Are Lying and Deception Always Sinful?

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Yes it is a sin to lie…always. scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm#III

But one can use certain licit “mental reservations”…“discreet language”.

Now lets say one is in the very serious event of the Nazi at the door… and one can not find those discreet words…and others lives are at stake …and one thus ends up lying. What then? Well of course one should have found the other way. But in our weakness we sin …indeed we commit venial sins daily …hence they are called at times “daily sins” for which we pray daily “forgive us our trespasses”…and certainly ones culpability will likely be even further reduced by the event of the Nazi’s with the guns at your door…so ones venial sin will be reduced to an even smaller venial sin…which God in his knowing mercy can wipe away as one glances at the Crucifix with prayer after the Nazi’s leave…

God knows that in our seeking to live the varied virtues in our lives we will have venial sins in the process…that we being “saints” …being a new creation in Christ in the state of grace…in charity …living in Christ will still have “daily sins” to pray for. He loves us and continues to purify us with his love. (Not that such is an excuse to not seek to overcome our sins more and more in our lives …nor ought we seek or plan to lie in this case …but rather seek to find the right way)

Now all this does not make it “good” to lie. Or not a sin to lie. Nor does the ends in this circumstance “justify” the means of the lie. It remains a lie. A sin. But so too does the intemperance that one exhibited that morning at breakfast with too many eggs or the little anger one expressed at ones spouse that afternoon. If one falls here too…it will be another venial sin. Another weakness. Something that ought not have happened. One ought to have found a good way.

But it is somewhat understandable that it may happen in such events of Nazi’s at the door… even to Christians. To saints.

And there is really no point in trying to argue too much about such…
 
Bookcat, I disagree with you about the non-contradiction but I am pleased you mentioned it 😃

The question is simple: If the Nazis kicked down your door and demanded to know where 100 jews were hiding would you lie or would you tell them? It’s a yes or no answer 😉
I’m not saying for a moment it’s easy.

Dude
 
biglebowski said:
Bookcat, I disagree with you about the non-contradiction but I am pleased you mentioned it 😃
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One cannot do an action and thereby commit both a sin and an act of virtue.

Anyhow no need for us to take the tread off its tracks. 🙂
 
You all are mixing up two different concepts: that of an intrinsic evil and that of personal sin.

Lying itself is evil. But if you fear for your life or the lives of others, the personal guilt can be mitigated. Thus it might not be a mortal sin, since “full consent” might not be present.
 
surritter said:
You all are mixing up two different concepts: that of an intrinsic evil and that of personal sin.

Lying itself is evil. But if you fear for your life or the lives of others, the personal guilt can be mitigated. Thus it might not be a mortal sin, since “full consent” might not be present.
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Many sins of lying are venial (lying under oath is good example of mortal).

It would be venial. See post above.
 
Bookcat said:
Many sins of lying are venial (lying under oath is good example of mortal).

It would be venial. See post above.
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OK, noted. I guess I was pushing back on those who are saying that it’s not even an intrinsic evil, as long as something good comes out of it (i.e., saving lives). That is not true.
 
Therefore what is the right course for a Catholic to follow? Should he or she tell the Nazis where the Jews are hiding or not? I would not personally tell them where the Jews were hiding.

Dude
 
surritter said:
OK, noted. I guess I was pushing back on those who are saying that it’s not even an intrinsic evil, as long as something good comes out of it (i.e., saving lives). That is not true.
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It is an still an evil.
 
With respect, that’s waffle. Would you tell the Nazis or not? Yes or No? It’s a simple question.

The Nazis would not allow pontification and it really is a simple question.

Dude
 
biglebowski said:
With respect, that’s waffle. Would you tell the Nazis or not? Yes or No? It’s a simple question.

The Nazis would not allow pontification and it really is a simple question.

Dude
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It is neither a waffle nor a pancake.

*I am not there here and now. *

My intent is to always do the good. To find the right words.

But I am not confronted with such “hic et nunc” so no answer can be given except that above line.

And I imagine various ways of licit “mental reservations” …“discreet language” were used historically.
 
“hic et nunc” , “mental reservations”, “discreet language”…flowery platitudes but totally meaningless. Unworkable, impractical: a smoke screen.

I respect your unwillingness to answer the question. Lets leave it at that.

Dude
 
biglebowski said:
“hic et nunc” , “mental reservations”, “discreet language”…flowery platitudes but totally meaningless. Unworkable, impractical: a smoke screen.

I respect your unwillingness to answer the question. Lets leave it at that shall we.

Dude
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I have willingly answered the question with great detail and with depth of meaning.

and I referred to CCC article.

