping should not ordinarily be involved. we should not clap after a soloist or choir renders a hymn after communion to organ accompaniment at the TLM, either.

Lifeteen if done in accordance with the rubrics is also legitimate. Like any other Mass, NO, EF, OF, traditional or whatever, if it does not follow the norms than yes, there can be problems. guitar does not equal lifeteen. lifeteen does not equal rock music. contemporary Christian music does not equal clapping, stamping, drums, bad behavior, or dancing. No liturgical dance has no place in the Mass of the Latin rite. Lifeteen does not incorporate it in their Mass. Those that are doing it have made their own additions to the LT program.

Moving the tabernacle has nothing whatever to do with any of the above, but is a local decision made by a local pastor based on the needs of his parish. Again, as long as the norms are followed, he is not guilty of any abuse.

what “officials” are you speaking of? the “official” is the pastor in the parish and bishop in the diocese. address your concerns to him. No, in this culture there is no place for liturgical dance. We are not speaking of other cultures or other rites in this instance.

 

[elts1956]

since this is the only Mass, except for one or two times I made it to the TLM in the last 40 years, I have to say my experience is otherwise, I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I have heard what I would describe as a rock band at Mass.

guitars does not equal rock band, nor does it equal “folk music”. It is one of several instruments permissible for liturgical music. as long as the music and lyrics are approved for Mass and performed in such a way as to enhance rather than detract from the liturgy, they are okay. maybe not my personal preference, but not an abuse, not an aberration. No clapping should not ordinarily be involved. we should not clap after a soloist or choir renders a hymn after communion to organ accompaniment at the TLM, either.

Lifeteen if done in accordance with the rubrics is also legitimate. Like any other Mass, NO, EF, OF, traditional or whatever, if it does not follow the norms than yes, there can be problems. guitar does not equal lifeteen. lifeteen does not equal rock music. contemporary Christian music does not equal clapping, stamping, drums, bad behavior, or dancing. No liturgical dance has no place in the Mass of the Latin rite. Lifeteen does not incorporate it in their Mass. Those that are doing it have made their own additions to the LT program.

Moving the tabernacle has nothing whatever to do with any of the above, but is a local decision made by a local pastor based on the needs of his parish. Again, as long as the norms are followed, he is not guilty of any abuse.

what “officials” are you speaking of? the “official” is the pastor in the parish and bishop in the diocese. address your concerns to him. No, in this culture there is no place for liturgical dance. We are not speaking of other cultures or other rites in this instance.

Dancing at Mass is not a sin. There are quite a few parts of the world where people dance to the music during Mass. In non-Western cultures (especially African) it’s normal. A solemn demeanor does not equal reverence. People can be danging for joy because they are happy to commune with Jesus.

As was said in another post, perhaps in another part of the world it would be “enchanting”. If I am not mistaken at the World Youth Day in Australia in ??? There were aborigines who danced for Pope John Paul II. Now whether this was during Mass, or not, I don’t know. Personally, I think, any distraction from the liturgy of the Mass leading up to the Consecration and Communion should NOT be allowed. ANY action, addition which takes away from the Mass is irreverant. Of course there should be none immediately after Communion either. Now if people want to dance and make idiots fo themselves on the way out the door, I might be able to tolerate that. On second thought, no I couldn’t. Even personal conversations on the way out of church and held among folks who have forgotten the tabernacle with the Body if Christ is in it is still at their backs are fast disgusting me.

Also how can one “commune” with Jesus while twirling in the aisles? The only thing being communed with are the emotions of the dancers.

 

[LoveJesus]

As was said in another post, perhaps in another part of the world it would be “enchanting”. If I am not mistaken at the World Youth Day in Australia in ??? There were aborigines who danced for Pope John Paul II. Now whether this was during Mass, or not, I don’t know. Personally, I think, any distraction from the liturgy of the Mass leading up to the Consecration and Communion should NOT be allowed. ANY action, addition which takes away from the Mass is irreverant. Of course there should be none immediately after Communion either. Now if people want to dance and make idiots fo themselves on the way out the door, I might be able to tolerate that. On second thought, no I couldn’t. Even personal conversations on the way out of church and held among folks who have forgotten the tabernacle with the Body if Christ is in it is still at their backs are fast disgusting me.

Also how can one “commune” with Jesus while twirling in the aisles? The only thing being communed with are the emotions of the dancers.

