Are men really struggling or not

[grandfather]

Thank you – yes, that is what hurts so badly. I can handle that he finds other women more beautiful, more sexy, more attractive, if he would try to stop looking and lusting because it hurts me and it is wrong and something he has the ability to fight against, even if it is an unsuccessful fight many times. I feel so disrespected that he tells me I am wrong to ask him to try to stop. I have born him 6 children and nurtured them all and still have a pretty good body after 23 years of marriage – why can I not be enough for him? Why does he think so little of me to not even struggle on my behalf? I guess it may be that he protects his pride by not admitting that he is doing wrong or addicted.

In theology there is a lot of thought about nature vs. grace.

First think about nature. How many women could one man inseminate in a year? How many offspring could one man produce? How many offspring could a woman produce? Think about the higher mammals. The males thump their chests, bash one another’s heads in, fight, bite and tear one another to shreds over mating rights to a pack of females. That is nature. All of the females in a pack or herd are inseminated by a single male, the mightiest. Lions, apes, whales, walruses, deer, elk, wild horses, elephants, sheep and goats all follow the same pattern.

Among many of the species like elk all the fighting and breeding comes just before winter. The male who wins all the females never survives the winter. He is so drained by the exertion that he does not have enough in reserve to make it through the winter and see his offspring be born and grow.

Religion says humans should not behave this way. Males can’t all be killing one another off over sex. After children are born they do better with a father around who has not fathered thrity others that year. It is also good for the men to see their children and grandchildren. Men and women can be more to one another than breeding partners. They can love one another and live in peace together and see their chidren’s children together.

In order to do this men have to overcome nature. They need grace and without it overcoming nature is impossible. Your husband lacks this grace. He does not believe it exists. He does not believe he can overcome nature. Unless that changes he will see women as objects of lust.

I don’t think you should feel hurt, but understand why you do. It will not help him. In order to overcome nature something supernatural must occur. The force that conquers sin is love. God is love and we see Him crucified for love of us. He suffered and died for the love of us sinners, those who offend Him and wound Him. Your husband is now hurting you by his sin. This is your cross. It conforms you to the image of your Savior.

When we offend Him He continues to love and forgive us.

 

[grandfather]

Be very, very careful here.

-Tina

Very good advice, but you are probably wasting your breath.

Jesus came into the world for sinners. Those who say they have none do not need Him.

He does not come into the souls of the perfect. He comes into souls to perfect them.

He is born into a messy smelly world. We would like to clean up the mess of our souls before He comes, but no matter what we do there is still disorder. He creates order in us.

The prostitutes and tax collectors get a pass. The self righteous are condemned. There are only two types of people in this world, the penitent and the impenitent. Those are subsets of a bigger class, sinners all.

Those who receive mercy, beg God for mercy for others.

 

[ac_claire]

There is a time for everything, a time to admonish the stubborn, but also to encourage the fainthearted. Jesus said he would not break a bruised reed or put out a smoldering wick. I am not convinced it is given to you to decide which is appropriate in this situation. I find your advice alarming, unbalanced and possibly cruel. The most horrible deeds on the earth have been done by the self-righteous in the full conviction that they are doing the will of God. In all humility and charity I would encourage you to search your own heart to see what may lie in it before advising the course of action you advocate. Jimmy Swaggart was the strongest condemner of the sins of other evangelists right up to the time his own scandal broke.

There is an old saying: when you point one finger at someone, three are pointing back at you. By the standard you judge others you will be judged. Be very, very careful here.

I understand what you’re saying, but there’s no need to make this personal. I happen to know Advocatus Fidei and he actually does live by a worthy standard from which he can justly speak the truth about this. (By your own argument, charity would assume this before judging him don’t you think? ) However, I think the bigger point is that we’re all “judging” here. Everyone who responded to the OP’s post is judging what she wrote and responding based on the private judgements we’ve made. Scripture nowhere tells us not to judge. We’re told it’s a work of mercy to rebuke the sinner.

“Judge not lest ye be judged” seems to be constantly misused. We’re *supposed *to judge situations, as Christ did. To not do so is to be willfully blind. “Go and sin no more”-- that was a judgement wasn’t it? If not, Christ woudln’t have insinuated that the woman was guilty of any sin in the first place. But he had compassion for her and was urging her to NOT sin anymore. Please don’t confuse lack of encouragement with lack of compassion for the sinner. Sin is not something we encourage!

