Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

[BDawg]

Hi everyone,

I’m going to be taking leave of this forum for a while, so I can get some things done I’m working on. Thanks for the fun, and if you want to say anything to me directly, you can reach me through my profile.

Man’s best friend, BDawg

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Below please find a prophesy by Joseph Smith:

3 Which city shall be abuilt, beginning at the btemple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and cdedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith

 

[zerinus]

I must be an incredible dolt, but I don’t interpret that to mean the practice of polygamy. Maybe if you sited the whole passage I’d get a better picture.

Never mind. Nan S did it for me. Thanks Nan. Please explain how you get polygamy out of that?

Here is the context in which that verse occurs:

scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2

You will see that it relates to polygamy.

zerinus

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

zerinus;3921964:

Then I have good news for you! Joseph Smith was much more than a genius. He certainly was a genius—but a lot more besides. He was a true prophet; and the Book of Mormon that he translated by the gift and power of God is true.

zerinus

Below please find a prophesy by Joseph Smith:

3 Which city shall be abuilt, beginning at the btemple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and cdedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith

, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city aNew Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which btemple shall be creared in this dgeneration.
5 For verily this generation shall not all apass away until an bhouse shall be built unto the Lord, and a ccloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the dglory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

The mormon posters have argued that they haven’t had enough time to complete this prophesy yet and it could not be considered a false prophesy because that generation had not yet passed, because some members were “translated” (it’s been over 160 years since this prophesy was made). I’d like to point out, as emphasized above, the temple was to be dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, who we all know did not translate but died in a gunfight.

One failed prophesy makes a false prophet.

This post got buried so quickly, I am bumping it for a response or at the very least so others can see it.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[zerinus]

3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith

I have learned by experience that it is not worth the time and effort it takes to answer your questions; but I will briefly answer this one so that you (or other people) don’t think I am dodging it. That scripture is not a prophecy, nor a prediction; it is a commandment. The word “shall” does not make it a prediction. It is like the clause “Thou shalt not kill” in the Ten Commandments. It is not a prediction that you will not kill. It is a commandment not to kill. The same goes for that verse. The fact that it was a commandment, not a prediction, is made clear in another passage in the Doctrine and Covenants, as follows:

D&C 124:

49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

50 And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.

51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

As you can see, it was a commandment, not a prediction. The following passage is also relevant to your question:

D&C 58:

30 Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments?

31 Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled?

32 I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing.

33 Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above.

zerinus

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have learned by experience that it is not worth the time and effort it takes to answer your questions; but I will briefly answer this one so that you (or other people) don’t think I am dodging it. That scripture is not a prophecy, nor a prediction; it is a commandment. The word “shall” does not make it a prediction. It is like the clause “Thou shalt not kill” in the Ten Commandments. It is not a prediction that you will not kill. It is a commandment not to kill. The same goes for that verse. The fact that it was a commandment, not a prediction, is made clear in another passage in the Doctrine and Covenants, as follows:

zerinus

I have underlined and bolded part of your response for emphasis. Below is a response from BDawg on the very same subject:

Hmmm. Actually, the prophecy says this:

“For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.” (D&C 84:4)
​

Now, I have bolded and underlined his response for emphasis. I’d also like to point out he only posted “verse” 4 to, in my opinion, make the prophesy seem vague.

I in turn posted the previous two verses:

Well actually, according to the mormon doctrines and covenants 84:3-5, the whole prophecy says this:

Quote:
3 Which city shall be abuilt, beginning at the btemple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and cdedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city aNew Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which btemple shall be creared in this dgeneration.
5 For verily this generation shall not all apass away until an bhouse shall be built unto the Lord, and a ccloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the dglory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

You guys immediately went into an argument that the prophesy had not failed because that generation had not passed yet, some translated thing going on.

Now one of you is mistaken about it being a prophesy. Is it BDawg or yourself?

One failed prophesy, makes a false prophet.

I’ll be honest, it really appearing to be some fancy footwork going on right now. This new argument only came out as I noticed it said the temple would be dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, who as I said did not translate but was shot in a gunfight.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1​

 

[hosemonkey]

Below please find a prophesy by Joseph Smith:

 Quote:

3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city a New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be created in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all apass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

You have danced around this question and have not answered it for many posts now.
This and many other “prophesies” by Joseph Smith have not come to pass. By the biblical standard, he is a false prophet and deserved death. All this BS about “translated” Apostles and “3 Nephites”, whom we know never existed, does not cut it. Your answer?

 

[Nan_S]

Jacob 2:27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Thank you, Nan, for providing the whole passage. All I can say is that I can’t understand how you read this passage. I’ll let anyone who reads this judge for themselves.

A gentle answer turneth away wrath? Thanks for being charitable.

Upon further reflection, I think I see how you get conditional polygamy out of Jacob 2:30. “For if I will…raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall harken unto these things.” The Lord will command them to do something, I’m sure, but it’s very vague.

Stay with me, please…

I read this passage in the context of the following two scripture passages. The Lord threatens to wipe out the unrepentant and start over from nothing. Polygamy has nothing to do with it.

