Are Mormons allowed to drink...

[majick275]

The current authoratative source for this is this:

Church Handbook
of Instructions
Book 1
Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics
Published by
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Salt Lake City, Utah
1998 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc.
All rights reserved
Printed in the United States of America
English approval: 9/98

Which states on p.96

*When a Disciplinary Council Is Not Necessary

A disciplinary council normally is not necessary in the following instances.

Failure to Comply with Some Church Standards

A disciplinary council should not be held to discipline or threaten members who do not comply with the Word of Wisdom or whose transgressions consist of omissions, such as failure to pay tithing, inactivity in the Church, or inattention to Church duties. *

That means that unless a person is already under restrictions by a previous Disciplinary council they can not be disfellowhipped or excommunicated for the above listed offenses. In the past this was different but this what the “offcial” word is now. Cetainly these things prevent you from getting or keeping a Temple recomend. One MAY be informally disciplined by their bishop though. This is restricted to private counsel and informal probation.

(ibid)
*Informal Probation

Informal probation is a means for a presiding officer to restrict some of a transgressor’s privileges of Church membership in ways that the officer specifies. Such restrictions may include suspending the right to partake of the sacrament, hold a Church position, exercise the priesthood, and enter a temple. If the privilege of entering a temple is suspended, a member should give his temple recommend to the presiding officer for the period of suspension. Wisely administered and humbly received, informal probation can be effective in helping a transgressor repent.

In less serious cases, a presiding officer may determine that a member needs a more active rather than a less active exercise of the privileges of Church membership. In these cases, informal probation may include positive conditions such as regular Church attendance, regular prayer, and reading selected scriptures or Church literature.

A bishop normally does not inform anyone of a decision to place a member on informal probation. No official record is made of such decisions, but the bishop may make private notes for his own use. He should keep these notes secure and destroy them after the probation concludes. If a bishop is released or if the member moves to a new ward before informal probation ends, the bishop may inform the new bishop to the extent necessary for the new bishop to supervise the remaining probation.

When a member who is on informal probation makes specified progress and meets prescribed conditions, the presiding officer may end the probation. If the member does not make this progress and meet the conditions, additional disciplinary action may be needed. *

 

[PaulDupre]

Apparently they’ve loosened up some in the last 20 years. That’s probably a good thing.
Paul

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by Paul Barlow
his attitude was hypocritical or was he making the best of a bad job. however if you find breaking somebody’s beliefs funny well thats your problem are you really saying you did not know about our w of w. would you do the same to a jewish person or muslim. and take it from a mormon the alcohol does not completly burn off.
you said you had a good attitude to the lds church then you must have known we are commanded not to consume alcohol. even in a nice spag bog.

Lighten up! When this happened, 10 years ago, no, I DID NOT know mormons couldn’t cook with wine. I did NOT deliberately break his beliefs. He was the 1st mormon I’d ever even known and he never discussed religion in the work place.
I DO have a good attitude toward most mormons because of that man’s kindness and generosity of spirit.
It’s mormons like you that make me think twice.

 

[Tmaque]

paul barlow:

his attitude was hypocritical or was he making the best of a bad job. however if you find breaking somebody’s beliefs funny well thats your problem are you really saying you did not know about our w of w. would you do the same to a jewish person or muslim. and take it from a mormon the alcohol does not completly burn off.
you said you had a good attitude to the lds church then you must have known we are commanded not to consume alcohol. even in a nice spag bog.

yours
paul barlow

If you put a cup of wine in a gallon of sauce the alcohol content is less than 1%. Cook it for a few hours and it will be all but gone. It’s safe to say that you would get more alcohol in your system getting swabbed for a shot than you would eating that spaghetti sauce. It’s silly to suggest that this LDS bishop was somehow “hypocritical” because he ate the spaghetti sauce. It’s also silly to suggest that catsrus was wrong for serving it. You remind of the Pharisees criticizing the apostles for “harvesting” on the Sabbath because they plucked a few heads of wheat as they were walking through a field. Paul, what is the “spirit” of the WoW? You really need to ask yourself that question.

