Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

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The question: *“Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians?” *is under the frequently asked questions on their official website - JW.org

jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/are-jehovahs-witnesses-christians/

So that is their official belief on the subject, comlete with supporting scriptures.

Lots of the other misconceptions about them are discussed their too.

Enjoy. 😉
Greetings Logically it has been a while. Hope you are doing well.

If declaring something on your website makes it true then you will be supprised to know Catholics do NOT worship Mary - as declaried on our website 😛

Peace!!!
 
The question: *“Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians?” *is under the frequently asked questions on their official website - JW.org

jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/are-jehovahs-witnesses-christians/

So that is their official belief on the subject, comlete with supporting scriptures.

Lots of the other misconceptions about them are discussed their too.

Enjoy. 😉
Logically, I have noticed this many times with regard to yourself and other JW’s. Why do you refer to JW beliefs as “their” belief rather than “our” belief ?

Same question - you mention “misconceptions about them” rather than “misconceptions about us”

As I say, I have seen other JW do this and just seems odd to me.
 
Logically, I have noticed this many times with regard to yourself and other JW’s. Why do you refer to JW beliefs as “their” belief rather than “our” belief ?

Same question - you mention “misconceptions about them” rather than “misconceptions about us”

As I say, I have seen other JW do this and just seems odd to me.
Hopefully, he is beginning to distance himself from the religion. He might still believe most of what they believe but maybe has begun to question a few of their doctrines, making it hard to claim “our” and “us”. Please let us know if this is the case Logically.
 
Hopefully, he is beginning to distance himself from the religion. He might still believe most of what they believe but maybe has begun to question a few of their doctrines, making it hard to claim “our” and “us”. Please let us know if this is the case Logically.
No.

😃
 
Although I think the two groups are incredibly heretical in beliefs, one has to stop and ask what a Christian is. In an Orthodox view the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestant denominations fit this view because they accept the Nicene Creed as the truth of what a Christian is defined as being. However prior to this in the 4th century, many heresies were stamped out. Case in point, Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses believe an apostasy occurred after the last Apostles died thus claim they are in fact the true Christian faith restored. So it comes down to whether or not you can accept that some groups take pride in not affirming to the Creed. With that however I don’t understand why they accept the Churches New Testament as scripture in that case.
 
Case in point, Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses believe an apostasy occurred after the last Apostles died thus claim they are in fact the true Christian faith restored. So it comes down to whether or not you can accept that some groups take pride in not affirming to the Creed. With that however I don’t understand why they accept the Churches New Testament as scripture in that case.
Not only that, the JW have significantly altered the text of the NT. If you ever look in their interlinear versions from 1969(?) and 1984 they missed a couple of spots where their NWT English text does not even match the translated text that sits above the Greek in the other column of the translation.
 
Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (emphasis mine)

Any church that views itself as a restoration argues, by existential necessity, that “the gates of hell” actually did prevail against the Church, if only for a short while. Thereby Christ is made a liar.

It’s really is that simple.

The Church is ancient or it doesn’t exist.
 
Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (emphasis mine)
Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.(emphasis mine)
Any church that views itself as a restoration argues, by existential necessity, that “the gates of hell” actually did prevail against the Church, if only for a short while. Thereby Christ is made a liar.
Any church that views itself as the original argues, by existential necessity, that “the flock” was spared. Thereby Christ (through His Apostle) is made a liar.
It’s really is that simple.
It’s really is that simple.
The Church is ancient or it doesn’t exist.
The Church has to be restored or it doesn’t exist.
 
Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.(emphasis mine)
And in the context of the whole passage…

Acts 2:25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.** 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

Distortion corrected. Unless the elder’s of Ephesus Paul was speaking to were the specific men that destroyed the Church. 👍
So what date, exactly, did Christ unending Church fail? I’m collecting all the different dates each Mormon gives me.

If the Church failed then Christ lied. Period. Of course, if he was the Devil’s “spirit brother”, as you say, he may have.

You believe in a text that says horses and honey bees existed in the New World centuries before the Spanish factually brought them because the fraud that wrote it didn’t know any better.

The only “archeologists” that are shameless enough to suggest that Pre-Columbian architecture is Jewish are exclusively Mormons trying to validate Smith’s forgery.

The absurdity of the Book of Mormon is only matched by the absurdity by which it was supposedly revealed - with a man holding a hat against his face, discerning what a rock inside it told him…

But I agree with your elders, it looks WAY better to keep producing pictures of the golden tablets, even if it IS blatantly deceptive. But if the shoe fits…**
 
And in the context of the whole passage…

Acts 2:25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.** 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.** 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

Distortion corrected. Unless the elder’s of Ephesus Paul was speaking to were the specific men that destroyed the Church. 👍

Funny how in Revelation 2:5 the Ephesians were threatened with having the presence of God Removed from them for their misdeeds.

Revelation 2:5 Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

The lampstand clearly represents God’s presence here.
Vonsalza;14477048:
So what date, exactly, did Christ unending Church fail? I’m collecting all the different dates each Mormon gives me.
That’s like asking when someone’s hair turned grey. Apostasy was a gradual process. There are a myriad if historical indicators.

