Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

[JMM1957]

According to LDS:

The true doctrine of the Godhead was lost in the apostasy that followed the Savior’s mortal ministry and the deaths of His Apostles. This doctrine began to be restored when 14-year-old Joseph Smith received his First Vision (see Joseph Smith—History 1:17). From the Prophet’s account of the First Vision and from his other teachings, we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (see D&C 130:22).

I understand that the HS is able to dwell in us because it is fully spirit, whereas the Father and Son have flesh and bones so they could not enter us. Is that correct?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Yes I do actually. Because Timothy is not referring to any of these things in the list, even the etc. God is said to be “invisible” in the verse.

Technically invisible could encompass something hidden, Jane, if thats where you want to go… simply unseen or veiled but still bones and flesh. Like radiation is invisible if you dont have the right equipment

 

[jane_doe]

Yes I do actually. Because Timothy is not referring to any of these things in the list, even the etc. God is said to be “invisible” in the verse.

According to the attributes you’ve listed here: God could be oxygen. All of the descriptors you have listed thus far fit describe the oxygen. Therefore, do you conclude that God= oxygen? Or the wind, or an emotion, or radiation, or any other number of things.

The verses you’ve listed in no way logically limit the Father to being a spirit.

 

[jane_doe]

According to LDS:

The true doctrine of the Godhead was lost in the apostasy that followed the Savior’s mortal ministry and the deaths of His Apostles. This doctrine began to be restored when 14-year-old Joseph Smith received his First Vision (see Joseph Smith—History 1:17). From the Prophet’s account of the First Vision and from his other teachings, we know that the members of the Godhead are three separate beings. The Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, and the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (see D&C 130:22).

I understand that the HS is able to dwell in us because it is fully spirit, whereas the Father and Son have flesh and bones so they could not enter us. Is that correct?

I’ll address this once we finish our other tangent.

 

[SyroMalankara]

According to the attributes you’ve listed here: God could be oxygen. All of the descriptors you have listed thus far fit describe the oxygen. Therefore, do you conclude that God= oxygen? Or the wind, or an emotion, or radiation, or any other number of things.

The verses you’ve listed in no way logically limit the Father to being a spirit.

It does if unless you conclude a greater god created this one, like God created oxygen (or allowed for the processes for oxygen to come about)

 

[JMM1957]

It does if unless you conclude a greater god created this one, like God created oxygen (or allowed for the processes for oxygen to come about)

Again I ask, please give me your definition of spirit, not from a dictionary.

 

[JMM1957]

It does if unless you conclude a greater god created this one, like God created oxygen (or allowed for the processes for oxygen to come about)

 

[jane_doe]

It does if unless you conclude a greater god created this one, like God created oxygen (or allowed for the processes for oxygen to come about)

And one could make the same argument for spirits.

 

[jane_doe]

Again I ask, please give me your definition of spirit, not from a dictionary.

My definition is the dictionary definition.

 

[JMM1957]

According to the attributes you’ve listed here: God could be oxygen. All of the descriptors you have listed thus far fit describe the oxygen. ** Therefore, do you conclude that God= oxygen? Or the wind, or an emotion, or radiation, or any other number of things. **

The verses you’ve listed in no way logically limit the Father to being a spirit.

I think the preponderance of evidence from those verses, and many others I could supply if needed, indicates that God the Father was understood to be a Spirit by the authors of the NT.

 

[JMM1957]

My definition is the dictionary definition.

If you insist. Better to have that, than nothing at all.

 

[SyroMalankara]

And one could make the same argument for spirits.

Except it isnt spirit(s) we are discussing the Godhead, but Spirit.

 

[Stephen168]

Conclusion: you have submitted a single verse to build the case of the Father being a Spirit.

The conclusion is you have provided zero verses that show Christians ever believed the Father has a body of flesh and bone.

“God is spirit” clearly means God is spirit, not flesh and bones. It is so clear you can’t even guess what else it could possible mean.