 

[Tmaque]

catsrus:

Lighten up! When this happened, 10 years ago, no, I DID NOT know mormons couldn’t cook with wine. I did NOT deliberately break his beliefs. He was the 1st mormon I’d ever even known and he never discussed religion in the work place.
I DO have a good attitude toward most mormons because of that man’s kindness and generosity of spirit.
It’s mormons like you that make me think twice.

LDS most certainly can cook with wine. My LDS family cooks with wine all the time. Every summer my Mom makes brats boiled in beer. My LDS Mom makes the best beef stew in the world made with lots of Cabernet Sauvignon.

 

[Jerusha]

When I gave it to him and he saw “1 cup of burgandy”, he paled.
“I can’t have wine in my house” said he, “suppose some friends saw a bottle of wine in my cupboard?”

I would not criticize him for that reaction, or call it hypocritical. I would criticize his judgmental friends, however.

If you put a cup of wine in a gallon of sauce the alcohol content is less than 1%. Cook it for a few hours and it will be all but gone. It’s safe to say that you would get more alcohol in your system getting swabbed for a shot than you would eating that spaghetti sauce.

The body normally produces a small amount of alcohol in the digestive tract. It is insignificant, I agree. However, one should be conscious of dietary restrictions for anyone. There are many recovering alcoholics who are phobic about alcohol, and might be hypersensitive, in addition. They might be so phobic about alcohol that, knowing they had unintentionally gotten some minute amount, they would then have a struggle to not “continue the process” into getting drunk.

 

[paul_barlow]

Tmaque:

If you put a cup of wine in a gallon of sauce the alcohol content is less than 1%. Cook it for a few hours and it will be all but gone. It’s safe to say that you would get more alcohol in your system getting swabbed for a shot than you would eating that spaghetti sauce. It’s silly to suggest that this LDS bishop was somehow “hypocritical” because he ate the spaghetti sauce. It’s also silly to suggest that catsrus was wrong for serving it. You remind of the Pharisees criticizing the apostles for “harvesting” on the Sabbath because they plucked a few heads of wheat as they were walking through a field. Paul, what is the “spirit” of the WoW? You really need to ask yourself that question.

we have made sacred covenants not to do somethings we have excepted these obligations and must live them. and the lord has not stated that we can cook with wine and unless we are so perfect that we don’t need the lord then its fine eat drink for tomorow we die. break a little law here and there it will not hurt. if your view is that we can do what we fancy and ignore the law then you may be in trouble. the bishop had not sinned when he ate the sauce. its when he wanted more knowing the content of it that is when he became a hypocrite.

 

[paul_barlow]

Tmaque:

LDS most certainly can cook with wine. My LDS family cooks with wine all the time. Every summer my Mom makes brats boiled in beer. My LDS Mom makes the best beef stew in the world made with lots of Cabernet Sauvignon.

then i think your mum needs to have a chat with her bishop. the w o w is clear eating the stuff is just as bad as drinking it. thats why your mums bishop would be a bit puzzled in a temple recommend interview. where does she get the scriptural backing to do this. if she does this she may as well pop down to the pub. its wrong simple.

d&c 89:7 and again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

 

[paul_barlow]

Jerusha:

I would not criticize him for that reaction, or call it hypocritical. I would criticize his judgmental friends, however.

The body normally produces a small amount of alcohol in the digestive tract. It is insignificant, I agree. However, one should be conscious of dietary restrictions for anyone. There are many recovering alcoholics who are phobic about alcohol, and might be hypersensitive, in addition. They might be so phobic about alcohol that, knowing they had unintentionally gotten some minute amount, they would then have a struggle to not “continue the process” into getting drunk.

see my other other posting about the bishop.

good point. but the law is also spiritual the lord has commanded us not to do something. and when a law is there we must keep it.