Deut 9:13-14 I have seen now how stiff-necked this people is,’ the LORD said to Moses. ‘Let me be, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under the heavens. I will then make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.’

Luke 3:7-9 He said to the crowds who came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce good fruits as evidence of your repentance; and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones. Even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

I also read Jacob 2:30 in the context of Noah. The Lord started over with only Noah, his 3 sons, and their wives. Once again, polygamy was not a player.

Since God is in control of gender-determination, God doesn’t need polygamy to re-populate the earth. He simply makes sure there is a boy baby born for every girl baby.
Nan S:

In the BoM, Jacob 2:23-24, God condemns David’s and Solomon’s polygamy as an abomination.
In D&C 132:38-39 David’s and Solomon’s polygamy was sinless, except in the case of Bathsheba.
Were David’s and Solomon’s polygamies an abomination, or were their wives given by God?

Would you do me the kindness of clarifying this? From my side of the room it looks like a major discrepancy.

By the way, D&C 132 also speaks of Moses’ wives. When did Moses take another wife? The Holy Bible only speaks of one wife, Zipporah.

 

[ljahns]

Now one of you is mistaken about it being a prophesy. Is it BDawg or yourself?

One failed prophesy, makes a false prophet.

I’ll be honest, it really appearing to be some fancy footwork going on right now. This new argument only came out as I noticed it said the temple would be dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, who as I said did not translate but was shot in a gunfight.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

From what I have witnessed, you can never pin them down on a lot of issues. They try to misdirect or say it means something else ect. Any unpleasant subject will be whitewashed to the point it resembles nothing like what the prophets or history says.

I have asked a couple of them wether or not they were converts or were born into LDS and also if they were paid members of the LDS. Can’t get them to answer those questions. I think z and bdawg are either paid members and this is part of their jobs or are on their mission and this is it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have learned by experience that it is not worth the time and effort it takes to answer your questions; but I will briefly answer this one so that you (or other people) don’t think I am dodging it. That scripture is not a prophecy, nor a prediction; it is a commandment. The word “shall” does not make it a prediction. It is like the clause “Thou shalt not kill” in the Ten Commandments. It is not a prediction that you will not kill. It is a commandment not to kill. The same goes for that verse. The fact that it was a commandment, not a prediction, is made clear in another passage in the Doctrine and Covenants, as follows:

zerinus

I went back to the Doctrines and Covenants 84 and included a few more of the “verses”:

1 A arevelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they bunited their hearts and clifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the arestoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his bprophets, and for the cgathering of his dsaints to stand upon eMount Zion, which shall be the city of fNew Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be abuilt, beginning at the btemple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and cdedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city aNew Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which btemple shall be creared in this dgeneration.
5 For verily this generation shall not all apass away until an bhouse shall be built unto the Lord, and a ccloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the dglory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

Now, it appears, according to Joseph Smith it was a revelation of the Lord as he spoken by the mouth of his prophets…

Who’s wrong now, zerinus or Joseph Smith?

One false prophesy, makes a false prophet
.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[zerinus]

I have underlined and bolded part of your response for emphasis. Below is a response from BDawg on the very same subject:

Now, I have bolded and underlined his response for emphasis. I’d also like to point out he only posted “verse” 4 to, in my opinion, make the prophesy seem vague.

I in turn posted the previous two verses:

You guys immediately went into an argument that the prophesy had not failed because that generation had not passed yet, some translated thing going on.

“I guys” did no such thing. This is the first time that I have addressed this question from you. I am not responsible for what other people have said. I have told you how I interpret that scripture, and I believe that my interpretation is the correct one.

Now one of you is mistaken about it being a prophesy. Is it BDawg or yourself?

I don’t think that I am. He will have to answer for himself. I cannot answer for him.

One failed prophesy, makes a false prophet.

I’ll be honest, it really appearing to be some fancy footwork going on right now. This new argument only came out as I noticed it said the temple would be dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, who as I said did not translate but was shot in a gunfight.

And I also told you why I don’t like answering your questions. This proves my point. Be assured that in the future I will not be wasing any more time with that.

zerinus

 

[BDawg]

Would you do me the kindness of clarifying this? From my side of the room it looks like a major discrepancy.

By the way, D&C 132 also speaks of Moses’ wives. When did Moses take another wife? The Holy Bible only speaks of one wife, Zipporah.

Hi Nan,

I interpret these passages to mean that:

1. David and Solomon went a little crazy with the polygamy, if you know what I mean. God was clearly ok with David being a polygamist, since God said He gave David Saul’s wives (see 2 Samuel 12:8), but then later David got so greedy that he had Uriah offed so he could cover up his adultery with Bathsheba. And the Bible says that Solomon started taking non-Israelite wives who persuaded him to worship false gods. This seems to me to be the message of Jacob 2. Jacob is saying that the Nephites who were polygamists shouldn’t justify themselves by David and Solomon’s behavior, because they so clearly went overboard.
2. I think the message of D&C 132 is that David and Solomon weren’t wrong to be polygamists. This is consistent with Jacob 2:30.

