Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

[JMM1957]

Mormons ARE monotheists: we believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 3 individuals whom are 1 God united in will/purpose/perfection (as opposed the Trinitarian united via co-substantiation). In the Mormon view, this is still completely monotheistic because to worship the Father is to worship the Son because they are completely united. To follow the Son’s commandments is to follow the Father’s commandments. This view is supported in scripture: where husbands and wives are commanded to be one, we are also commanded to one with each other, and Jesus sacrifice enables us to (after repentance and perfection) be one with God.

As long as you keep referring to the Godhead as three separate individuals or beings, you cannot claim to be monotheists the way I see it. It doesn’t matter if they are united in will and purpose. For example, if I gather a group of carpenters together to build a whole house from the ground up, we are just as much united in will and purpose, but we are all still separate individuals or beings. I know that the Mormon view is that the Father, Son and HS are considered to be “one God”, but it defies logic imo.

A question I have from the LDS website:

“The true doctrine of the Godhead was lost in the apostasy that followed the Savior’s mortal ministry and the deaths of His Apostles. This doctrine began to be restored when 14-year-old Joseph Smith received his First Vision (see Joseph Smith—History 1:17). From the Prophet’s account of the First Vision and from his other teachings,** we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones,** and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit” (see D&C 130:22).

How do you explain the above with what Jesus says in John 4:23-24, "23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Also:
Luke 24:39
39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see,** for a spirit does not have flesh and bones **as you see that I have.” If Jesus tells us that the Father is Spirit in John, then how can the LDS claim the Father has a tangible body of flesh and bone?

 

[jane_doe]

As long as you keep referring to the Godhead as three separate individuals or beings, you cannot claim to be monotheists the way I see it. It doesn’t matter if they are united in will and purpose.

I’m not trying to convince you to see it any other way, I’m just sharing how LDS see it.

How do you explain the above with what Jesus says in John 4:23-24, "23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

“Spirit” in this context is an adjective. Same as “God is Love”. It is not a noun.

39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see,** for a spirit does not have flesh and bones **as you see that I have.” If Jesus tells us that the Father is Spirit in John, then how can the LDS claim the Father has a tangible body of flesh and bone?

This passage states a spirit, using “spirit” as a noun.

 

[Stephen168]

A question I have from the LDS website:

“The true doctrine of the Godhead was lost in the apostasy that followed the Savior’s mortal ministry and the deaths of His Apostles. This doctrine began to be restored when 14-year-old Joseph Smith received his First Vision (see Joseph Smith—History 1:17). From the Prophet’s account of the First Vision and from his other teachings,** we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones,** and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit” (see D&C 130:22).

How do you explain the above with what Jesus says in John 4:23-24, "23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Also:
Luke 24:39
39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see,** for a spirit does not have flesh and bones **as you see that I have.” If Jesus tells us that the Father is Spirit in John, then how can the LDS claim the Father has a tangible body of flesh and bone?

Mormonism started in 1830 as a Christian religion.
In 1834, the Mormon leadership, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and Frederick G. Williams wrote Lectures on Faith which were included in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants (Mormon scripture).
Lectures on Faith-1834:

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things—by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space—They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, … And he being the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fulness of the glory of the Father—possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things:

…
Clearly, in 1834 Mormons believed the Father is a spirit, and the Father and Son and maybe the Holy Spirit are one.
By 1835, Joseph Smith was teaching polytheism and by 1843, when D&C 130 was written, he was teaching that god was flesh and bone.

Joseph Smith lead his followers out of Christianity.

 

[JMM1957]

Mormonism started in 1830 as a Christian religion.
In 1834, the Mormon leadership, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and Frederick G. Williams wrote Lectures on Faith which were included in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants (Mormon scripture).

…
Clearly, in 1834 Mormons believed the Father is a spirit, and the Father and Son and maybe the Holy Spirit are one.
By 1835, Joseph Smith was teaching polytheism and by 1843, when D&C 130 was written, he was teaching that god was flesh and bone.

Joseph Smith lead his followers out of Christianity.

If one believes in continuing divine (public) revelation, then this is understandable.

 

[JMM1957]

Originally Posted by JMM1957 :
How do you explain the above with what Jesus says in John 4:23-24, "23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

jane-doe:
“Spirit” in this context is an adjective. Same as “God is Love”. It is not a noun.

Jesus says that God is Spirit, that means the Father is a spirit. We are human beings with flesh and bone, God is a spirit, no flesh and bone. This is what Jesus is saying in the two verses I quoted in post #481.

 

[jane_doe]

Jesus says that God is Spirit, that means the Father is a spirit.

I prefer to go with what the verse says, which is without the “a”, and is an adjective.

 

[JMM1957]

I prefer to go with what the verse says, which is without the “a”, and is an adjective.

Adjective is “a word or phrase naming an attribute, added to or grammatically related to a noun to modify or** describe **it.”

The noun is “God”. The attribute of God is that He is a “spirit”. Whether or not the letter “a” precedes it is of no consequence in this instance. What does “God is spirit” mean to you?