 

[paul_barlow]

BJ Colbert:

I too drink diet coke(decaffinated) by the case at least 1 can every two days, and occasionally a diet coke or pepsi(no discrimination here) with all the caffiene left in it(like at restuarants)
I do not think you will go to outer darkness(where ever that is)because of green tea. In fact I do not think anyone will go to outer darkness for drinking anything at all that they wish to drink.
I go into Starbucks every day to get my husband his Cappucino, and I do not think he is going to outer darkness, but he has switched to decaffinated and feels better for it. Says he can’t tell the difference in taste.
For myself, caffiene keeps me up all night and makes me jittery, so I personally try to avoid it.
BJ

if i am right you husband is not a member so he can drink what he likes. so going to starbucks for his coffee is fine. its a point of intrest that coke is not condemed so enjoy you pepsi (do i get a few case for advertising it) and enjoy you chocolate. i though5t that it was untill i found de caffinated coke in the mtc

 

[catsrus]

d&c 89:7 and again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

(NAB) 1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, but have a little wine for the sake of your stomach and frequent illnesses.

 

[Tmaque]

paul barlow:

then i think your mum needs to have a chat with her bishop. the w o w is clear eating the stuff is just as bad as drinking it. thats why your mums bishop would be a bit puzzled in a temple recommend interview. where does she get the scriptural backing to do this. if she does this she may as well pop down to the pub. its wrong simple.

d&c 89:7 and again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

My Mom isn’t DRINKING brats or stew. To my knowledge, the LDS Church has not officially condemned the eating of food cooked with wine or beer. As far as “scriptural backing” goes she and most other LDS break it all the time. She’s breaking the WoW by eating brats in the summer not by cooking the brats in beer. This is because the WoW forbids eating meat in the summer. It absolutely does NOT restrict the consumption of beer in any way.

Please don’t confuse the modern LDS WoW with the scriptural version which starts off by saying it’s NOT a commandment. The modern LDS WoW is unscriptural (I don’t consider the D&C scripture but that’s another argument).

 

[Tmaque]

quote=catsrus 1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, but have a little wine for the sake of your stomach and frequent illnesses.
[/quote]

Here comes the grape juice argument.

 

[paul_barlow]

quote=catsrus 1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, but have a little wine for the sake of your stomach and frequent illnesses.
[/quote]

Thats fine but we have modern revelation and treat it as important as the Biblical revelations. the w of w is directed to members of the church. I hope that you study your churchs teaching as well as you do ours. why do you find our teachings so difficult to understand we dont drink. I am not going to bible bash with you over this there is no point leviticus 10:9, 1tim 3:3,

 

[paul_barlow]

Tmaque:

My Mom isn’t DRINKING brats or stew. To my knowledge, the LDS Church has not officially condemned the eating of food cooked with wine or beer. As far as “scriptural backing” goes she and most other LDS break it all the time. She’s breaking the WoW by eating brats in the summer not by cooking the brats in beer. This is because the WoW forbids eating meat in the summer. It absolutely does NOT restrict the consumption of beer in any way.

Please don’t confuse the modern LDS WoW with the scriptural version which starts off by saying it’s NOT a commandment. The modern LDS WoW is unscriptural (I don’t consider the D&C scripture but that’s another argument).

get her to check with her bishop

 

[majick275]

Perhaps it’s just me, but I see some serious inconsistencies. The scriptures are pretty clear that you shouldn’t get drunk but seem to recomend wine in moderation. Strong drink as used in the D&C refers to distilled alcohols like whiskey, thus the separate words about wine. Mild beverages made from grain(which is recomended by the WoW) are considered by many to include beer. BY actually directed the LDS traveling to Utah to bring coffee and tea. (they were told to bring strong drink too, but this was stated as being for medicinal purposes such as the “washing of your bodies”)

Psalm 104:

1*4 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart.*

Prov. 31:

6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

John 2:

*1 AND the athird• day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, aWoman•, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the apurifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

11 This abeginning• of bmiracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.*

2 Nephi 9:

*49 Behold, my soul abhorreth sin, and my heart adelighteth in righteousness; and I will bpraise• the holy name of my God.

