Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

[catharina]

Well, I can’t say that had expected anything more from a representative of an Apostate institution.

zerinus

Whatever you meant, your “statement” is not a sentence.

Since membership on CA requires one to respect the Catholic Faith, why are YOU here?

 

[ljahns]

I would like the Mormon believers out there to consider the following:

1.) There were no witnesses to Joseph Smith’s visions. Every other major appearance of God &/or Jesus has always been accompanied by witnesses. ie - the Hebrew deliverance from Egypt, the giving of the Law, and the birth of Christ. I ask, if God provided ample witnesses for these events, would He not have provided witnesses for something as major as what Joseph Smith claims?

2.) Joseph Smith claimed in his vision to have seen the face of God and Jesus. There is no precendent for this. Not even at Jesus’s baptism when God’s voice is heard, do we see both faces. All througout the Bible, God always hides his face.

3.) Joseph Smith was 14 years old when he claimed to have had his first vision. Again, we have no biblical precendent for this happening. Yes, there are many manifestations of God throughout the bible, but never to one so young. Think for a moment, visualize any 14 year old boy that you know. Would you place your very life, eternal future and fortunes of everyone ever born upon the unprecedented, unwitnessed, and highly unique testimony of this lone boy?

4.) Then there is the character of Joseph Smith himself. The destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor’s press comes to mind. A well documented event both inside and outside the LDS Church. This is the incident that would, in LDS opinion, “martyr” Joseph Smith. Also, his use of what are supposed to be sacred scrying stones for sacriligious purposes (ie scrying for money).

These are just a few. But I think a good starting point for consideration.

 

[ibkc]

Gene, I would say this is a HUMAN MO. The meanings of words are constantly shifting as new things come up, and people struggle to communicate. That’s why we don’t speak Old English, Latin, or Greek.

First, I am not Gene. Second, what you describe is the organic development of language over time, and what you Mormons do is something different. It’s the same tactic deliberately used by far leftists: take a word that has an established meaning, most often a meaning which has positive associations for the majority of people, and start using it according to your own definition. That way, you can say “We’re Christian!” and people who are ignorant of what the LDS church actually teaches will take it at face value. It’s disingenuous.

 

[ljahns]

Thanks for giving support to my statement that we have never wanted to be confused with other types of Christians, but have always considered ourselves Christians.

Sorry, but the title Christian is already taken!

 

[Gene_Church]

I’m quite familiar with the various claims the CC has to its being the church Christ set up. I don’t buy it. Some have published books citing all the various evils and errors of the CC over time. This sort of evidence however is of little interest to me. I don’t need to attack the CC to feel safe in my own beliefs.

My personal guess is that the the church lost its central authority around 150 AD. give or take. Pauls writings make it clear that misunderstandings and people seeking to lead others from the truth was occurring in the churches. The CC claim that they kept it together I don’t see it.

One of the primary problems with the records of that era is that the fox guarded the hen house. Nearly all of our records on the ancient church have passed through the hands of those whose best interest it is in to have nothing obstructing their claim to authority. That does not mean that the CC did alter/manufacture records, but they could have making all such records suspect.

The problem with this conspiratorial approach is that all matters more than a few years old would be suspect. There is more evidence of Biblical claims occurring historically than other things we as a society accept as history. Presumption either concludes we know nothing about the past, or that we can tend to rely on that which we know.

The problems I have with the LDS is that they constitute a more recent history with less validation than events happening far earlier. They make claim to events which our current understanding of history have difficulty justifying.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Our belief in the Apostasy of the early Christian church is a fundamental principle of our religion. It is not something we can compromise on. It is not intended as disrespectful of any particular church. It is equally applicable to all churches, not just to Catholic.

zerinus

So, are you admitting mormons are not protestants by your statement that mormons separate themselves from all churches?

I will remind you one more time to be respectful of the Catholic Church. If you cannot do so, then you shouldn’t be here. This is one of the rules of the forum, as well as posting links to anti-Catholic websites. I, for one, will report posts that do not adhere to the forums rules.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[teancum79]

I would like the Mormon believers out there to consider the following:

1.) There were no witnesses to Joseph Smith’s visions. Every other major appearance of God &/or Jesus has always been accompanied by witnesses. ie - the Hebrew deliverance from Egypt, the giving of the Law, and the birth of Christ. I ask, if God provided ample witnesses for these events, would He not have provided witnesses for something as major as what Joseph Smith claims?

