Are Lying and Deception Always Sinful?

[CEM5]

The Catechism is **NOT **speaking of lying there. It **condemned **lying just a few lines before.

It then notes Jesus speaking of the Devil as the “father of lies”.

It is speaking in the above of silence…or “discreet language” etc not lies.

As to the Nazi question note I would note I have my answer above.

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Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281** The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil**: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485** By its very nature**, lying is to be condemned…

Why did you omit CCC 2483? Also, why did you omit the rest of 2485?

CCC 2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error someone who has the right to know the truth. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

CCC 2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation (desecration; defilement; debasement; Synonyms: sacrilege, blasphemy) of speech,* whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. *The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray. l)

You see that by omitting verses from the Catechism that pertain to explaining what “truth” is referred to here, (truth of who God is, who the Saviour is…) you also deceive (maybe unintentionally) those people who read your posts. "The “deadly consequences for those who are led astray” pertains to the truth of salvation in Christ, and anything (any lie) that leads a person away from that truth.

So, in the Gospel of John 8, we get a clear picture when read in context of what the CCC was quoting.

For example:

The “father of lies” since he was a murderer from the beginning, John 8:44) as the quote continues in the Scriptures. You cannot take things out of context. Exegesis is a requirement. The Devil lied about God and God’s truth. The devil is a deceiver since the beginning and continues to try to deceive mankind into believing lies about who God is and what God has done/and does for us. As in Scripture, those who denied who Christ is, tried to deceive others and lied about Jesus, and this “lie” continues today.

Here is Scripture in context: (pay attention especially to vss 42 - 51
John 8…

21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.” to be continued…(too long for this post)

 

[CEM5]

Continued from above post…

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.**”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Jesus’ Claims About Himself
48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”**

I am not condoning all lies! Most lies are viscious and harmful, nonetheless, just as there is rigtheous anger, righteous killing, there too, can be righteous lies.

For example: If I were in WWII and I was hiding Jewish people in my premises, and a Nazi came to me asking if I was hiding anyone in my home/premises, I would tell them I was not since if I refused to answer, they would immediately become suspicious and search my premises. I would be culpable in those innocents’ murders.

What would you do if you knew unequivocally that your silence or “discreet language” would result in apprehension of those innocents and their ensuing murders, whereas by “lying” you saved their lives?

 

[CEM5]

OK folks, - - - you win the argument. I have learned. G-d forbid I ever need to harbor Jews (or anyone else being persecuted by a government). What I have learned to do here (and it will be consistent with my Catholic teachings) is this -

When asked if there are Jews in my attic (as a metaphor) I will preserve my soul and lead the cadre of troops directly up to the Jews.

Thanks for the enlightenment. I do not want any damage to happen to me or my soul.

Daniel49

Hi Daniel49,

Please read my posts just above this one. I hope it clarifies things, and you can realize that you could “lie” to save innocents.

Judith in the OT lied and even prayed to be a good liar/deceiver in order to save her people. God answered and even rewarded her.

The midwives lying about their reason for not killing newborn baby boys was rewarded by God.

So, one has to understand the content and keep things in context when trying to understand not only Scripture, but what the Church teaches in the Catechism.

 

[Bookcat]

Why did you omit CCC 2483? Also, why did you omit the rest of 2485?

I linked the whole thing up above…

 

[Bookcat]

I am not condoning all lies!.. there too, can be righteous lies.

The Catholic Church disagrees. (in the sense of any “lies” being good)

Again read the text prior. Lying is condemned in its very nature.

The good intention or the circumstance here is not going to make the lie into a “good”.

Also from the Catechism:

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means…

Lying is simply intrinsically disordered.

That being said. Please read the rest of my posts.

It is not that one is to “tell the truth” as to where the Jews are hiding…I would say that would be gravely wrong.

And again…we fall into venal sins daily…and faced with such a choice we might in our weakness lie…

 

[Daniel49]

Hi Daniel49,

Please read my posts just above this one. I hope it clarifies things, and you can realize that you could “lie” to save innocents.

