Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

[BDawg]

Have you been to the temple? therre are secret handshakes taught to allow one lds to recognize another passing through the ‘veil’. Don’t lie.

Yes, I’ve been to the Temple many times, and I already said in my post that we have ritual handclasps in the Temple. So why would you accuse me of lying? Auntie M seemed to be saying that we had secret handshakes to recognize one another on the street, so we don’t have to say we’re Mormons out loud. This is untrue.

So, how many times have you been through LDS Temple rituals?

And why would ritual handclasps be such a big deal, anyway? Catholic Masses are viewed as sacrifices where the host and wine are turned into the actual body and blood of Jesus. I guarantee you that outsiders would see that as weirder than anything Mormons do in the Temple.

 

[hosemonkey]

I have to admit, I am more skilful at truth than I am at humor.

zerinus

zerinus, we have a saying in the South;
“He would rather climb a tree to tell a lie, rather than stand on the ground and tell the truth.” zerinus, you are an excellent tree climber.

 

[PHX_Paul]

Re: Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

Are Mormons Christian?

Check out Webster’s definition of a Christian.

Then check out Webster’s definition of a Mormon.

Paul

 

[BDawg]

Re: Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

Are Mormons Christian?

Check out Webster’s definition of a Christian.

Then check out Webster’s definition of a Mormon.

Paul

Hi Paul,

If someone were to actually take your advice, they would find several definitions corresponding to what people mean when they say the word “Christian.” Mormons would be classified as “Christian” by most of the dictionary definitions you will find.

 

[PHX_Paul]

Hi Paul,

If someone were to actually take your advice, they would find several definitions corresponding to what people mean when they say the word “Christian.” Mormons would be classified as “Christian” by most of the dictionary definitions you will find.

According to Webster’s a Mormon is a member of a church founded by Joseph Smith…I see no mention of Jesus Christ.

Have a good day! I’m off to my " fallen papist" church to receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

Paul

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Mormon as defined by Wikipedia.

Not a mention of Christian anywhere that I could see.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[xixxvmcm85]

No, the LDS are not Protestant (original breakaway from the Catholic Church). The LDS are a whole thing apart. Of course their founder was Protestant, and IMO that’s why you see Protestant doctrine in the LDS doctrine. IMO, the LDS are a group of “borrowers”. They borrowed from the Gnostic heresy. They borrowed from the Arian heresy. They borrowed from the Freemasons (their founder was a FreeMason, and many scholars seem to find that reason for the FreeMason doctrines.) And they borrowed from the Protestants.

I think this is one of the most efficiently simple explanations to what LDS doctrine is. If you don’t mind, I’m going to use this in future conversations about the LDS religion.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Yes, I’ve been to the Temple many times, and I already said in my post that we have ritual handclasps in the Temple. So why would you accuse me of lying? Auntie M seemed to be saying that we had secret handshakes to recognize one another on the street, so we don’t have to say we’re Mormons out loud. This is untrue.

So, how many times have you been through LDS Temple rituals?

And why would ritual handclasps be such a big deal, anyway? Catholic Masses are viewed as sacrifices where the host and wine are turned into the actual body and blood of Jesus. I guarantee you that outsiders would see that as weirder than anything Mormons do in the Temple.

It might help clear the confusion if you explain what the “Tokens of the Priesthood” are used for rather than simply saying what they are not used for.

Unfortunately the secrecy regarding Temple Ordinances (in my opinion) has caused a sensationalized hysteria about the LDS faith that wouldn’t be so if the LDS faithful were a little more informative.

Maybe the LDS church has changed the oaths since I had my Endowment, but I remember only being bound to secrecy with respect to the actual nature of the tokens, the true order of prayer, and the name given at the veil. Any bit of detail that is trivial or simply describes the Endowment “overall” is ok.

 

[zerinus]

It might help clear the confusion if you explain what the “Tokens of the Priesthood” are used for rather than simply saying what they are not used for.

Unfortunately the secrecy regarding Temple Ordinances (in my opinion) has caused a sensationalized hysteria about the LDS faith that wouldn’t be so if the LDS faithful were a little more informative.