What we are told NOT to do is to not be hypocrites; ie: we should make sure that we are right with God before can we judge anything else rightly. Remove the beam from our own eys first, etc. But that doesn’t anywhere mean that we’re silent when faced with injustice and obstinate sin.

 

[Antrim]

We men have to be very carefull when we look at woman that we are not commiting adultery in our hearts.
If a man has lustfull thoughts and desires when he looks at a woman he is commiting sin.
REmember what Christ said in The Sermon on the Mount.
If a man looks at a woman wirth lust he has already commited Adultery with her in his Heart.
Your Husband needs to keep this in mind. This is very serious and can not be taken lightely. It is his eternal salvation that he is playing with.

Antrim

 

[Bluegoat]

There is a contradiction. They do talk about repentance, but also say all that is necessary for salvation is faith. Faith alone saves. This is the cornerstone of Luther’s thought.

Today many rely on a salvation experience, “getting saved”, being “born again”, not in baptism, but an experience of accepting Christ as one’s personal savior. From that time on they know for sure they are heaven bound, or think they know. They have been saved and salvation can not be lost. Once saved always saved, because they have come to faith and that is the sole condition for salvation.

They can be involved in serious sin, but still believe Jesus is the Son of God who came to save sinners, so they are ok.

Catholics believe that if we die impenitent, in our sins, we are in trouble. When Jesus told the pharisees they would die in their sins, He was telling them they would be eternally lost.

When I talk with Protestant friends, some of whom are ministers, about people who have had this born again experience, but live in serious sin throughout their life, they say they believe they are saved by virtue of their faith that Jesus is their savior.

Catholics believe faith, hope and love are necessary for salvation. You must love God and neighbor. Scripture equates loving God with obeying God’s commandments.

Again, this is not particularly a good understanding of the theology of most Protestants. It isn’t a good explanation of Luther, for example. Yes, Luther thought we were justified by faith alone. But that is not where his thinking stops - it is about as accurate as saying Catholics believe in salvation by works.

Not all, or even most, Protestants subscribe to the “once saved always saved” philosophy. Luther, and many other modern groups of Protestants, would also say a person who died without repentance was in trouble; that justification was something that happens over a life-time not just in an instant; that good works inevitably come from faith and without them faith is dead; and also many practice infant baptism and some also have a sacramental theology of baptism (Lutherans being one such group.)

If you want to comment on Protestant theology, do try to be accurate.

 

[EvelynEVF]

The once-saved-always-saved theology is part of conservative American Evangelical Protestantism, as opposed to more mainstream denominations.

The church I converted out of certainly believed it, though they would tend to say that if a person was clearly living in unrepentant sin, they probably weren’t really saved in the first place. There isn’t much room for two steps forward, one step back daily conversion.

 

[OraLabora]

I understand what you’re saying, but there’s no need to make this personal. I happen to know Advocatus Fidei and he actually does live by a worthy standard from which he can justly speak the truth about this. (By your own argument, charity would assume this before judging him don’t you think? ) However, I think the bigger point is that we’re all “judging” here. Everyone who responded to the OP’s post is judging what she wrote and responding based on the private judgements we’ve made. Scripture nowhere tells us not to judge. We’re told it’s a work of mercy to rebuke the sinner.

“Judge not lest ye be judged” seems to be constantly misused. We’re *supposed *to judge situations, as Christ did. To not do so is to be willfully blind. “Go and sin no more”-- that was a judgement wasn’t it? If not, Christ woudln’t have insinuated that the woman was guilty of any sin in the first place. But he had compassion for her and was urging her to NOT sin anymore. Please don’t confuse lack of encouragement with lack of compassion for the sinner. Sin is not something we encourage!

What we are told NOT to do is to not be hypocrites; ie: we should make sure that we are right with God before can we judge anything else rightly. Remove the beam from our own eys first, etc. But that doesn’t anywhere mean that we’re silent when faced with injustice and obstinate sin.

We are supposed to judge situations as they apply to us. To God alone resides judgement of the person. Yes Christ told the adulteress to “go and sin no more”. But He is God, He owns the right to judgement. He rebuked the humans who were trying to judge her in a very clever manner that made them look into their own souls.

