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He_Man
Guest
He Man 1:1 - I was being somewhat facetious.
As long as you can honestly answer every question ever posed to you from every person from birth til natural death, and avoid every occasion of deceit (speeding is both breaking the law and deceit, especially if you slow down when you see a cop, hoping they don’t notice what you were just doing…), you are good to go.
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AndyCothran
Guest
Only God and Mr More can answer the latter question …
What i am stating is that human beings must sometimes choose between the lesser of two evils ,
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NSFrame
Guest
The question of the categorical imperative…
I personally do not subscribe to that particular philosphy. The exact example of the Jews hiding in your house and the Nazis asking you whether they were there or not was the same one used in my freshman Hum class when we studied Kant.
I’m sorry but there is no tap-dancing around the question “are there Jewish people in this house, yes or no?” when you are faced with armed, brainwashed soldiers. The fact that, as a general rule, lying is a sin would do nothing to deter me from making up every hare-brained story I could come up with to get rid of them and prevent the deaths of the Jews in my care as well as myself and my family. To do otherwise would make me complicit in the murder or at least the imprisonment of innocent human beings - which is also a sin, and a rather horrible one as well.
I personally do not subscribe to that particular philosphy. The exact example of the Jews hiding in your house and the Nazis asking you whether they were there or not was the same one used in my freshman Hum class when we studied Kant.
I’m sorry but there is no tap-dancing around the question “are there Jewish people in this house, yes or no?” when you are faced with armed, brainwashed soldiers. The fact that, as a general rule, lying is a sin would do nothing to deter me from making up every hare-brained story I could come up with to get rid of them and prevent the deaths of the Jews in my care as well as myself and my family. To do otherwise would make me complicit in the murder or at least the imprisonment of innocent human beings - which is also a sin, and a rather horrible one as well.
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Daniel49
Guest
Not everyone is deserving of the truth and so it is not necessarily sinful to tell a lie. As a matter of fact, under some circumstances it would be sinful not to tell the appropriate lie.
One obvious example is the following:
You are harboring Jews in your attic in WW2 Germany. The SS knocks on your door and asks, “Are there any Jews here at this address; are you harboring any Jews here?”
The only correct and moral answer to that question is the lie “no, I am not harboring any Jews nor are there any Jews at this address”.
This issue is covered in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
2488 says:
“The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.”
furthermore, 2489 says:
“Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.”
Daniel49
One obvious example is the following:
You are harboring Jews in your attic in WW2 Germany. The SS knocks on your door and asks, “Are there any Jews here at this address; are you harboring any Jews here?”
The only correct and moral answer to that question is the lie “no, I am not harboring any Jews nor are there any Jews at this address”.
This issue is covered in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
2488 says:
“The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.”
furthermore, 2489 says:
“Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.”
Daniel49
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Castello
Guest
Discreet language and silence are NOT lies.
A lie is always always always a sin. The Catechism and Scripture are clear.
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Speedypizza
Guest
The worst part about all of this is how silly this fight really is. First of all, we are NOT living in Germany under Hitler and IF anybody on here has Jews hiding in their attic they really should let them out and explain to them that they don’t need to hide in your attic anymore as the year is 2012 and they are safe to leave now. (If they really like your attic however, feel free to rent it to them at a good rate. 
)
On a more serious note, how is this for how I would answer the question by Nazi’s if asked: (in very sarcastic tone, rolling eyes.) “Please, I hope you are kidding me, you think I would let vermin into my house?”
Not only have I not lied, but I have just made the Nazi’s have less of a reason to suspect me, as in their minds I am a good little German who hates Jews. The truth of the matter however is that in real life, if the Germans were asking you, they already suspect you, and are going to come in and look no matter what you say. Even IF they were just randomly going house to house asking this, they would not be listening to the words as much as looking for body language that would give you away. The truth is I doubt I could pull off my sarcastic answer very well under those circumstances.
)On a more serious note, how is this for how I would answer the question by Nazi’s if asked: (in very sarcastic tone, rolling eyes.) “Please, I hope you are kidding me, you think I would let vermin into my house?”
Not only have I not lied, but I have just made the Nazi’s have less of a reason to suspect me, as in their minds I am a good little German who hates Jews. The truth of the matter however is that in real life, if the Germans were asking you, they already suspect you, and are going to come in and look no matter what you say. Even IF they were just randomly going house to house asking this, they would not be listening to the words as much as looking for body language that would give you away. The truth is I doubt I could pull off my sarcastic answer very well under those circumstances.