Maybe the LDS church has changed the oaths since I had my Endowment, but I remember only being bound to secrecy with respect to the actual nature of the tokens, the true order of prayer, and the name given at the veil. Any bit of detail that is trivial or simply describes the Endowment “overall” is ok.

My policy is to talk as little about the temple ordinances outside the temple as possible. It is not of anybody’s concern.

zerinus

 

[hosemonkey]

It might help clear the confusion if you explain what the “Tokens of the Priesthood” are used for rather than simply saying what they are not used for.

Unfortunately the secrecy regarding Temple Ordinances (in my opinion) has caused a sensationalized hysteria about the LDS faith that wouldn’t be so if the LDS faithful were a little more informative.

Maybe the LDS church has changed the oaths since I had my Endowment, but I remember only being bound to secrecy with respect to the actual nature of the tokens, the true order of prayer, and the name given at the veil. Any bit of detail that is trivial or simply describes the Endowment “overall” is ok.

As a (former) Master Mason of over 25 years, I can assure you that 99% of the temple ritual (the"endowment) is stolen directly from the degrees of freemasonry. The oath, the "penalties, the signs and tokens, directly from freemasonry. Any mormon that tells you that these things were ordained or delivered by God is an abject liar. Any Freemason will tell you the same thing. Joseph Smith was fascinated by freemasonry and he lost no time in incorporating masonic symbolism and ritual into his fake religion.

 

[hosemonkey]

My policy is to talk as little about the temple ordinances outside the temple as possible. It is not of anybody’s concern.

zerinus

It is patently dishonest to place someone into a situation where they are compelled to swear an oath without knowing what that oath entails. It IS our concern when lies and fakery is being used to recruit the unsuspecting into a false cult. mormon apologetics smack of scientology and other mind-control operations. Tell the truth about your belief system and let people make up their minds, do not try to con them.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

My policy is to talk as little about the temple ordinances outside the temple as possible. It is not of anybody’s concern.

zerinus

Seems you do the same when presented with logical questions or points questioning or refuting mormon teachings. Or was this just the case in my instance when I presented the argument quoted below?

visited your blog where you stated the apostasy took place because there was no one of authority left, yet you post above the apostasy took place while the Apostles were still alive?

While some of the scriptures you provided show signs of small apostasies or schisms but nothing you have produced shows a “great apostasy”. When someone leaves the mormon church, do you cry out an apostasy was taking place?

Yes, it is very reasonable that had a “great apostasy” occurred, those who left would have shouted it from the rooftops, documented everything and passed the information along so future generations would not be mislead. They would have seen this as a very important religious event not to be overlooked or forgotten. Even if they, themselves, did not document it the Jews, Romans, historians or any of the list of enemies with the Church would have made it well known to prove the Church was not what it claimed to be. For example, the pagan Romans studied the Christian religion to combat it more effectively. Julian the Apostate unsuccessfully tried to rebuild the Temple in order to discredit the prophecy of Christ that the Temple would be destroyed. Surely the “great apostasy” would have been just what they were looking for.

Catholics can and have provided you documentation from the early Church fathers, and there are lots and lots of documentation to offer. None who even addressed this “great apostasy”. Surely, our Church, or the non-apostasizing Christians, would have found it just as important to have defended against it. In fact, the documentation affirms authority of the Church throughout the ages.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[J_C]

And why would ritual handclasps be such a big deal, anyway? Catholic Masses are viewed as sacrifices where the host and wine are turned into the actual body and blood of Jesus. I guarantee you that outsiders would see that as weirder than anything Mormons do in the Temple.

Hi BDawg… just a comment about your comparison of ritual handclasps to the Eucharist. I think the compaison is poor. I am aware of no discussion of secret handclasss in the New Testament. However there is a great deal of NT material on the Eucharist. In fact, the Catholic Church takes the words of Jesus “You Must Eat My Body and Drink My Blood” as among his most important marching orders for us, his followers.

therefore, since the Eucharist is solidly scriptural, while the temple/masonic ritual handclasps are not, I would say that the comparison is terrible.

 

[GemmaRose]

Originally Posted by GemmaRose
Jeremiah 1:5
“ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

 

[GemmaRose]

Thank you. I was wondering when someone point that out. And the word “keys” are not even mentioned in the quote, so I fail to see how the LDS can even get “Jesus giving the apostles keys” from that quote.

