Are Mormon Apostles the Real Thing?

[zaffiroborant]

And let’s not pretend that the LDS Church doesn’t believe that itself is the true Church and all others are false. You post on MADB, you should know how they view Catholics

It’s quite obvious from LDS posters here they believe that the LDS is The True Church and all others may have some truth but no authority. And it’s also obvious that whyme believes that Catholics should quit with their idea that they are the Church established by Christ but on the other hand it is quite right for the LDS to make their own truth claims.

If you read his posts on MADB you’ll see how he views Catholics. And if you read his posts here you’ll see how dismissive he is of Catholic beliefs, theology and practice not to mention his endless backhanded compliments of Catholics themselves. All this in spite of his claim he’s Catholic.

 

[Religio71]

It’s quite obvious from LDS posters here they believe that the LDS is The True Church and all others may have some truth but no authority. And it’s also obvious that whyme believes that Catholics should quit with their idea that they are the Church established by Christ but on the other hand it is quite right for the LDS to make their own truth claims.

If you read his posts on MADB you’ll see how he views Catholics. And if you read his posts here you’ll see how dismissive he is of Catholic beliefs, theology and practice not to mention his endless backhanded compliments of Catholics themselves. All this in spite of his claim he’s Catholic.

Well, at least if he’s “Catholic” he knows about excommunication latae sententiae

 

[zaffiroborant]

Correct me if I am wrong but I do think that if the Mormon Church was plagued by the abuse scandal as the catholic church has been, you probably would be condemning the Mormon way of life and mormon doctrine for forstering such abuse. As would other catholics on this section of the forum. In other words, such abuse if it existed in the lds church would be a condemnation by catholic apologists of the mormon way of life and its church.

Non-catholics can make a lot of hay from catholic imperfections. I was in the Boston area and the abuse scandals have created many problems for the catholic church since many priests were implicated in the abuse.

So by going straight to the abuse scandals (you have one going on right now) are you avoiding the question?

 

[majick275]

Yes, the lds church does consider itself the true church as does the catholic church. But the lds church does not view other churches as false. Rather it views many other christian faiths as having certain truth but not the complete truth. Over on MAD the catholic posters are treated very well and with respect. You can PM any catholic poster posting on that forum and get the same response.

this is absolutely incorrect. LDS scriptures do this exact thing. (call other churches false). it is the great apostasy that forms the cornerstone of the mormon religion.

 

[Stephen168]

What is the real thing?

I noticed you didn’t answer the question. The Bible does answer the question which clearly indicates Mormon Apostles are not real. Because they are not real, they must be a man made invention of Joseph Smith. Faux Apostles are not the only falsehood he has passed off as true.

 

[ParkerD]

I noticed you didn’t answer the question. The Bible does answer the question which clearly indicates Mormon Apostles are not real. Because they are not real, they must be a man made invention of Joseph Smith. Faux Apostles are not the only falsehood he has passed off as true.

Stephen,
I answered the question. The Bible tells that Christ commissioned the apostles to go into all the world and teach all nations. He gave them that commission. They received it. They understood it. Your tradition says they passed the commission on to others, but the Bible does not say that, only your tradition does, based on the assertion of authority by whoever was trying to prove they had it. It was a brilliant maneuver, but the consequence is closed hearts to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which is offered to all freely and fully. It is that loss that seems so tragic to me. It comes across in this website in so many ways (not among all, but among so many–it’s just unfortunate. No amount of explaining can bring it to someone. They have to have a soft heart, a listening heart.)

 

[Stephen168]

I answered the question.

Let’s see

The Bible tells that Christ commissioned the apostles to go into all the world and teach all nations. He gave them that commission. They received it. They understood it.

That is not answer.

Your tradition says they passed the commission on to others, but the Bible does not say that, only your tradition does, based on the assertion of authority by whoever was trying to prove they had it. It was a brilliant maneuver, but the consequence is closed hearts to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which is offered to all freely and fully. It is that loss that seems so tragic to me. It comes across in this website in so many ways (not among all, but among so many–it’s just unfortunate. No amount of explaining can bring it to someone. They have to have a soft heart, a listening heart.)