I’m not talking about choreographed dancing. I’m talking about “natural” dancing that happens when one hears music he/she feels moved by (ie. hymns). Not moonwalking or breakdancing during Communion or Consecration. Of course those are solemn times of the Mass. Gosh.

I can ask the same for you. How does one commune with Jesus while being solemn and looking all sad and stuff? For all I know, someone could outwardly look solemn but be thinking about porn at the same time during the Consecration. It’s all relative. People are complaining (through a eurocentric lens) about how other cultures do Mass, and yet…the Church in those cultures is growing like crazy in these cultures (and those Catholics are VERY well catechized). Of course it’s not just because of dancing. People can follow ethics when it comes to Mass, but if their ethos is not changed, what’s the point?

Are these people taking away from the Mass to you?
youtube.com/watch?v=TygAdmS4Ru8
youtube.com/watch?v=LK4IC8RtNp4
youtube.com/watch?v=CRc54iO_j6U&feature=related

 

[stringbeanduck]

People like you think the solemn "stuff " is all sad and boring, so you feel the need to juice it up so it’s enjoyable to go. As I’ve said before that’s why we have the protestant churches about: people don’t being told what to do, so they worship jesus how they think it should be done. With school and college, young people prefer something more attention grabbing, than what Christ already instituted. Otherwise it becomes a burden to go. Am I right?

 

[LoveJesus]

People like you think the solemn "stuff " is all sad and boring, so you feel the need to juice it up so it’s enjoyable to go. As I’ve said before that’s why we have the protestant churches about: people don’t being told what to do, so they worship jesus how they think it should be done. With school and college, young people prefer something more attention grabbing, than what Christ already instituted. Otherwise it becomes a burden to go. Am I right?

Actually, you’re wrong about me. I personally don’t think that being solemn is boring. I usually have a solemn demeanor during Mass. I was responding to the poster’s “twirling in the aisles” comment. I don’t want all Masses to get “juiced up” to be more “interesting.” All I am saying (which is what I was trying to explain 7 pages back) is that if someone is moved enough to simply sway their body to a hymn (or maybe even a little more), I don’t see anything wrong with it. That. is. all.

 

[CaraMarie]

I once heard Father Groeschel refer to a Church he attended as “The Church of the Laughing Tabernacle” because of the liturgical dancing that took place. He said it in his jovial manner, but his point was well taken. Jesus may very well laugh at some of our antics performed in “His honor.” Our great faith is based on scripture and tradition. I live in the very traditional Diocese of Lincoln, NE. & some of the most beautiful Masses I’ve attended included Chant or songs sung in Latin. The phrase “To sing is to pray twice” holds meaning for me, and I suggest that if all of the Lay-Faithful were to participate more fully in the Mass by simply singing along, the joy and sense of community people crave will be realized through our unity in the Eucharistic Celebration. No need to steel the show from Jesus.

 

[stringbeanduck]

Actually, you’re wrong about me. I personally don’t think that being solemn is boring. I usually have a solemn demeanor during Mass. I was responding to the poster’s “twirling in the aisles” comment. I don’t want all Masses to get “juiced up” to be more “interesting.” All I am saying (which is what I was trying to explain 7 pages back) is that if someone is moved enough to simply sway their body to a hymn (or maybe even a little more), I don’t see anything wrong with it. That. is. all.

You said, “How does one commune with Jesus while being solemn and looking all sad and stuff?” That indicates that a reverent Mass is out of touch and in a sense, boring for people, typically of the younger generation. When people sway to the music, it’s turning the Mass into a worship service. That’s making it more about what the feel, rather than focusing on God. When I went to that LTM, it wasn’t like Mass, but a bunch of kids singing and swaying to praise and worship music, then communion, which was accompanied with more praise and worship music.

 

[LoveJesus]

You said, “How does one commune with Jesus while being solemn and looking all sad and stuff?” That indicates that a reverent Mass is out of touch and in a sense, boring for people, typically of the younger generation. When people sway to the music, it’s turning the Mass into a worship service**. That’s making it more about what the feel, rather than focusing on God**. When I went to that LTM, it wasn’t like Mass, but a bunch of kids singing and swaying to praise and worship music, then communion, which was accompanied with more praise and worship music.