2.) Joseph Smith claimed in his vision to have seen the face of God and Jesus. There is no precendent for this. Not even at Jesus’s baptism when God’s voice is heard, do we see both faces. All througout the Bible, God always hides his face.

3.) Joseph Smith was 14 years old when he claimed to have had his first vision. Again, we have no biblical precendent for this happening. Yes, there are many manifestations of God throughout the bible, but never to one so young. Think for a moment, visualize any 14 year old boy that you know. Would you place your very life, eternal future and fortunes of everyone ever born upon the unprecedented, unwitnessed, and highly unique testimony of this lone boy?

4.) Then there is the character of Joseph Smith himself. The destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor’s press comes to mind. A well documented event both inside and outside the LDS Church. This is the incident that would, in LDS opinion, “martyr” Joseph Smith. Also, his use of what are supposed to be sacred scrying stones for sacriligious purposes (ie scrying for money).

These are just a few. But I think a good starting point for consideration.

1. That vision was rather private other visions had other witnesses.
2. Read the Bible God’s face is said to have been seen.
3. Ever hear of a guy named Samuel? a Child who hears the voice of the Lord. (1 Sam 3) And no I would not bet everything on that, but I would bet everything on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Who directs me to believe Joseph Smith as well as Moses and many other prophets.
4. JS is often attacked for things he did things he did not do and things that we can’t be sure if he did or not. As to the news paper the actions taken where not inconsistent with the legal system of that time. While today such actions would be a crime and the ACLU would through a fit back then such actions where perhaps questionable, but not the crime they would be under today’s legal system.

Bottom line nothing here dissuades me from my conviction of the prophets role in reestablishing the Lord Church on earth.

 

[Gene_Church]

Okay back to logic 101

Ever hear about the protestants? A very large number of people over the years have rejected the CC in favor of what they read in the Bible. Not an air tight case, but clearly a lot of evidence to support the idea that the CC is not Christ’s church as set up 33ish AD.

The fact that people left the CC because they chose to interpret the Bible their way does not establish that the CC is not Christ’s church, any more than Judas turning on Jesus proves that the Church was never formed, or that the LDS forming their own beliefs establishes apostacy.

 

[teancum79]

Sorry, but the title Christian is already taken!

We know, but we are willing to share with others who would like to barrow it from us.

 

[Gene_Church]

You honestly think that the romans and jews cared about the details killing the entire church I can see, but who many people would really care if a small cult that is a bit annoying made some minor tweeks to their dogma every 20-50 years?

I don’t buy it, not the details, worshiping a cow instead of a living God would have gotten noticed.

tea, my problem with this argument is that it is a mere excuse for believing. It requires those who disagree with you to prove a negative. How, exactly, does one prove that apostacy doesn’t exist, if historical records, or written records will not suffice?

 

[Gene_Church]

one then could make the same claim against the LDS since in the early days patriarchs charged for giving blessings.

OH NO! Another apostacy!

 

[Gene_Church]

Do you understand why I say your demands for such precise historical proof of an apostasy only make you look naive?

No. Actually you can hide behind this to justify any claim. Did you know that Jesus appeared via spaceship from another world? Sure, insufficient records for the time.

 

[ljahns]

1. That vision was rather private other visions had other witnesses. .

such as?

1. Read the Bible God’s face is said to have been seen. .

where?

1. Ever hear of a guy named Samuel? a Child who hears the voice of the Lord. (1 Sam 3) And no I would not bet everything on that, but I would bet everything on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Who directs me to believe Joseph Smith as well as Moses and many other prophets. .

Fair enough.

1. JS is often attacked for things he did things he did not do and things that we can’t be sure if he did or not. As to the news paper the actions taken where not inconsistent with the legal system of that time. While today such actions would be a crime and the ACLU would through a fit back then such actions where perhaps questionable, but not the crime they would be under today’s legal system. .