And your anti-catholic slam is not a biblical or historical or Catholic answer.

Whyme did not answer because there is no Mormon answer. There is a biblical answer which is the Catholic answer.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Correct me if I am wrong

Consider yourself corrected.

 

[why_me]

I’ve observed MADB for a number of years, and have seen otherwise.

And I admire you trying to put a “nice” spin on LDS belief on other churches, but LDS scripture and other writings say otherwise:

“Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil ; wherefore whosoever belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.” (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10).

The church of the devil is not exactly a church. But all those forces that fight against the word of god. You can read this from the FAIRwiki:

en.fairmormon.org/Great_and_abominable_church

I think that you will find this response very enlightening but it will not change your mind. Your other belief system about what it means gives you too much comfort.

 

[why_me]

If God actually does lead the LDS church how could he allow the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

The real question you should be asking is why does God allow all sinful things, if you’re asking us that question. We already agree that people are sinful and say and do sinful things. The difference between the abuse scandal and what discussing McConkie is that McConkie was teaching on a policy directly related to theology, and directly related to the progression of a people in a church. The priesthood is everything in the LDS Church. So we’re talking about two completely different areas here, so your comparison is really only trying to divert from the topic at hand. Start a new thread if you so feel the need to discuss the above.

The difference is much more. Mormons do not have a systematic theology. It creates all sorts of problems but it gives the church a unique culture and belief system. In other words mormons do not have a catechism—a book that states their belief system within a thousand pages. And so, on the fairwiki dealing with the abominable church, we can read all sorts of opinions by leaders.

 

[why_me]

Consider yourself corrected.

Hardly. You would be the first to give us posts about how the mormon faith encourages child abuse if the lds church had this problem and not the catholic church. And many other catholic posters who have an axe to grind would be harping on it forever.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hardly. You would be the first to give us posts about how the mormon faith encourages child abuse if the lds church had this problem and not the catholic church. And many other catholic posters who have an axe to grind would be harping on it forever.

I’ve never done any such thing. This is nothing more than your imagination AND your biases showing.

I’ve think you’ve become bitter whyme.

 

[why_me]

The mormon position on their apostles is not a bad one. They claim that they are following chirst and the early church. Mormon apostles travel all over the world meeting mormons and government leaders. They encourge a moral outlook and encourage mormons to live a good, holy life. And they proclaim the word of god to the lds. And in the end, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[why_me]

I’ve never done any such thing. This is nothing more than your imagination AND your biases showing.

I’ve think you’ve become bitter whyme.

No I haven’t. But to claim that you would not bring up such a scandal if it happened in the mormon church and not the catholic church would be unbelievable knowing your past posts about the lds and your position about the lds church.

If the mormon church was involved in a major coverup about child abuse and its leaders were discovered to abuse children, you would not bring it up condemning the lds church? And we need to assume within this scenerio that the abuse never abandoned in the catholic church. In other words, we need to overturn the tables.

 

[twopekinguys]

Correct me if I am wrong but I do think that if the Mormon Church was plagued by the abuse scandal as the catholic church has been, you probably would be condemning the Mormon way of life and mormon doctrine for forstering such abuse. As would other catholics on this section of the forum. In other words, such abuse if it existed in the lds church would be a condemnation by catholic apologists of the mormon way of life and its church.

Non-catholics can make a lot of hay from catholic imperfections. I was in the Boston area and the abuse scandals have created many problems for the catholic church since many priests were implicated in the abuse.

What is it with you and the sex abuse scandal? When you can’t come up with any type of relavant statement, you always dredge this up. Either that or you imply Catholics are drunks. Personally, I am tired of it.

The lds church has had its fair share of sex abuse issues, but their response is usually that they were a “volunteer”. Since the lds don’t pay the vast majority of their clergy, and consider them in a “volunteer” status, it helps insulate the lds organization as a whole.

Here are a couple of references for you:

deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705316062,00.html
geocities.com/wsimister/ldscourt.htm

Try something new would you please

 

[RebeccaJ]

No I haven’t. But to claim that you would not bring up such a scandal if it happened in the mormon church and not the catholic church would be unbelievable knowing your past posts about the lds and your position about the lds church.