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He_Man
Guest
So deception is okay, but lying directly is not. Just to be clear.The worst part about all of this is how silly this fight really is. First of all, we are NOT living in Germany under Hitler and IF anybody on here has Jews hiding in their attic they really should let them out and explain to them that they don’t need to hide in your attic anymore as the year is 2012 and they are safe to leave now. (If they really like your attic however, feel free to rent it to them at a good rate.
On a more serious note, how is this for how I would answer the question by Nazi’s if asked: (in very sarcastic tone, rolling eyes.) “Please, I hope you are kidding me, you think I would let vermin into my house?”
Not only have I not lied, but I have just made the Nazi’s have less of a reason to suspect me, as in their minds I am a good little German who hates Jews. The truth of the matter however is that in real life, if the Germans were asking you, they already suspect you, and are going to come in and look no matter what you say. Even IF they were just randomly going house to house asking this, they would not be listening to the words as much as looking for body language that would give you away. The truth is I doubt I could pull off my sarcastic answer very well under those circumstances.
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Speedypizza
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I believe that deception would be okay under those extreme circumstances. However I am not 100% sure what is the TECHNICAL right or wrong answer. How is this for you, if these circumstances DID ever come about, I don’t think anybody on here KNOWS WHAT they would really do. It is like 1000 other hypothetical stories we can talk about round and round in a circle all day, but we just don’t know until we are there WHAT we would do.
Also everybody here seems to forget something very important in all of this. The ultimate being who is going to judge us is the creator of the universe, He knows everything and he knows all circumstances. I will tell you this, and I don’t really care WHAT the Catechism says about it. I WOULD DO ANYTHING IN MY POWER TO SAVE LIVES. Are you REALLY telling me that you would rather stand before your maker guilty of NOT protecting life then guilty of being deceitful to some thugs? Jesus himself condemned people for being overly rigid in the law…
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Bookcat
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The Catechism is NOT speaking of lying there. It condemned lying just a few lines before.
It then notes Jesus speaking of the Devil as the “father of lies”.
It is speaking in the above of silence…or “discreet language” etc not lies.
As to the Nazi question note I would note I have my answer above.
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Bookcat
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CEM5
Guest
Well stated! And in such a circumstance, not a sin. If people would continue to read what comes after those quoted CCC statements, this is what is written: (***bolded ***by me for emphasis)
CCC 2488
The* right to the communication* of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.
CCC 2489
Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every* request for infromation or communication*. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy,*** and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language***, The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion.*** No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it. ***
So we see that when people take things out of context and/or do not continue to read further, they don’t see the whole message.
Therefore, we are not bound to reveal “truth” to anyone with evil intentions in order to protect and guard “The good and safety of others” and " the common good".
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CEM5
Guest
David was not richly rewarded for committing adultery and murder. He was punished. His firstborn child with Bathsheba was taken from him by God. David was reprimanded by God’s prophet. David repented and was sorry for his sins. Then David was blessed.
Now, those others (i.e. Judith, Jacob…) were not punished for their lies. In fact, Judith prayed to be very good at lying in order to save her people, and she was rewarded - never once was she punished, nor did she have to repent. Same with the midwives: they were not reprimanded by God nor were they punished: Instead God blessed and rewarded them. As the CCC 2489 states they were protecting “The good and safety of others” and " the common good".
That is a big difference from what David did.
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CEM5
Guest
Yes, that would be a good way to deceive them using such duplicitous phrases and being dissimulate. Duplicity and dissimulation (to disguise or conceal under a false appearance) is also condemned by the CCC teachings.The worst part about all of this is how silly this fight really is. First of all, we are NOT living in Germany under Hitler and IF anybody on here has Jews hiding in their attic they really should let them out and explain to them that they don’t need to hide in your attic anymore as the year is 2012 and they are safe to leave now. (If they really like your attic however, feel free to rent it to them at a good rate.
On a more serious note, how is this for how I would answer the question by Nazi’s if asked: (in very sarcastic tone, rolling eyes.) “Please, I hope you are kidding me, you think I would let vermin into my house?”
Not only have I not lied, but I have just made the Nazi’s have less of a reason to suspect me, as in their minds I am a good little German who hates Jews. The truth of the matter however is that in real life, if the Germans were asking you, they already suspect you, and are going to come in and look no matter what you say. Even IF they were just randomly going house to house asking this, they would not be listening to the words as much as looking for body language that would give you away. The truth is I doubt I could pull off my sarcastic answer very well under those circumstances.
CCC 2468
Truth as uprightness in human action and speech is called* truthfulness*, sincerity, or candor. Truth or truthfulness is the virtue which consists in showing oneself true in deeds and truthful in words, and in guarding against duplicity, dissimulation, and hypocrisy.