Have a nice night.
 
jannes said:
How about lying to someone who demands to know your personal business.Like asking are you a virgin? or how much money do you have in the bank?Or when did you last have sex with your spouse? There are people who do this and If its none of their busines to ask I don’t think its a lie to not tell them the truth…I also don’t think it’s a sin to tell them to buzz off.Also Many people would have died horrible deaths throughout history even Christians if some people didn’t cover for them by lying .You don’t have to tell the truth to EVERYONE who asks you a question, it depends on their reason for asking .If a thief beat up my wife and me and demanded to know where were my valuables were, am I supposed to tell them? I don’t think so that would be abetting a crime.Same as the Holocaust victims who refused to give up their neighbours. they would have committed a much worse sin helping the murderers complete their crimes.
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I have met many people like this before and the way I deal with them is to simply say “I don’t answer personal questions to people who are not my friends.”

As far as lying goes, I can see a need in some cases, however the truth is that if Nazi’s are at your door asking if you are hiding Jews, you are toast no matter what you answer because they are going to look if you tell them to or not.

I also find it funny how many people get themselves in trouble each year lying to police about silly stuff. If police come to my door, I go outside, locking the door behind me, and say “I have nothing to say” to any questions they ask. If they ask to look around my house, I tell them “I cannot let you inside without a warrant.”

Same thing if I am out driving and am pulled over. I do try to be friendly, however if they start asking questions I don’t like, I will not answer them. If they ask me to get out of my car, I lock it behind me, and tell them “I do not consent to any searches”

I learned one thing from talking to a friend of mine who is a cop, and these are his own words. “How does a fish get caught?” A: IT OPENS ITS MOUTH!
 
jannes said:
How about lying to someone who demands to know your personal business.Like asking are you a virgin? or how much money do you have in the bank?Or when did you last have sex with your spouse? There are people who do this and If its none of their busines to ask I don’t think its a lie to not tell them the truth…I also don’t think it’s a sin to tell them to buzz off.
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Your last sentence gives the right solution. If anyone asked me any of those questions I’d tell them to mind their own business. There is absolutely no reason to lie in any of these circumstances.

In that event I think a lie would be a sin. It is untrue; it is unnecessary.
 
surritter said:
There have been LOTS of threads about lying. But one of the best explanations I’ve seen about morality and lying was an article by Janet Smith in First Things:
firstthings.com/article/2011/05/fig-leaves-and-falsehoods

It’s interesting to follow the logic. Lying itself is wrong, but she posits that because of the fall of Adam, the “perfectness” of truth-telling is also modified. A good read!
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Excellent and thought-provoking! I’ll have to think about this for a long time. I liked the example of the soldier. It’s not OK to lie [the strategically placed tent] but it’s OK to kill your enemy if you hide. The sins of lying and killing in one scenario!?!

OK we could argue that it is a sin to murder, but not to kill when justified. But if we can justify killing in certain circumstances then why not lying?

Perhaps in such circumstances we could call lying, ‘untruthing’ or somesuch and bring it into line with the differentiation of murdering and killing. :confused:
 
Bookcat said:
It is an still an evil.
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I disagree.

Church recognizes two evils:
  1. Physical evil
  2. Moral evil
In philosophy, the meaning of evil is a “real privation”.

There are two kinds of evil:
  1. PHYSICAL: The absence of some property in a body which it ought to have - ie: blindness; mental/physical pain; diseases… God can be the indirect or direct cause of such because of the fall of man., but to bring about a greater good. When God created everything, all things had what they ought to have had (what they needed). God gave man free will, and because of man’s evil morals (sin), physical evil came into the world. Man was warned ahead of time, but freely chose the path that led to privation and death.
  2. MORAL EVIL: Only found in beings endowed with freedom (i.e. “Free wil”). It is the absence of right order in some action performed: i.e., Personal sin. This, as Paul acknowledges in 2 Thess 2:7 is “the mystery of inequity” (or lawlessness).
So, with the explanations of what is “evil”, how can anyone equate not giving up the hiding place of innocents from murderous people as being evil? The person who “lied” by not revealing such, is not sinning and it is not evil. No harm was done to anyone, either physical or spiritual.

For those who say it is a sin to tell an untruth (lie) no matter what, are not really understanding the teachings. In that case, even if the person refused to reveal the whereabouts of those hiding from the Nazi’s, then in your rigid thinking, they are also guilty of lying by committing the “sin of omission”.

Think about what Jesus would have done: would He look at you and call you a Pharisee for being so stringent and unyielding and rigid?

Something to ponder…
 
P.S. Addendum:

There are several examples in Scripture where people lied and were even rewarded by God:

Jacob lied to his father claiming to be Esau so as to receive the “firstborn” blessing.

Judith prayed asking God to make her a good liar, and thus lied to Holoferness and was commended - not punished. (Judith 9:10, 13; 15:10-11)

In Ex. 1:21, the midwives lied in order to save the newborn baby boys destined for death at the hands of Pharoah, but instead were rewarded by God.
 
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