Judith in the OT lied and even prayed to be a good liar/deceiver in order to save her people. God answered and even rewarded her.

The midwives lying about their reason for not killing newborn baby boys was rewarded by God.

So, one has to understand the content and keep things in context when trying to understand not only Scripture, but what the Church teaches in the Catechism.

Hi CEM,

I understand. I know about Judith and her works to save her people and G-ds response to that. I think that the poor understanding of the concept being discussed is really with some other folks here. When I said that I have learned the truth, I was using a “device” (sarcasm) to help make my point (or maybe it was a lie?).

I certainly would not lead anyone to a group of people that are being protected (by myself or anyone else). Others would. That is a dangerous understanding of Catholic teachings.

Daniel49

 

[surritter]

Lying is simply intrinsically disordered.

Hold on, 'cat. We all get it that lying by its very nature is evil. But maybe CEM5 brings up a good point: let’s analyze the very definition of lying.

2483 says that “to lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error.”

The last part of that statement seems to actually qualify or narrow a lie so that it’s not just any untruth, but rather an untruth that leads someone to do or believe something bad.

So if we lie to the Nazis, are we leading them into error? Maybe not, because arresting the Jews would be very erroneous on their part. The mistruth given at the door is actually helping the Jews and the Nazis to live within the truth of God’s law.

I don’t know … I’m just tossing this out there.

 

[Speedypizza]

This is so silly I am not even going to bother any more. All people can do is quote the CCC and not give clear answers to where a problem might exist, once again, the example I gave of a priest. I am not even sure how to respond to people who keep saying the same thing over and over again, without doing the same.

You have explained why you think I am wrong, and I have explained why I think you are wrong. I have tried to laugh about it, and I have tried to explain in clear language that there are deeper issues at work here. I have said that I see where you are coming from, and why I think you are wrong. Sadly you are unwilling to do the same in return.

Nothing is going to be resolved in this way, because you have nothing new to say. I could keep re-posting my beliefs just as you do, however that is below me. I have nothing further to say on this issue.

Pax

 

[CEM5]

I have a degree in Theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville…(with honors if that helps…)

Congratulations!

Now, here is more in content about the teaching of lying, and God’s truths, and even mentions the atrocities committed in war:

From the Vatican site:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/peace/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20051213_xxxix-world-day-peace_en.html

1. Who and what, then, can prevent the coming of peace? Sacred Scripture, in its very first book, Genesis, points to the lie told at the very beginning of history by the animal with a forked tongue, whom the Evangelist John calls ‘‘the father of lies’’ (Jn 8:44). Lying is also one of the sins spoken of in the final chapter of the last book of the Bible, Revelation, which bars liars from the heavenly Jerusalem: ‘‘outside are… all who love falsehood’’ (22:15). Lying is linked to the tragedy of sin and its perverse consequences, which have had, and continue to have, devastating effects on the lives of individuals and nations. We need but think of the events of the past century, when aberrant ideological and political systems wilfully twisted the truth and brought about the exploitation and murder of an appalling number of men and women, wiping out entire families and communities. After experiences like these, how can we fail to be seriously concerned about lies in our own time,** lies which are the framework for menacing scenarios of death in many parts of the world.** Any authentic search for peace must begin with the realization that the problem of truth and untruth is the concern of every man and woman; it is decisive for the peaceful future of our planet.
2. Peace is an irrepressible yearning present in the heart of each person, regardless of his or her particular cultural identity. Consequently, everyone should feel committed to service of this great good,** and should strive to prevent any form of untruth from poisoning relationships**…** In a particular way, the followers of Christ, recognizing the insidious presence of evil and the need for that liberation brought by the divine Master, look to him with confidence**, in the knowledge that ‘‘he committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips’’ (1 Pet 2:22; cf. Is 53:9). Jesus defined himself as the Truth in person, and, in addressing the seer of the Book of Revelation, he states his complete aversion to ‘‘every one who loves and practices falsehood’’ (Rev 22:15).** He has disclosed the full truth about humanity and about human history**. The power of his grace makes it possible to live ‘‘in’’ and ‘‘by’’ truth, since he alone is completely true and faithful. Jesus is the truth which gives us peace..