We are also not supposed to enable what you call “obstinate sin” and which may in fact be addiction, something most of us aren’t nearly qualified enough to assess. That does not mean we cease to love, nor does it mean we need to lower our impression of the person to the level of beast. I can assure you we all have some level of beastliness in our hearts. But that doesn’t make us beasts. It makes us fallen.

You say we need to be “right with God”. As far as I know very few of us can say with a straight face, at any given time that he or she is “right with God”.

The only exception would be saints. And true saints have enough humility to not make that kind of statement about themselves, true saints recognize that we all have the potential for truly dark thoughts and acts within our hearts.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Christ was not talking to a child in the citations you mentioned.

He also said, when challenged with the adulteress, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”, and forgave the Good Thief on the cross. And I could go on, but I won’t.

That’s my point about your using Bible citations without context or without looking at the big picture. Or maybe you only want to see the part of the picture that fits with your own world view.

It’s a game that I won’t play as it won’t get you anywhere; anyone can pull a citation out of context to score points in an argument. The JWs are experts at it.

You said that saying anything at all like that was unchristian and uncharitable in all circumstances, now you are backtracking and saying I am taking that out of context.

You are mistaken, the context was that Christ was speaking to obstinate sinners, Christ defended penitent sinners but he rebuked those who were obstinate in their sin in very harsh language.

If some wish to avoid the unpleasant, difficult and unpopular work of rebuking the obstinate out of fear of been disliked by hiding behind Christ’s way of dealing with the penitent sinner then that is up to them but they do the obstinate sinner no good whatsoever.

Rebuking the obstinate was the way Christ acted, it was the way the Apostles acted and it was the way the Saints have acted also, why do you think so many of them were hated.

I will follow their example rather than the example of Oprah which only hardens the obstinate in their sin in return for popularity in this world and I will recommend their example to any who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

By right with God Claire is obviously referring to been in a state of grace, we are not protestants after all.

 

[ac_claire]

We are supposed to judge situations as they apply to us. To God alone resides judgement of the person. Yes Christ told the adulteress to “go and sin no more”. But He is God, He owns the right to judgement. He rebuked the humans who were trying to judge her in a very clever manner that made them look into their own souls.

If by judgement you mean “condemn to hell” then you’re correct. Only God can do that. But observing and judging a very plain situation is scriptural, it’s what the apostles did, St. Paul did all the time and what we’re exhorted to do, with mercy. Rebuke the sinner- it’s a work of mercy. There’s no getting around that.

We are also not supposed to enable what you call “obstinate sin” and which may in fact be addiction, something most of us aren’t nearly qualified enough to assess. That does not mean we cease to love, nor does it mean we need to lower our impression of the person to the level of beast. I can assure you we all have some level of beastliness in our hearts. But that doesn’t make us beasts. It makes us fallen.

You say we need to be “right with God”. As far as I know very few of us can say with a straight face, at any given time that he or she is “right with God”.

The only exception would be saints. And true saints have enough humility to not make that kind of statement about themselves, true saints recognize that we all have the potential for truly dark thoughts and acts within our hearts.

If you’re whole point is that you didn’t like Advocatus Fidei’s using the word “beast”, then that’s fair enough. But that wasn’t his or my larger point. Of course we all struggle with sin, of course some sin is addiction, etc. Nobody is disputing that. But it’s irrelevant when it comes to *seeing *and *judging *an unjust situation. Which is what the OP is in.

Nobody has been condemning the OP’s husband’s struggle with lust or condemning him personally outright to hell. If you still don’t understand, go back and read the OP and then my previous posts, and the OP’s response to me.

 

[TinaG]

What I do know after 30 years of marriage is that nagging doesn’t work when DH is being a blockhead. Threats and manipulation and shame don’t work. Prayer works.

-Tina

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

We are supposed to judge situations as they apply to us. To God alone resides judgement of the person. .

:tiphat:

well said!

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

When I became a “true believer”, I gave up lusting. Prior to that, I didn’t see anything wrong with it. (Of course I was wrong).

Yes men are stimulated visually (much more so than women).

Now, I do not allow myself to lust. I look away if I need to. Sometimes the image is still burned into your mind. If I still have trouble I start praying to Blessed Mother.