I am talking about JS and his actions and reaction. His actions were, even then, unacceptable. He destroyed that press. Maybe not personally, but he did order it. It was, for all intent and purpose a crime of passion because the Nauvoo Expositor was going to print something that was not to his benefit and he did not like it. Destruction of property back then was a much more serious crime than it is today. He fled to avoid arrest and only after much prompting did he agree to return. He claimed to be going “like a lamb to the slaughter”. LDS claims that he died without a struggle, but the public record indicates otherwise. It says that he died shooting into the mob @ Carthage. If he was going to be “martyred” as he claimed, he certainly went about it in a new way. First time I have ever heard of someone who was willing to suffer martyrdom for his faith that tried to take a few of his persecutors with him.

Bottom line nothing here dissuades me from my conviction of the prophets role in reestablishing the Lord Church on earth.

again, fair enough

 

[AMDGtoo]

t I would bet everything on the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

As would I and as do all of us. The Bible tells us to test the spirits.

Funny, my testimony is from the Holy Spirit too. (Remember, that we need to test the spirits?) And I know that it is different from yours. Wonder why that is.

 

[Gene_Church]

Will be glad to answer. Check out this article, written by yours truly!

zerinus

I particularly appreciated the responses to your site.

 

[1holycatholic]

I particularly appreciated the responses to your site.

 

[Gene_Church]

If you are excommunicated, you have to get re-baptized.

Just curious. Thanks.

 

[Gene_Church]

Yes, but we don’t have any doctrine of complete “infallibility” for prophets, scriptures, councils, or whatever. For LDS, the major point of having prophets, etc., is to help people learn to get in touch with God themselves. If God were to give “infallible” statements to humans, then I think many people would be content to just do what they’re told without thinking and experiencing God’s revelations for themselves.

I certainly don’t think all Catholics are that way, but consider the numerous people who have posted on this thread saying that they don’t care what anyone says, or what evidence is presented, they know Catholicism is the true Christian Church, so THERE! I think they get too comfortable with what someone else told them about “infallibility” and history, and can’t deal with it when someone argues against their viewpoint. They don’t even point to any personal religious experiences, or anything. It’s just that somebody said… etc., and they don’t even know who said it.

And by the way, if you were to read everything Joseph Smith or Brigham Young are recorded to have said, I think you would find that they differed with modern LDS on a few issues, but the vast majority of issues are quite consistent.

This then raises the question for me, what is infallable? Joseph Smith’s statements that he found the gold plates? The Book of Mormon?

 

[teancum79]

As would I and as do all of us. The Bible tells us to test the spirits.

Funny, my testimony is from the Holy Spirit too. (Remember, that we need to test the spirits?) And I know that it is different from yours. Wonder why that is.

I’ll let you speculate on that I know the one I follow is in the service of God and Christ.

 

[teancum79]

such as?

where?

Fair enough.

I am talking about JS and his actions and reaction. His actions were, even then, unacceptable. He destroyed that press. Maybe not personally, but he did order it. It was, for all intent and purpose a crime of passion because the Nauvoo Expositor was going to print something that was not to his benefit and he did not like it. Destruction of property back then was a much more serious crime than it is today. He fled to avoid arrest and only after much prompting did he agree to return. He claimed to be going “like a lamb to the slaughter”. LDS claims that he died without a struggle, but the public record indicates otherwise. It says that he died shooting into the mob @ Carthage. If he was going to be “martyred” as he claimed, he certainly went about it in a new way. First time I have ever heard of someone who was willing to suffer martyrdom for his faith that tried to take a few of his persecutors with him.

again, fair enough

Ex 33:11

The Doctrine and Covenants records several visions JS was present with others for some of them Sydney Rigdon and Oliver Cowldry are to two others that come to mind.

The Nauvoo Expositor was engaging in liable (printed slander). As I recall the city council meet and declared it to be a public nuisance and then exercised their authority to rid themselves of it. I fully admit that under today’s system such actions would not be considered acceptable, but this was 150 or so years ago on the frontier. Some of the finer points of case law had not been made and certainly were not in full practice.