I really do have to leave off posting for a while, though. Contact me directly if you want to talk to me about anything.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And I also told you why I don’t like answering your questions. This proves my point. Be assured that in the future I will not be wasing any more time with that.

zerinus

Ah, you might want to address the last post I put up. Either you’re wrong or Joseph Smith is wrong, according to the Doctrines and Covenants 84.

I’m sorry to stump you guys, and using your own sources too. Everytime I’ve stumped you, you threaten not to respond to me anymore. It’s beginning to indicate a pattern.

Edited to add: One failed prophesy, makes a false prophet.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

Hi everyone,

I’m going to be taking leave of this forum for a while, so I can get some things done I’m working on. Thanks for the fun, and if you want to say anything to me directly, you can reach me through my profile.

Man’s best friend, BDawg

Hello Mr. BDawg

Look forward to your return and wish you and yours well in the meantime. ( thanks for all your time and patience with me )

God bless BDawg,

Carl

 

[zerinus]

I have asked a couple of them wether or not they were converts or were born into LDS and also if they were paid members of the LDS. Can’t get them to answer those questions. I think z and bdawg are either paid members and this is part of their jobs or are on their mission and this is it.

As I post anonymously, I tend to avoid discussing my personal circumstances on the Net. However, I will inform you that there is no such thing as being a “paid member” of the Church. We do not have a professional clergy. It is all done by voluntere work. Even the bishop does not get paid for what he does. He has his own job by which he earns his living. So no, I don’t get paid for posting messages here. I wish I did! Imagine how much money I could have made if I got a dollar for each post!

zerinus

 

[ljahns]

As I post anonymously, I tend to avoid discussing my personal circumstances on the Net. However, I will inform you that there is no such thing as being a “paid member” of the Church. We do not have a professional clergy. It is all done by voluntere work. Even the bishop does not get paid for what he does. He has his own job by which he earns his living. So no, I don’t get paid for posting messages here. I wish I did! Imagine how much money I could have made if I got a dollar for each post!

zerinus

Then what my mother told me is wrong. She happens to be Mormon and says that there are indeed some paid member of the Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

zerinus;3922204:

I have learned by experience that it is not worth the time and effort it takes to answer your questions; but I will briefly answer this one so that you (or other people) don’t think I am dodging it. That scripture is not a prophecy, nor a prediction

; it is a commandment. The word “shall” does not make it a prediction. It is like the clause “Thou shalt not kill” in the Ten Commandments. It is not a prediction that you will not kill. It is a commandment not to kill. The same goes for that verse. The fact that it was a commandment, not a prediction, is made clear in another passage in the Doctrine and Covenants, as follows:

zerinus

I went back to the Doctrines and Covenants 84 and included a few more of the “verses”:

1 A arevelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith

, Jun., and six elders, as they bunited their hearts and clifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the arestoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his bprophets, and for the cgathering of his dsaints to stand upon eMount Zion, which shall be the city of fNew Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be abuilt, beginning at the btemple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and cdedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city aNew Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which btemple shall be creared in this dgeneration.
5 For verily this generation shall not all apass away until an bhouse shall be built unto the Lord, and a ccloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the dglory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

Now, it appears, according to Joseph Smith it was a revelation of the Lord as he spoken by the mouth of his prophets…

Who’s wrong now, zerinus or Joseph Smith?

One false prophesy, makes a false prophet
.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

This thread seems to be moving now. I am bumping once more in hopes someone will comment on this false prophesy, or so it appears to be, before the subject gets buried again. If no one wants to comment, then it needs to be seen by anyone who has actually been considering what has been said here.

God Bless,
Prodigal Son1

 

[zerinus]

Then what my mother told me is wrong. She happens to be Mormon and says that there are indeed some paid member of the Church.

They are very few. There are some who necessarily devote their whole time to the Church, and they get a very small amount of money for their support, which is usually a lot less than they would be getting if they worked in their chosen fields of profession. What is certain is that we have absolutely no professional clergy. That is to say, nobody ever goes to college or the seminary to train to become a lifelong Mormon cleric. No such thing exists. People who rise to the top and have to devote their whole time to the work of the Church are always very successful men of varying professions; and they have to sacrifice a lot financially to give up their professions to become fultime officers of the Church. And they are a tiny minority compared to the rest of the clerical ministry of the Church, who do not get paid at all. On the contrary, they even contribute financially to the Church by their tithes and offerings, as other Church members are required to do.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

This thread seems to be moving now. I am bumping once more in hopes someone will comment on this false prophesy, or so it appears to be, before the subject gets buried again. If no one wants to comment, then it needs to be seen by anyone who has actually been considering what has been said here.

God Bless,
Prodigal Son1

You are wasting your time. Like I said, I will not be answering your questions any more. Others may answer them for you if they wish; but it won’t be me.

zerinus

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You are wasting your time. Like I said, I will not be answering your questions any more. Others may answer them for you if they wish; but it won’t be me.

zerinus

I understand, it appears you’ve said too much already. If it hadn’t been for your obstinance, I might never had dug deep enough to find the real truth behind the failed prophesy. At least I did get the truth on Joseph Smith.

One failed prophesy, makes a false prophet.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1