 

[Stephen168]

If one believes in continuing divine (public) revelation, then this is understandable.

Yes, a “prophet” like Joseph Smith is not new.

Hegesippus:

But Thebuthis, because he was not made bishop, began to corrupt it. He also was sprung from the seven sects among the people, like Simon, from whom came the Simonians, and Cleobius, from whom came the Cleobians, and Dositheus, from whom came the Dositheans, and Gorthæus, from whom came the Goratheni, and Masbotheus, from whom came the Masbothæans. From them sprang the Menandrianists, and Marcionists, and Carpocratians, and Valentinians, and Basilidians, and Saturnilians. Each introduced privately and separately his own peculiar opinion. From them came false Christs, false prophets, false apostles, who divided the unity of the Church by corrupt doctrines uttered against God and against his Christ.

 

[jane_doe]

What does “God is spirit” mean to you?

It is an adjective, describing one of His many qualities. It does not mean that God is a spirit, no more than “God is Light” literally means that God is a photon whose wavelength is in the visible spectrum, or the “God is love” mean that God is nothing more than an emotion.

 

[Stephen168]

What does “God is spirit” mean to you?
jane_doe;14157223:

It is an adjective, describing one of His many qualities. It does not mean that God is a spirit, no more than “God is Light” literally means that God is a photon whose wavelength is in the visible spectrum, or the “God is love” mean that God is nothing more than an emotion.

Believing that the Father is flesh and bone is an invention of Joseph Smith, it was never a Christian belief.

This is another example of Mormonism being an invention and not a restoration as they claim.

 

[StevenFrancis]

I have always debated this. From what I have read they do have similarities however the differences make it impossible for a traditional Christian to accept these groups as Christian. I try to give them a second doubt as some Protestant Christians say Catholics aren’t Christian. In any case this is how their websites defend them as being Christian. Thoughts please as I am very conflicted on this.

jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/are-jehovahs-witnesses-christians/
ttps://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/about-mormons/question/mormon-christian

To the extent that they comply in doctrine with Christianity, one could call them Christians, however, it is always important to note that they were both born of, and continue to foster doctrines which are heretical to true Christianity, but this is not the fault of the layity who were brought up in those faith traditions since their youth, or those who were indoctrinated by LDS or JW missionaries at a time when they were spiritually vulnerable and uncatechized. I pray for them that it is simply a part of their journey. I had quite a strange path I had to go through to find myself in Christian truth, having spent most of my life in Buddhist thought.

When exposed to the truth in a loving manner by non heretical Christians, many to eventually convert, if they can be shown where their doctrines are in error, and they seek the help of the Holy Spirit. The continuing witness of the Catholic faithful with prayer to the Holy Spirit is deeply important, and many of both faiths in fact come here to hear our witness of the full truth of Christianity.

 

[Stephen168]

I’m not trying to convince you to see it any other way, I’m just sharing how LDS see it.

The point is that the way Mormons “see it” is not Christian.

 

[JMM1957]

It is an adjective,** describing one of His many qualities**. It does not mean that God is a spirit, no more than “God is Light” literally means that God is a photon whose wavelength is in the visible spectrum, or the “God is love” mean that God is nothing more than an emotion.

What is the quality or attribute of being “spirit” then? Please define it???

 

[JMM1957]

jane_doe,

More verses about God attributes:

1 Timothy 6:16
“who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light,** whom no man has seen or can see** To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”

1 Timothy 1:17
“Now to the King eternal, immortal,** invisible, the only God**, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.”

Romans 1:20
“For since the creation of the world** His invisible attributes**, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”

Interesting also, that the second quote says God is “the only God”.

 

[jane_doe]

jane_doe,

More verses about God attributes:

1 Timothy 6:16
“who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light,** whom no man has seen or can see** To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”

1 Timothy 1:17
“Now to the King eternal, immortal,** invisible, the only God**, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.”

Romans 1:20
“For since the creation of the world** His invisible attributes**, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”

Interesting also, that the second quote says God is “the only God”.

Would you mind replying more about the verses we’ve talked about thus far? Just so things feel more like a conversation and less like a questionnaire.

 

[JMM1957]

Would you mind replying more about the verses we’ve talked about thus far? Just so things feel more like a conversation and less like a questionnaire.

John 4 and Luke 24? I thought we already did that. If you have some specific questions for me about anything we’ve talked about, fire away.

 

[mackbrislawn]

It is an adjective, describing one of His many qualities. It does not mean that God is a spirit, no more than “God is Light” literally means that God is a photon whose wavelength is in the visible spectrum, or the “God is love” mean that God is nothing more than an emotion.

What if one were to say, “God is flesh.” What would that mean?

 

[jane_doe]

John 4 and Luke 24? I thought we already did that. If you have some specific questions for me about anything we’ve talked about, fire away.

Why do you take “God is Spirit” to mean “God is a spirit”, but not take “God is light” to mean “God is a photon of light”?

 

[jane_doe]

What if one were to say, “God is flesh.” What would that mean?

Bad English. How about you?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Bad English. How about you?

I’d assume the person were referring to Jesus - God the Son, in the flesh.