Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

[Calvin_95]

There were only two apostles named James: one is the son of Alpheus and the other the son of Zebedee. Was Mary the mother of Jesus married to one of those or did she commit adultery? Soon or later you will have to give up your erroneous understand of Scriptures brother.

You are correct; he is not an Apostle, one of the 12. He would be like a Barnabus or Mark or Silas, an apostle

I would also not recognize this Mary who is worshiped. That shows your miserable understanding of Catholicism.
Why don’t take at least an hour or two learn instead of trying to teach that what you don’t understand?

placido

17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. - Galatians 1

4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. – 1 Cor. 15

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Sorry I capitalized the “A”; that was an error on my part; should have been a lower case "a".**

 

[Calvin_95]

Dear Friend in Christ,

Actually, Catholics now do study Reformation theology and I know one priest who has earned a doctorate in such and has written a study on justification by faith.

As St Thomas Aquinas said, “All truth, regardless of who speaks it, comes from the Holy Spirit.”

Yes, there are many points on which Catholics and others can agree with John Calvin.

I am simply pointing out that as a Protestant theologian, Calvin accepted that Mary was Ever-Virgin and also her title of “Theotokos” or “Bearer/Mother of God.”

It is simply a contemporary myth that the Reformers rejected large “T” Tradition based on the early Councils of the Church. They did not and Luther and Lutherans have always affirmed they accept the teachings of the first Seven Ecumenical Councils. Calvin, together with all other Reformers of his day, rejected the idea that Mary had other children.

The only person who made the claim that Mary had other children was a man in the fourth century and St Jerome, who translated the Bible, refuted him. I will find the link to Jerome’s letter and will post it here.

God bless you

Alex

You would fare much better to focus on the Word of God and not of men.

 

[Calvin_95]

How do you seperate what God has said from God? Is Scripture God? No Is Scriputre part of God? Yes Thi si s why the writer of Hebrews says the Scripture is both living and active. Think about it; don’t respond because I will be moving along after I have addressed the rest. This whole theology of Maryology is quite scary to me.

 

[graceandglory]

Revisionist and/or imaginationary history? Read the plain words of Mary and Jesus; it is not too difficult to understand; very straightforeword that an unbeliever can understand. She called God her SAVIOR; saved from what? Sin. Who has sin? Sinners. Anyone want to challenge these facts? Good luck.

God is Mary’s Savior. She was saved from sin so that she could be the tabernacle, the very dwelling place of the LORD GOD.

New International Version (©1984)
“‘You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place, which is among them.’”

Leviticus 15:31

If Mary was sinful then GOD’S dwelling place, her womb, would have been DEFILED.
(According to Scripture)
So, therefore, she had to have been preserved from Original Sin, just as Adam and Eve were.

God’s pretty powerful that way.

 

[placido]

Only those who love the pure word of God; will love the humility of the birth mother of Jesus, called Mary; who recognized her need for humility before God and her desperate need for a Savior and the privledge God gave to her by choosing her among any he could have created. That is the kind of love Mary showed; respect for the word of God and for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. What you call love is total disrespect for Mary and for God in my humble opinion. To worship someone/something other than God is a grave sin according to Scripture; not me, but Scripture. Thank God for the elect of God who can who have eyes to see and ears to hear, which Mary was a shining example…

Good that you talk about love. Now practice it. Catholics do not worship Mary (or any thing other that God for that matter).
It seems you can’t have honest disagreement without making false statements about us. Is that the love you talk about?
If you know LOVE, you should desist from misrepresenting our faith. I repeat CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY or “something other than God”.

placido

 

[Calvin_95]

Hmmm…
Consider this:

Genesis 14:14 (King James Version)
“14And when Abram heard that his BROTHER was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.”

Interestingly, Lot was the NEPHEW of Abram - not his brother. The reason? Hebrew has no word for “nephew”. So much for the “…simple reading of Scripture…” statement.

Pax!

it is common knowledge that the Hebrew language does not make the DISTINCTION that the Greek does, which is the point that can’t be dealt with here; only maneuvered around to avoid the obvious contradiction(s).

 

[Calvin_95]

Jumping to apostolic succession from Matthew 16:19? That is news to many of us who have never met a Catholic using Matthew 16:19 to defend Apostolic Succession. Or, may be (just may be) Calvin 95 does not even know what Catholics mean by Apostolic Succession.

Here is the Gospel According to Calvin 95, Chapter One Verse One: "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God."
Yes, according to Calvin 95, the Word of John 1:1 is the Bible.

placido

ad hominem = nothing to really say. It does show the heart and breaks the 2nd commandment, then by default the first. So have at it. I count it as all joy according the the Scripture.

 

[placido]

I believe that you believe the bible was written and inspired by the Catholic church, which neglected to write itself into the NT; I have a different and biblical view concerning that I would be happy to discuss on the appropriate thread.

You believe that we “believe the Bible was written and inspired by the Catholic church” … yet the fact that you will never find a Catholic document that says so doesn’t bother you. You just make something up, believe it wholeheartedly, and force it on us … and you have the audacity to call yourself a Christian?
FYI, Catholics believe the Holy Scriptures are God-breathed (ie inspired by God). Now you have it from us, stop lying.

placido

 

[placido]

Being devoted to Mary makes you devoted to Mary, not Jesus.