You are forced to ignore the hard questions. I believe this is why most thinking Mormons don’t even try to defend Mormonism. They know it can’t rationally be done. You make statements that can’t be supported and you end up relying on your testimony as evidence.

 

[JMM1957]

According to the attributes you’ve listed here: God could be oxygen. All of the descriptors you have listed thus far fit describe the oxygen. Therefore, do you conclude that God= oxygen? Or the wind, or an emotion, or radiation, or any other number of things.

The verses you’ve listed in no way logically limit the Father to being a spirit.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and** being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,** He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (Philippians 2:5-8).

If Jesus existed in the form of God prior to coming into the world in the flesh, then what form was he in heaven?

 

[jane_doe]

I think the preponderance of evidence from those verses, and many others I could supply if needed, indicates that God the Father was understood to be a Spirit by the authors of the NT.

But only one verse even quasi addressed the topic, and does not say “God is a Spirit”.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and** being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,** He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (Philippians 2:5-8).

If Jesus existed in the form of God prior to coming into the world in the flesh, then what form was he in heaven?

This is talking about the Son, not the Father.

 

[JMM1957]

Originally Posted by JMM1957
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (Philippians 2:5-8).

If Jesus existed in the form of God prior to coming into the world in the flesh, then what form was he in heaven?

jane said: This is talking about the Son, not the Father.

Correct, the Son existed in the form of God, and did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. The Son humbled and emptied himself coming in the form of a man. Again, if Jesus came to earth in the form of a man, then what was he prior to that in heaven??? The answer is, he was in the form of God, a spirit. There was a change in form that occured from heaven to earth.

 

[JMM1957]

But only one verse even quasi addressed the topic, and does not say “God is a Spirit”./B]

This is talking about the Son, not the Father.

Maybe its time you give some Scripture (the Bible of course) to back up your claim that God the Father is flesh and bone. Please make sure that the verse/s specifically state the words **“God the Father is flesh and bone.”**If you can demand to see exact wording from me, I should expect the same in return.

 

[jane_doe]

Originally Posted by JMM1957
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (Philippians 2:5-8).

If Jesus existed in the form of God prior to coming into the world in the flesh, then what form was he in heaven?

jane said: This is talking about the Son, not the Father.

Correct, the Son existed in the form of God, and did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. The Son humbled and emptied himself coming in the form of a man. Again, if Jesus came to earth in the form of a man, then what was he prior to that in heaven??? The answer is, he was in the form of God, a spirit. There was a change in form that occured from heaven to earth.

This verse does not say a single thing about the Father.

 

[jane_doe]

Maybe its time you give some Scripture (the Bible of course) to back up your claim that God the Father is flesh and bone. Please make sure that the verse/s specifically state the words **“God the Father is flesh and bone.”**If you can demand to see exact wording from me, I should expect the same in return.

I sure can provide scripture that says that, but then you will say “that doesn’t count- there is no scripture outside of the Bible, because revelation ceased after the Apostolic age”. Then I will ask “where in the Bible does it say that an unchanged God stops giving revelation?” And then you will not be able to do so, and change the subject.

 

[JMM1957]

I sure can provide scripture that says that, but then you will say “that doesn’t count- there is no scripture outside of the Bible, because revelation ceased after the Apostolic age”. Then I will ask “where in the Bible does it say that an unchanged God stops giving revelation?” And then you will not be able to do so, and change the subject.

This is why I specified using only the Bible. You cannot prove your point using only the Bible, you must use “those other books” that you claim are also inspired scripture written 1800 yrs. later. Paul refers to the gospel he preached, that was revealed to him by Jesus himself, as being sufficient:

1 Cor. 15:

1
Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand.
2
Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
4
that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures

The point is, jane doe, that it matters not, whether you personally believe divine revelation continued after the Apostolic age. The fact is, Paul taught that the gospel he preached was sufficient for one’s salvation. Nothing more was needed to gain eternal life if the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ that he preached was believed and adhered to. Why was Paul’s preaching of the gospel not good enough, that it needed to be “restored”?