Because they re-write Scripture to fit their ideology and if they can’t find a way to do that, then they rely on the mythical Book of Mormon.

 

[hosemonkey]

Yes, I’ve been to the Temple many times, and I already said in my post that we have ritual handclasps in the Temple. So why would you accuse me of lying? Auntie M seemed to be saying that we had secret handshakes to recognize one another on the street, so we don’t have to say we’re Mormons out loud. This is untrue.

So, how many times have you been through LDS Temple rituals?

I went trough the mormon temple ritual when I was initiated into Freemasonry. The rituals are 99% the same.
With regard to transsubstantiation of the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ, even the heathen instinctively know that a great Mystery is taking place, not some mormon jiggery-pokery. Nothing “wierd” about it. Dressing up in aprons and funny hats and doing secret handshakes…now THAT’S wierd.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I went trough the mormon temple ritual when I was initiated into Freemasonry. The rituals are 99% the same.
With regard to transsubstantiation of the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ, even the heathen instinctively know that a great Mystery is taking place, not some mormon jiggery-pokery. Nothing “wierd” about it. Dressing up in aprons and funny hats and doing secret handshakes…now THAT’S wierd.

hosemonkey,

Since you’ve got experience, can you explain to me how the book of mormon came about, specifically the parts that Joseph Smith first wrote. From what little I’ve heard, that’s about as weird as anything I’ve ever heard with the exception of people actually believing the story.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[hosemonkey]

hosemonkey,

Since you’ve got experience, can you explain to me how the book of mormon came about, specifically the parts that Joseph Smith first wrote. From what little I’ve heard, that’s about as weird as anything I’ve ever heard with the exception of people actually believing the story.

I personally believe that Joseph Smith incorporated the writings of various early 19th century authors(View of the Hebrews et al) portions of the KJV of the Bible, his own protestantism and fantasies of grandeur and desire to make a little money into a fanciful tale of adventure and exploration. I believe that the “Golden Plates” story was a lie, the peep-stone thing is laughable. I believe that this took place over a rather extended period of time and that he was not alone in the fabrication of the BOM, it was an elaborate hoax that required the collusion of others. I also believe that his fantasy religion got out of hand, so many gullible rubes fell for it that JS saw no opportunity to call a halt. Even though mormonism was thoroughly debunked early on, people continued to be taken in. JS saw the opportunity to really “be somebody” and let it go to his head. “When one rides the tiger, it is difficult to dismount.” It certainly met all of Joseph Smith’s needs, power, the regard of his neighbors, sexual domination…
Even though absolutely no evidence exists for the truth of the BOM, people still continue to fall for the scam. P.T. Barnum was right.

 

[GemmaRose]

To qualify as a christian one must believe in Jesus Christ. The trinity is not a qualification for christian belief. Many lds live good christian lives because they attempt to keep the commandments and to live according to the word of god. They also believe Jesus to be the savior. I am not sure that it is correct to define a christian according to the trinity. Many mormons would be considered great ‘catholics’ by the way they live their lives.

I am not debating that many LDS live exemplary lives, however their ideology does not fit the definition of Christian whose beliefs should include, at the minimum:

• The Trinity,
• The deity of Jesus,
• Jesus’ bodily resurrection,
• The atonement as a result of the life, and particularly the death, of Jesus,
• Personal salvation by grace,
• The inerrancy of the Bible
• God’s inspiration of the Bible’s authors,
• The virgin birth, and
• The anticipated second coming of Jesus.

 

[hosemonkey]

I am not debating that many LDS live exemplary lives, however their ideology does not fit the definition of Christian whose beliefs should include, at the minimum:

• The Trinity,
• The deity of Jesus,
• Jesus’ bodily resurrection,
• The atonement as a result of the life, and particularly the death, of Jesus,
• Personal salvation by grace,
• The inerrancy of the Bible
• God’s inspiration of the Bible’s authors,
• The virgin birth, and
• The anticipated second coming of Jesus.

You are dead on. If you do not believe these things, you cannot call yourself a Christian. mormons simply do not qualify, in spite of their prominent display of the Name of Our Lord, Jesus Christ on their “churches.” They are also ashamed to display His cross.