When we read further, we are made clear as to what “truth” God calls us to;
CCC 2470
The disciple of Christ consents to “live in the truth”, that is, in the simplicity of a life in comformity with the Lord’s example, abiding in His truth. "If we say we have fellowship with Him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth." 1 Jn 1:6
Let us not forget, or keep out of mind, that these teachings regarding truth stem from the Eighth Commandment
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”
It was said to the men of old, “You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.”
Teachings should always be studied in context as a whole and not pick out phrases here and there.
In whole, it would not be a sin to safeguard and protect the innocent from the evil intentions of others by any means. This includes killing to defend and protect the lives of those threatened by evil as the Church teaches.
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Frankk
Guest
Returning to the Nazi scenario. It is not permitted to lie about whether there are Jews in your house.
On the other hand, if the Nazi comes to your house with the intent to kill you, you can kill him. This is justified because the proper translation of the Commandment is thou shalt not ‘murder’; murder and killing being seen as different things.
In my CCC (1995 edn.) §2266 the death penalty is permitted in cases of extreme gravity. In later editions it is still permitted but the wording has changed to suggest this would be unlikely.
Nevertheless we have a seeming contradiction where taking someone’s life is permitted in certain circumstances - but lying never is, even where this was to save someone else’s life.
There seems to be something fundamentally flawed with the reasoning behind this [whatever that may be?]
On the other hand, if the Nazi comes to your house with the intent to kill you, you can kill him. This is justified because the proper translation of the Commandment is thou shalt not ‘murder’; murder and killing being seen as different things.
In my CCC (1995 edn.) §2266 the death penalty is permitted in cases of extreme gravity. In later editions it is still permitted but the wording has changed to suggest this would be unlikely.
Nevertheless we have a seeming contradiction where taking someone’s life is permitted in certain circumstances - but lying never is, even where this was to save someone else’s life.
There seems to be something fundamentally flawed with the reasoning behind this [whatever that may be?]
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surritter
Guest
“So we see that when people take things out of context…”
You must realize that the quotes you give from the CCC simply say that it’s licit to avoid telling the truth. That is not license to lie. Notice the difference?
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surritter
Guest
Excellent point, Frank. The dilemma boils down to this: If we lie to the Nazis to protect the innocent, we are doing something objectively wrong, according to the CCC. However, if we don’t lie to them, in order to comply with this teaching, they will come into the house and start shooting, at which point we may use deadly force against them in order to protect the innocent. This latter option is permitted by the CCC, under the principle of “double effect,” whereby we didn’t intend to murder, but it became necessary.
I do see an inconsistency in that scenario: Killing = OK (to protect the Jews), but lying = wrong (to protect the Jews). I’m going based simply on the CCC. My personal views continue to flip-flop throughout this thread!
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Bookcat
Guest
The Catechism is **NOT **speaking of lying there. It **condemned **lying just a few lines before.
It then notes Jesus speaking of the Devil as the “father of lies”.
It is speaking in the above of silence…or “discreet language” etc not lies.
As to the Nazi question note I would note I have my answer above.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281** The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil**: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282
2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.
2485** By its very nature, lying is to be condemned**…
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Bookcat
Guest
Such does not mean that what they did was good. Period.
“God’s plan is manifested progressively and it is accomplished slowly, in successive stages and despite human resistance. God chose a people and patiently worked to guide and educate them. Revelation is suited to the cultural and moral level of distant times and thus describes facts and customs, such as cheating and trickery, and acts of violence and massacre, without explicitly denouncing the immorality of such things. This can be explained by the historical context…”
-Pope Benedict XVI Verbum Domini
The passages noted do NOT make lying ok or good…does not make immoral things into moral just because at that point in history God was working patiently and progressively with a “blunt instrument”.
Jesus later clearly in the fullness of revelation notes that it is the Devil who is the Father of Lies…
And His Church (the authentic interpreter of Sacred Scripture) teaches that lying in its very nature is to be condemned.
Now again…can it happen that one in hiding someone from the Nazi’s that one is not able in that moment find the right way and ends up telling a lie (venial sin greatly mitigated)? Yes such could happen. And would God know our weakness and quickly forgive us. Sure. But such does not make telling a lie into a good act. The intention can not make it so nor the circumstance. I should have found the right way…(and I intended to!) but in my weakness I did not at that moment and I slipped into a lie…similar to my other venial sins that day that in my weakness I slipped into…
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Bookcat
Guest
Again read the text prior. Lying is* condemned* in its very nature.
The good intention or the circumstance here is not going to make the lie into a “good”.
Also from the Catechism:
**1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. **The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39
1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.
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