Are men threatened by the "Feminization" of the Liturgy?

[deogratias]

I refer to how the Church is becoming dominated by feminists - it began with some of the teaching nuns now many of the traditionally male roles are dominated by women. If you doubt it, how many lectors are female, how many male. How many EMHC are female. How many RCIA instructors are females? How many altar servers are female. How many liturgical directors are female.

But this is just female dominance. By the feminization of the church, I refer more to the Catholic feminist groups which were as early as 1980 promoting a “spirit of Vatican II” interpreted by such subversive and spiritually repulsive writers as Matthew Fox and Rosemary Ruether, and were pressing for such innovations as “liturgical dance” emanating from practices of witchcraft and the replacing of the Sign of the Cross with the invocation “in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier.” Feminists were proceeding radically to change the wording of the Creed to fit their feminist ideology,

Have you heard of or ever read a book called *** Ungodly Rage: The Hidden Face of Catholic Feminism ***, by Donna Steichen

Mrs. Steichen quotes at length Sister Madonna Kolbenschlag, speaking at the first Women in the Church conference at the Shoreham Hotel in Washington, D.C., on 10 October 1986. "It drew a handful of men and nearly 2,500 women, some 85 percent of them nuns. … Many were uncritical thinkers, accepting as valid theological commentary whatever was published in the National Catholic Reporter, which seemed to be standard convent reading fare

Feminists claim to speak for women, but feminism has an “anti-feminine heart” (p. 265). Religious feminism is a spin-off from liberation theology heavily influenced by the propaganda of Rosemary Ruether (p. 280), in her many speaking engagements and in her books, such as Sexism and God-Talk, where she boasts: “A new God is being born in our hearts to teach us to level the heavens and exalt the earth and create a new world” (p. 284). Ruether commits blasphemy against the Holy Spirit where she says that “feminism represents a fundamental shift in the valuation of good and evil,” where she rails against the image of God the Father as an idolatrous projection of the “transcendent male ego,” and where she calls for the elimination of the very name of God in favor of the “God/ess”

I recommend all read that book and the next time your parish offers classes in Enneagrams, Labyrinth Walking, Yoga, Prayer Wheels, Flute Journeys or other New Age sounding programs, you will not take it so lightly.

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

pnewton:

I am not in the least intimidated by females serving in roles assigned the laity to the extent allowed by church leaders. They too may be called to religious life.

They are not the “smoke of Satan.” They just have cooties.

Sir this is not about “women’s rights”. Serving at the altar,on the altar is not like baseball.[we need the rights to do everything men do] This is a sacred function. Mr.pnewton you are now made sensitive to feminists so priestesses could be okay for you.This against the Church’s immemorial tradition. Women are not supposted to be in the sanctuary and are supposted to wear veils in church. Listen to ST.Paul. Women do not have a role on the altar during Mass. T

 

[AnnieD]

Before I joined the Catholic Answers Forums, I would have said that was a bunch of hooey. I had never heard other’s complain about women giving holy communion or that it was the ruination of vocations, until I read about it on the Forums. I didn’t realize other’s thought the liturgy was feminized either.

Annie

 

[davy39]

I think it is wrong to blame all the chruchs’ problems on women and the changes of Vatican 2. As far as filling postions of lectors, em’s, etc. where are the men? Could it be that a lot of us are just too lazy to get off our rears,and do these things? Also, I think the whole attitude of the american people has changed in the last 40 years. More divorces, more broken homes and the general breakdown of the family unit. I believe most of the women (not all) do not have some kind of an agenda in church, they are just trying to help out, because nobody else will do it. Just my opinion, God bless everybody.

 

[Iohannes]

The men and women are not at fault, it is the people in power and incharge who should know better not to push every novelty after Vatican II, and yes it is new thing that women are around the altar.

With Vatican II, we have seen people in charge trying to empower the laity, it is not about empowerment folks, sacredness has been lost and the altar has now become a battleground for the sexes, pushing agendas, and putting mankind above God.