50 Come, my brethren, every one that athirsteth•, come ye to the bwaters; and he that hath no cmoney•, come buy and eat; yea, come buy wine and milk without money and without price.*

3 Nephi 20:

5 And when they had given unto the multitude he also gave them wine to drink, and commanded them that they should give unto the multitude.

D&C 20:

*75 It is expedient that the church ameet together often to bpartake• of cbread and wine in the dremembrance of the Lord Jesus;
D&C 27:

5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will adrink• of the fruit of the bvine• with you on the earth, and with cMoroni•, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the drecord of the estick• of fEphraim;

now if we are going to be sticklers for the LAW, then why isn’t this just as important for determining Temple worthiness?

D&C 89:

*12 Yea, aflesh• also of bbeasts• and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used csparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused•, only in times of winter, or of cold, or bfamine.*

 

[paul_barlow]

Tmaque:

Here comes the grape juice argument.

this is aimed at the lds church. if you want to drink go ahead it does not bother me. again study your churchs teachings as well as you do ours and except that we are diffrent from you. is that so hard

 

[paul_barlow]

majick275:

Perhaps it’s just me, but I see some serious inconsistencies. The scriptures are pretty clear that you shouldn’t get drunk but seem to recomend wine in moderation. Strong drink as used in the D&C refers to distilled alcohols like whiskey, thus the separate words about wine. Mild beverages made from grain(which is recomended by the WoW) are considered by many to include beer. BY actually directed the LDS traveling to Utah to bring coffee and tea. (they were told to bring strong drink too, but this was stated as being for medicinal purposes such as the “washing of your bodies”)

Psalm 104:

1*4 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart.*

Prov. 31:

6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

John 2:

*1 AND the athird• day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, aWoman•, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the apurifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

11 This abeginning• of bmiracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him*.

2 Nephi 9:

*49 Behold, my soul abhorreth sin, and my heart adelighteth in righteousness; and I will bpraise• the holy name of my God.

50 Come, my brethren, every one that athirsteth•, come ye to the bwaters; and he that hath no cmoney•, come buy and eat; yea, come buy wine and milk without money and without price.*

3 Nephi 20:

5 And when they had given unto the multitude he also gave them wine to drink, and commanded them that they should give unto the multitude.

D&C 20:

*75 It is expedient that the church ameet together often to bpartake• of cbread and wine in the dremembrance of the Lord Jesus;
D&C 27:

5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will adrink• of the fruit of the bvine• with you on the earth, and with cMoroni•, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the drecord of the estick• of fEphraim;

now if we are going to be sticklers for the LAW, then why isn’t this just as important for determining Temple worthiness?

D&C 89:

*12 Yea, aflesh• also of bbeasts• and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used csparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused•, only in times of winter, or of cold, or bfamine.*

whats your problem we except it as scripture you don’t.
if we are wrong it hurts no one. if we are right then repent.

 

[majick275]

no problem. I find it confusing. Which part of the WoW must you keep to be temple worthy? if not all of it then why?

I certainly accept the Bible scriptures. I was stating the confusion caused by trying to reconcile those AND the BoM/D&C scriptures that I referenced with the actual practices in the LDS church.

When even LDS scriptures seem to indicate that there are situations where drinking wine is okay then do you not see where one might get confused?

 

[paul_barlow]

majick275:

no problem. I find it confusing. Which part of the WoW must you keep to be temple worthy? if not all of it then why?

I certainly accept the Bible scriptures. I was stating the confusion caused by trying to reconcile those AND the BoM/D&C scriptures that I referenced with the actual practices in the LDS church.

When even LDS scriptures seem to indicate that there are situations where drinking wine is okay then do you not see where one might get confused?

check the date of the wow and you will find no scripture that argues diffrently from the w o w. but of course this will not satisfy you.