How do you come to that conclusion?

Unless you’re making her part of the Godhead.

That statement disproves your previous statement because Catholics recognize Mary as blessed without making her part of the Godhead … the very idea of making Mary part of the God is so absurd it does not exist outside the anti-Catholic mind.

If Mary sees God face to face then why does she have to pray?

Where does the Bible those who see God face to face would cease to pray (chapter and verse please).

placido

 

[placido]

Do you have a Divine Source to back up all your Marian doctrines?

You keep asking for sources but you have a bad tract record of refusing to even look at the evidence when presented. Will you this time?

placido

 

[graceandglory]

I believe that you believe the bible was written and inspired by the Catholic church, which neglected to write itself into the NT; I have a different and biblical view concerning that I would be happy to discuss on the appropriate thread.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.
[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

 

[graceandglory]

Being devoted to Mary makes you devoted to Mary, not Jesus. Unless you’re making her part of the Godhead.If Mary sees God face to face then why does she have to pray? On what objective source do you base all of this?

Being devoted to my husband makes me devoted to my husband.
He is not part of the Godhead.
I do not worship my husband.
Together we worship only the Lord God.

But we are also devoted to the Seattle Mariners, but that seems to be a lost cause.

 

[placido]

I already explained that sufficiently from a biblical point of view, which you disagree with. You avoided the question, “how can God be born and be eternal?”

So, when God was born (the Bible says He was) according to you He ceased to be eternal and (as a logical consequence) ceased to be God.
Is that what you believe (that God ceased to be God) or do you rather reject the Bible when it says God was born?

Because the answer is so evident that you must side-step it and use a profusion of words to walk around the obvious. God has no Mother, if He did He would be a CREATURE; Jesus the God-man was born in the likeness of human flesh because this is the “tool” or “means” which He chose to reveal Himself into our little time-space box rather than in the holy of holies.

Hmmm … God has no mother … and God was born.
Total confusion!
You obviously are unable to comprehend the two natures and the relationship and importantance this has for man. I suggest you read and study your Bible on this topic before you continue on wit this discussion, which is really not a discussion.
Help me … where in the Bible must I look in my Bible to see how one can be born yet has no mother?

placido

 

[placido]

17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. - Galatians 1

Is this James not the brother of Jude (Jude 1)? Are both not those said to be the “brothers of Jesus” (Matthew 13:55) and said to be the sons of Mary the wife of Clopas (Matthew 27:56)?
Was Mary the mother of Jesus wife of Clopas?
Tough questions for you, but in fact very easy ones for those who believe the Bible instead of reading their beliefs into the holy text.

placido

 

[placido]

You would fare much better to focus on the Word of God and not of men.

In other words, we should read our Bible and ignore what Calvin 95 says.

placido

 

[placido]

How do you seperate what God has said from God? Is Scripture God? No Is Scriputre part of God? Yes Thi si s why the writer of Hebrews says the Scripture is both living and active. Think about it; don’t respond because I will be moving along after I have addressed the rest. This whole theology of Maryology is quite scary to me.

I give you credit for at least correctly speaking of “Maryology” instead of “Mariolatry”.

placido

 

[placido]

ad hominem = nothing to really say. It does show the heart and breaks the 2nd commandment, then by default the first. So have at it. I count it as all joy according the the Scripture.

No ad hominem … unless you misunderstand it too.
if you don’t believe John 1:1’s Word of God = Bible, then come back and tell us why you referred to John 1:1 without further explanation.

placido

 

[moondweller]

How do you come to that conclusion?

It was stated that being devoted to Mary makes one close to Jesus. That’s senseless. If you want to get close to someone you don’t devote yourself to someone else.

That statement disproves your previous statement because Catholics recognize Mary as blessed without making her part of the Godhead … the very idea of making Mary part of the God is so absurd it does not exist outside the anti-Catholic mind.

You missed the point. If you devote yourself to Christ you’ll get close to God - since He is God. But you can’t get close to Jesus by devoting yourself to Mary. Mary’s not part of the Godhead.

AGAIN, if you want to get close to someone you don’t devote yourself to someone else. Totally nonsensical. Which Apostle ever taught the church personal devotion to Mary? Where did Jesus ever teach His Apostles (or anyone) personal devotion to His mother?

 

[moondweller]

Being devoted to my husband makes me devoted to my husband.

Thank you. You just made my point.

 

[adrift]

Yes I do…but I’m sure if you were interested, you’d have already looked. If you are content with your position as detailed by your church…I rejoice with you in your belief…I have no wish to change them in any way. I was offering my opinion based on my own study of historical doctrinal developments…I have no desire to seek to “win the arguement”…since I’m not in an arguement to “win”.

This is an evasion to answering the question. I have looked and could not find anything that backs your assertion. Why be so coy in providing a source? You have correctly stated that it is an opinion based on what you see as historical but without providing that historical basis. I could not find any basis for titles being the same nor your claimed Iconography.