Active participation is uniting oneself with the Sacrifice of Calvary and recieving Communion is not the most important aspect of Mass.

No wonder the schismatic Eastern Orthodox and SSPX do not take us seriously.

 

[pnewton]

Catholic Eagle:

Mr.pnewton you are now made sensitive to feminists so priestesses could be okay for you.

Absolutely not true. I have no sensitivity to feminist who favor women’s ordination. Women priest are not a theological possibility for me. Rome has spoken. Debate is ended.

I am, however, open to that which is allowed by the Church’s current disciplines, i.e. women EMhc and girl altar servers, within the given guidelines.

There is nothing wrong with me following my Church and her leaders in these matters, including interpretation of St. Paul’s letters/

Now I have a Biblical question for you, since you quoted St. Paul. Since you take the guidelines listed in I Corinthians as in effect today, do you also follow the guidelines a few sentences prior to the one quoted on the proper procedures for allowing the speaking of tongues and interpretation of tongues in Church?

 

[LabChick]

AnnieD:

Before I joined the Catholic Answers Forums, I would have said that was a bunch of hooey. I had never heard other’s complain about women giving holy communion or that it was the ruination of vocations, until I read about it on the Forums. I didn’t realize other’s thought the liturgy was feminized either.

Annie

I agree. I’ve never heard anyone say the liturgy had been “feminized” until I became a member of CAF.

As far as serving at the altar leading to a vocation to the priesthood, I can’t justify it. In the parish I grew up in, not one of the male altar servers went on to the seminary. However, two girls who served at the altar did become sisters.

It can go either way. I think there’s more to it than an experience one has as a child/teen. God doesn’t call every one who serves in the Church as a child to a religious vocation. Women can also be called to religious life.

 

[LabChick]

davy39:

I think it is wrong to blame all the chruchs’ problems on women and the changes of Vatican 2. ::snip:: I believe most of the women (not all) do not have some kind of an agenda in church, they are just trying to help out, because nobody else will do it. Just my opinion, God bless everybody.

Well said!! I have been in more than one parish where the male population just wasn’t substantial enough to fill the laity roles.

 

[OhioBob]

davy39:

I think it is wrong to blame all the chruchs’ problems on women and the changes of Vatican 2. As far as filling postions of lectors, em’s, etc. where are the men? Could it be that a lot of us are just too lazy to get off our rears,and do these things?

You know, you might be on to something there. Just think about the culture of the American man as reflected in the media and compare the 50’s - work, family, etc. with the popular culture of American men today (stupid sports shows, reality tv, inane sitcoms, erectile dysfunction ads, etc.). I think it is true that men have dumbed down. We’ve lost the sense of the sacred in exchange for the sexualized.

I don’t blame women, nor do I blame the Church. I think the problem is with US. Us guys. We need to step up and reclaim orthodoxy.

I’ve attended some Promise Keepers events, and the most impressive part was the sight of 50,000 men recommitting to their role in the family, in the church and in society. By far most of the men were protestant. Catholics were few and far between. But the goal should be the same - to reinvigorate their faith.

I think we cop out when we blame the lagging involvement of men on VII, the bishops, or lay ministries open to women. Those factors may not help our weak faith, but we should take responsibility for our own faithlessness.

 

[davy39]

Way to go, Ohio Bob. I agree with you 100 per cent. We are portrayed by the media as beer drinking, pizza eating, overweight slobs, that would rather be couch potatoes, that commit ourselves to anything worthwhile. Look how many commercials depict the man as a stupid idiot. The old saying is that if you tell somebody something often enough, sooner or later they’ll believe it. It’s time for the men of the church to stand up and be counted, instead of sitting in the pew looking like they would rather be fishing. There, I got that off my chest. God bless you all.

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

Well its also women’s fault in part. Cardinal Siri in 1960 said th women wearing male clothes would cause men to have many physcological disorders.