We are to uphold the truth of who God is, who Jesus is, and those lies and deceptions that lead others astray are the “lies” that are condemned. Lies that bear false witness (Eigth commandment) against our neighbours, purgury, destroy a person’s good name and such that lead to evil, are what the Church condemns and teaches that we are to avoid.

I am a Catechist and also got honours. Does that count?

 

[Bookcat]

Hold on, 'cat. We all get it that lying by its very nature is evil. But maybe CEM5 brings up a good point: let’s analyze the very definition of lying.

2483 says that “to lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error.”

The last part of that statement seems to actually qualify or narrow a lie so that it’s not just any untruth, but rather an untruth that leads someone to do or believe something bad.

So if we lie to the Nazis, are we leading them into error? Maybe not, because arresting the Jews would be very erroneous on their part. The mistruth given at the door is actually helping the Jews and the Nazis to live within the truth of God’s law.

I don’t know … I’m just tossing this out there.

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means…

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism:

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means…

 

[CEM5]

I linked the whole thing up above…

No you didn’t in the post I quoted.

 

[Bookcat]

No you didn’t in the post I quoted.

So?

I quoted various parts at diffferent times

 

[CEM5]

Catechism:

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means…

And there is a BIG difference between “helping” a neighbor and “saving” the life of a neighbor.

 

[CEM5]

So?

I quoted various parts at diffferent times

It is very deceptive, and misleading, that’s why.

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism:

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means…

Got to run.

The above makes it clear.

 

[CEM5]

Hi CEM,

I understand. I know about Judith and her works to save her people and G-ds response to that. I think that the poor understanding of the concept being discussed is really with some other folks here. When I said that I have learned the truth, I was using a “device” (sarcasm) to help make my point (or maybe it was a lie?).

I certainly would not lead anyone to a group of people that are being protected (by myself or anyone else). Others would. That is a dangerous understanding of Catholic teachings.

Daniel49

I agree with you Daniel and thanks for the clarification - glad to know you were being facetious!

 

[CEM5]

Hold on, 'cat. We all get it that lying by its very nature is evil. But maybe CEM5 brings up a good point: let’s analyze the very definition of lying.

2483 says that “to lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error.”

The last part of that statement seems to actually qualify or narrow a lie so that it’s not just any untruth, but rather an untruth that leads someone to do or believe something bad.

So if we lie to the Nazis, are we leading them into error? Maybe not, because arresting the Jews would be very erroneous on their part. The mistruth given at the door is actually helping the Jews and the Nazis to live within the truth of God’s law.

I don’t know … I’m just tossing this out there.

Yay surritter! :clapping: I am glad that you pointed that out and “get it”! It is what I have been trying to relay. Thanks!

 

[Daniel49]

Monicad,

You are right. The Catechism covers this topic very clearly and your recollections are spot on. It even refers to things such as trade secrets, and so forth as you mention.

Here is an intersting twist to the discussion - - -

Is being sarcastic a form of lying? I do that all the time; am I in grave peril?

Daniel49

 

[surritter]

Out of respect for the truth, we need to be truthful. However that only extends to people that are entitled to know the truth. If I ask an employee of Kentucky Fried Chicken for the Colonel’s recipe I am not entitled to that information! Nazis were not entitled to know where Jews were hiding.

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church I can’t find mine right now but it has a wonderful section on lying but also extents to the truth and respect for the truth and covers all of this in detail. Blessings.

Oh, boy … you need to read the last half-dozen pages of this thread! The Catechism actually says that you may of course tell someone that something is none of their business, but you may never lie. Read past posts before replying! Maybe not every post, but a page or two will give you some idea. Also make sure you’re looking at the current edition of the Catechism, not the first one from 1995, because they tweaked paragraph 2483.