If the mormon church was involved in a major coverup about child abuse and its leaders were discovered to abuse children, you would not bring it up condemning the lds church? And we need to assume within this scenerio that the abuse never abandoned in the catholic church. In other words, we need to overturn the tables.

Really whyme, I don’t care what your mormon church does or doesn’t do. Apostles or no, whatever you want to believe. It’s all just more BS to me.

I comment on what people claim about the mormon church, compared to the truth. Mormons like yourself have a tendency to whitewash, relativity and ad hominen attacks, rather than addressing what is being said. Same ****, different day.

 

[Religio71]

The mormon position on their apostles is not a bad one. They claim that they are following chirst and the early church. Mormon apostles travel all over the world meeting mormons and government leaders. They encourge a moral outlook and encourage mormons to live a good, holy life. And they proclaim the word of god to the lds. And in the end, there is nothing wrong with that.

Lots of things are nice and fluffy. That doesn’t mean it is correct. Yes, LDS have a nice lifestyle, and most of them read the Bible. But we’re not talking about culture here. We’re talking about doctrine. The fact of the matter is that LDS Apostles are not like the Twelve in the Bible. They do not meet the same criteria that the Twelve in the Bible met to be the Twelve. That is what we’re talking about in this thread, and not whether they meet with government leaders or “claim that they are following christ”.

 

[Religio71]

No I haven’t. But to claim that you would not bring up such a scandal if it happened in the mormon church and not the catholic church would be unbelievable knowing your past posts about the lds and your position about the lds church.

If the mormon church was involved in a major coverup about child abuse and its leaders were discovered to abuse children, you would not bring it up condemning the lds church? And we need to assume within this scenerio that the abuse never abandoned in the catholic church. In other words, we need to overturn the tables.

The Catholic sex abuse scandal is irrelevant to the discussion. Stop trying to deflect the issue. And again, this is not the same as the McConkie situation. We are talking about a policy related to doctrine and priesthood, as well as a policy that was speculated on in reference to it’s origins in the pre-existence. So stop bringing up an irrelevant issue.

 

[why_me]

What is it with you and the sex abuse scandal? When you can’t come up with any type of relavant statement, you always dredge this up. Either that or you imply Catholics are drunks. Personally, I am tired of it.

The lds church has had its fair share of sex abuse issues, but their response is usually that they were a “volunteer”. Since the lds don’t pay the vast majority of their clergy, and consider them in a “volunteer” status, it helps insulate the lds organization as a whole.

Here are a couple of references for you:

deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705316062,00.html
geocities.com/wsimister/ldscourt.htm

Try something new would you please

Catholics on this forum criticize lds leaders and they attempt to bring up dirt. It happens on a constant basis. LDS members have tried to have conversations with the catholics on this forum and yet, the same old ideas keep coming up by the catholics. My point was a simple one: No church is perfect and that would include the catholic church. Pope John Paul II to some commentors made a huge mistake in not addressing the child abuse scandal in America. He made a mistake. People make mistakes…not just mormon apostles. That was my point. No yard is pristine.

 

[why_me]

The Catholic sex abuse scandal is irrelevant to the discussion. Stop trying to deflect the issue. And again, this is not the same as the McConkie situation. We are talking about a policy related to doctrine and priesthood, as well as a policy that was speculated on in reference to it’s origins in the pre-existence. So stop bringing up an irrelevant issue.

No it isn’t. It shows a problem within the catholic church among its leaders. Why would god allow such a thing to happen in his church? Why would god allow certain things to have happened in the mormon church? Because we are human and our learning is continous. Mormon apostles have never claimed to be perfect and neither have catholic priests, cardinals and other leaders in the church. And I am certain that the pope does not think that he is perfect.

As I have stated, the mormon church is different than the catholic church. LDS do not have a catechism with over a thousand pages to explain doctrine. And as I have showed with the abominable church link, mormon leaders have more opinions than sand on a beach.