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

Vatican II destroyed much of the Catholic worldview and ethos of the lay faithful. The Catholic Church before Vatican II was the ONLY TRUE CHURCH but Vatican II said that the Church is one of many churches.Vatican II did much much much more than this.

 

[deogratias]

Isn’t there a group that is similar to Promise Keepers for men but Catholic oriented, St. Joseph’s Covenant Keepers I think it is called.

 

[OhioBob]

deogratias:

Isn’t there a group that is similar to Promise Keepers for men but Catholic oriented, St. Joseph’s Covenant Keepers I think it is called.

They don’t seem to have progressed much beyond an internet resource yet (www.dads.org), although they show promise. It’s been a while since I have heard much from them, but it would certainly be a start. They have some resources on their site about starting small men’s groups in your local church.

Now if we could just get us guys off the couch and into such a group, that would be a positive first step.

I think that the initiative will have to come from converts and reverts. Most of the adult male cradle-Catholics out there are victims of our own dismal catechesis. It’s hard enough just getting them to Mass. But hopefully that will change as the growing wave of orthodox young men steps up to bolster us old guys.

Just my opinion of course. :tiphat:

Blessings.

 

[krazykatlady]

I don’t have any strong feelings for or against women reading scripture in church or EEMs. I think in light of the vocations crisis perhaps it was a mistake to allow girls serve at the altar.

What I do have strong feelings about is the flakey, no-substance, even heretical so called feminine spirituality that some of these angry, feminist nuns and lay women have come up with. Please! Make it stop!

 

[LabChick]

To the person who wrote in the reputation comments that I am an “ignorant feminazi c****” who "needs to learns something about Catholism - the administrators know who you are!

I know quite a bit about Catholism. What I don’t understand is why someone would even write such a comment.

krazykatlady:

What I do have strong feelings about is the flakey, no-substance, even heretical so called feminine spirituality that some of these angry, feminist nuns and lay women have come up with. Please! Make it stop!

This is interesting…could you elaborate?

 

[darcee]

I think it is FAR more damaging to vocations to hear one’s father speak lightly of the priesthood then to see a women in a lay role in the mass.

I think it is FAR more damaging to vocations to know dad is still in bed at home while mom brings you to church then to see a women in a lay role in the mass.

I think it is FAR more damaging to vocations to see the other men in church sleeping then to see a women in a lay role in the mass.

I think it is FAR more damaging to vocations to never see your father pray, to never receive a fathers blessing, to never see your dad go to confession then to see a women in a lay role in the mass.

I think it is FAR more damaging to vocations to watch your father criticize your mother for being faithful then to see a women in a lay role in the mass.

I think it is FAR more damaging to vocations to have a father who is openly in rebellion to the teachings of the church, a blasphemer, an adulterer, a liar and/or drunkard then to see a women in a lay role in the mass.

If men are going to complain about women serving in approved roles then they need to put their money where their mouths are and stand up and volunteer to do these things. If they want to see vocations increase they must take an active role in their children’s faith formation instead of bemoaning the feminization of the church. Men need to support each other. Take their faiths seriously and not excuse others for their laxity in this matter or try to blame women for it.

-D

 

[Meghan]

LabChick:

To the person who wrote in the reputation comments that I am an “ignorant feminazi c****” who "needs to learns something about Catholism - the administrators know who you are!

Yikes!!!

I hope the administrators can track whoever did that and deal with them. It’s sad that some people are hiding behind the anonymity of reputation to make comments like that.

 

[deogratias]

Yeah - I don’t like that “reputation” thing. I think if we have a complaint about a forum member, we should just send a note to the moderators stating what and why and referencing the thread and let them decide if it is in violation of forum rules or not.

However, the moderators, like us, have the ability to read all posts by any person and they probably will read all and determine if the person’s reputational comments had any validity or not.

 

[AnnieD]

Very well said, Darcee.:clapping: You made some excellent points and I agree with you 100 percent. Thanks for sharing.

Annie