I heard a good line in a movie - “Our God has high standards. To Him lust is adultery and hatred is murder.”

I think that sums it up pretty well, so if you truly believe in God, how could you allow yourself to lust or watch pornography.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena

 

[ac_claire]

OraLabora ;6092511:

We are supposed to judge situations as they apply to us. To God alone resides judgement of the person.

:tiphat:

well said!

To God alone resides judgement of a person’s soul, yes. I believe that to anyone with eyes and ears and a conscience resides the ability and frequently the responsibility of judgement of any public injustice.

As far as “We are supposed to judge situations as they apply to us.”…I’m really not sure that that’s Scriptural.

Anyway, God bless you all and Merry Christmas!

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

To God alone resides judgement of a person’s soul, yes. I believe that to anyone with eyes and ears and a conscience resides the ability and frequently the responsibility of judgement of any public injustice.

As far as “We are supposed to judge situations as they apply to us.”…I’m really not sure that that’s Scriptural.

You are so right! I should have removed that line. I was really agreeing to the comment “To God alone resides the judgement of the person.” portion of the post.

Thank you for clarifying.

I guess I’m a little sensitive to this right now. Spending time here on CA I have, so far, found it to be a most judgemental group of people. It’s very disappointing to me that there seems to be more judgement than compassion and understanding here. That many of these very judgmental postings are from people claiming to be Catholic on their profile really saddens me. I wonder what others think about us as a result?

I shall stick around and see if the trend changes. :

 

[EvelynEVF]

I have a feeling that a large part of it is that situations are not fully spelled out, and many/most posters don’t want to make the mistake of sounding like they condone anything iffy. Electronic communication can be very black and white, just by its nature.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Sorry – this is more on my dh and his views on lust, etc.
OK – he says that he hid his lusting over the years of our marriage just to spare my feelings.

I am sorry to hear that you both are going through this. It has definitely raised a couple issues that you both will have to deal with. Primarily the lust and secondarily the trust and communication between the two of you. I think that he needs to be open and honest with you about this as you can be there person to help him and hold him accountable for this. I have heard many different stories of husbands that are addicted to porn or masturbation and having someone (may times their wives) that they can have to hold them accountable will help in their recovery from this.

He feels all men look at women for sexual pleasure and none feel they should stop but some do or at least pretend to because their wives, like me, are ‘overly unrealistic and feel hurt by their husbands’ lusting’ but other than that all men go ahead and lust at any attractive women they encounter.

I will have to be the one to admit to him that not all men lust after women. Have I in the past, sure, but that is before I learned what I did about the beauty of the female body and the reason that God created it. I would hope that my wife would have very high expectations of me as it relates to other women. She should expect me to treat her the same way that Christ did His bride. He gave up His life for the Church and we are called to do the same for our wives. It is a struggle to look at a woman with pure eyes, but it is possible. As Fr. Larry Richards says, it is not a sin to look, but what you do with that thought. If you see a beautiful woman and thank God for her beauty, nothing wrong. If you dwell on that image or objectify that woman, then it becomes sinful.

I think that if he doesn’t understand that lusting is wrong and bad for him, us, our relationship, his relationship with all women and God, then there is no way he could win the battle against lusting because he sees it as just doing something for me not something to do for him or for God, and he feels if I don’t know, then why do it since I can’t know his thoughts.

Recommend the following books to both of you:

Holy Sex by Gregory Popcak

The Good News About Sex and Marriage by Christopher West.

If you like to listen to talks you can listen to “Naked Without Shame” by Christopher West.

Do you men think lusting is wrong?

Yes

Am I unrealistic to think men are capable of controlling their lustful thoughts?

No

or turning away instead of feasting their eyes?

No

Am I wrong in wanting him to stop?

No

Do men just pretend to fight their lust while indulging covertly?

Some (unfortunately) do

Am I ‘bullying and nasty’ to think it is wrong for my 46yo dh of 23 years to want to continue lusting after anyone/everyone he finds attractive?

No, you are expecting what God expects. Are God’s expectations wrong?

I truly think my Catholic husband (converted 6 years ago) actually has no conscience or moral maturity, other than trying to look good on the outside so he is socially acceptable. ???

Again, suggest the aforementioned materials for him to look into as well as the “Chastity” tab on top of the page. This is simply a hill to climb, not a mountian.