I bolded that word because I am trying to stress that appearance is not everything. I wrote that as a tongue-in-check comment. But nobody, got it. Should have worded it better.

Here’s an example:
outward solemn appearance could mean an inward solemn/reverent/bored/detached ethos
outward dancing appearance could mean an inward joyful/reverent/detached/playful ethos

We focus on God through feeling as well. Catholicism is a sensual religion in its own right.

And I’m not speaking for Lifeteen Masses…because I’ve never been to nor heard of one where I live. Though I’d ask, why did you go to that kind of Mass in the first place? Were you invited by someone?

I’d also like to know your opinion of the videos I posted.

 

[DorianGregorian]

We focus on God through feeling as well. Catholicism is a sensual religion in its own right.

I’m sorry, but I must politely interject.

Catholicism has never been based on “feeling” God in our “hearts.” It’s always been based on the Logos (catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0143.html) it’s been based on reason, on doctrine, on Scripture, on Catechism. Ours is a rational faith.

We have certainly had Saints who experienced God in their daily lives and were even a bit “mystic.” St. Francis comes to mind. However St. Francis had a very through understanding of doctrine, theology, and Scripture. Also even though he was very open in his public ministry, he had a Saintly reverence for the Eucharist in the Tabernacle. I doubt he would of ever spoke, let alone danced, in front of Jesus.

Certainly we have had intellectuals also. Ss. Thomas and Bonaventure come to mind. However these great thinkers also had Saintly reverence before the Eucharist. Aquinas spent his whole life experiencing God through reason and rational thoughts, but before the Eucharist he would prostrate himself before it, despite his big frame. There is an anecdote where he presented one of his works before the Eucharist and asked if he could publish it, and a voice told him that he could. Also see the prayers he wrote about the Eucharist.

What is my point? My point is no matter how “intellectual” or “emotional” a person was. They both had a deep understanding of Church teaching, history, scripture, doctrine, and catechism. Also they would never of done anything but bow in silence before the Eucharist. Never would either side have considered “spicing up” the mass. They realized that they could be Evangelical on the outside, but in the mass, it was a sublime ceremony, the reenactment of Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary.

Ours is not a “touchy-feely” religion. It’s a faith known by reason. Jesus Christ is the Logos, the word. We hear him and we understand him with our intellect.

Laus Deo

 

[1way]

I’m sorry, but I must politely interject.

Catholicism has never been based on “feeling” God in our “hearts.” It’s always been based on the Logos (catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0143.html) it’s been based on reason, on doctrine, on Scripture, on Catechism. Ours is a rational faith.

Jesus told his followers to wait until the Holy Spirit was sent before they went out to preach.
The Holy spirit was preceded by a strong wind and tongues of fire. They started speaking in tongues and and acted in such a manner that they were accused of being drunk. Peter preached boldly for the first time and thousands of converts were won immediately from one of the toughest audiences in the world.

 

[1way]

I’m sorry, but I must politely interject.

Catholicism has never been based on “feeling” God in our “hearts.” It’s always been based on the Logos (catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0143.html) it’s been based on reason, on doctrine, on Scripture, on Catechism. Ours is a rational faith.

You got me thinking…

Jesus was born of a Virgin.
That “irrational” story is ridiculed from that day to this by critics.

Joseph himself would have divorced Mary if he had not been told the truth in a way that he could not deny … a way that is in itself considered irrational by most scientific standards.

 

[RyanML]

I believe that what programs like Lifeteen provide, at best, is spiritual milk for young souls that need that kind of atmosphere to be brought to a more mature level of spirituality. The problem is, these programs usually don’t give kids those spiritual tools. When I was involved in Lifeteen, the kids didn’t care about silent prayer or traditional spiritualities like meditation or the Rosary. After the fun and music, they went home. Once we had a weekend retreat where an adoration chapel was set up but it had to be closed because no one was interested in spending time with the Lord, but they liked the music and hanging out with friends. I remember attending a Steubenville South weekend with thousands of kids there jumping up and down to praise and worships songs all weekend long. There were no Marian devotions or times for silent prayer. The one scheduled Holy Hour was an entire hour of music. There was an adoration chapel open all weekend, but every time I went in for a visit, it was mostly older people with a scattering of young adults. I believe the leaders of Lifeteen are well intentioned but they try to bring the faith down to the kids’ level rather than the other way around.