Eusebius, quoting Hegesippus on the subject of false teachers and referring to the condition of the Church about the close of the first century:

The Church continued until then as a pure and uncorrupt virgin, whilst if there were any at all that attempted to pervert the sound doctrine of the saving Gospel, they were yet skulking in dark retreats: but when the sacred choir of Apostles became extinct, and the generation of those that had been privileged to hear their inspired wisdom had passed away, then also the combinations of impious errors arose by the fraud and delusions of false teachers. These also, as there were none of the Apostles left, henceforth attempted without shame, to preach their false doctrine against the gospel of truth. (Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, bk. 3, ch. 32)

Eusebius referring to his own day wrote:

We [sank] into negligence and sloth, One in being and reviling another in different ways, and we were almost, as it were, on the point of taking up arms against each other, and where is sailing each other with words as with darts and Spears, prelates inveighing against prelates, and people rising up against people, and hypocrisy and dissimulation had arisen to the greatest height of malignity; … we added one wickedness in misery to another. But some that appeared to be our pastors, deserting the law of piety, were inflamed against each other with mutual strides, only accumulating quarrels and threats, rivalship, hostility and hatred to each other. (Eusebius, ecclesiastical history, 8:318)

Tertullian observed “The gospel was wrong we preached; men wrongly believed; so many thousands were wrongly baptized… so many priestly functions, so many ministries were wrongly executed.” (The Ante-Niceness Fathers, 3:256)

Adolf von Harnack commented on the much-changed Christianity after a century of compromise and worldly assimilation:

If we place ourselves about the year 200, about 100 or 120 years after the apostolic age… what kind of spectacle does the Christian religion offer?.. The living faith seems to be transformed into a creed… devotion to Christ, into Christology… prophecy, into technical exegesis and theological learning; The ministers of the Spirit, into clerics… miracles and miraculous cures disappear altogether… The “Spirit” becomes law and compulsion… this enormous transformation took place within 120 years. (Von Harnack, What is Christianity? 192-93)"

Cyril of Jerusalem stated…

Thus wrote Paul, and now is the falling away. For men have fallen away from the right faith; and some preach the identity of the Son with the Father, and others dare say that Christ was brought into being out of nothing. And formally the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise. For men have fallen away from the truth, and have itching ears. It is a plausible discourse? All listen to it gladly. Is it a word of correction? All turn away from it. Most have departed from right words, and rather choose the evil, than desire the good. This therefore is the falling away, and the enemy is soon to be looked for… (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15:9, in NPNF Series 2, 7:106-107)
If the Church failed then Christ lied. Period. Of course, if he was the Devil’s “spirit brother”, as you say, he may have.
Since the Bible refers to Satan as a son of God, and I assume you believe Jesus is the Son of God, that kind of makes them brothers.

Job 1:6 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,** the satan also came among them**.

Job 2:1 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, the satan also came with them.
 
And in the context of the whole passage…



But I agree with your elders, it looks WAY better to keep producing pictures of the golden tablets, even if it IS blatantly deceptive. But if the shoe fits…
This is how the LDS works. Takes verses and snippets of text out of context to make it seem it says something different than it does.
 
Funny how in Revelation 2:5 the Ephesians were threatened with having the presence of God Removed from them for their misdeeds.
The lampstand clearly represents God’s presence here.
Sure it does. It also clearly states that the lamp will persist if they repent. This is an ancient, thoroughly Catholic understanding as well. As a bonus, the Catholic interpretation doesn’t require Christ be made a liar through the failure of the Church.
That’s like asking when someone’s hair turned grey. Apostasy was a gradual process. There are a myriad if historical indicators.
If you can’t identify a date when the Church was dead, your argument that it died is severely impaired because it inherently invites the possibility that it didn’t actually fail… Sorta like how God-Incarnate said it wouldn’t…
Eusebius, quoting Hegesippus on the subject of false teachers and referring to the condition of the Church about the close of the first century:

Eusebius referring to his own day wrote:
I love it, love it, love it when non-Catholics quote Catholic clergy in support of their non-Catholicism. It reminds me of Baptist Seminary courses filled with quotes from Saint Augustine.
2 Peter 3:15-17 So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this[c] as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
(Emphasis mine)

So you like Eusebius?
“For he appeared unto them again alive on the third day, the divine prophets having told these and countless other wonderful things concerning him. Moreover, the race of Christians, named after him, continues down to the present day.” - Eusebius, “History of the Church”

And as you like Tertullian -
“For the very Church itself is, properly and principally, the Spirit Himself, in whom is the Trinity of the One Divinity----Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” -“The Ante-Nicene Fathers”
The Holy Spirit can’t die because it is God…

And I’d like to remind you that Saint Cyril was yet another Catholic Bishop.
“Your accumulated offenses surpass not the multitude of God’s mercies: your wounds surpass not the great Physician’s skill.” Saint Cyril, “Catechetical Lecture 2”
Any and all can repent, no “great apostasy” required.
Since the Bible refers to Satan as a son of God, and I assume you believe Jesus is the Son of God, that kind of makes them brothers.
Job 1:6 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,** the satan also came among them**.
Job 2:1 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, the satan also came with them.
What a twisted version of scripture you read…
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord.

Satan is obviously identified in the text as something other - the embodiment of deceit that he is. Please re-read 2 Peter 3:15-17 and apply it to your forgery of a faith.

Do you have any more Mormon heresies you’d like for me to clear up for you?

Additionally, have you prepared answers for my other, more material concerns? I’ll relist them:
You believe in a text that says horses and honey bees existed in the New World centuries before the Spanish factually brought them because the fraud that wrote it didn’t know any better.

The only “archeologists” that are shameless enough to suggest that Pre-Columbian architecture is Jewish are exclusively Mormons trying to validate Smith’s forgery.

The absurdity of the Book of Mormon is only matched by the absurdity by which it was supposedly revealed - with a man holding a hat against his face, discerning what a rock inside it told him…

But I agree with your elders, it looks WAY better to keep producing pictures of the golden tablets, even if it IS blatantly deceptive. But if the shoe fits…
 
Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (emphasis mine)

Any church that views itself as a restoration argues, by existential necessity, that “the gates of hell” actually did prevail against the Church, if only for a short while. Thereby Christ is made a liar.

It’s really is that simple.

The Church is ancient or it doesn’t exist.
Please explain to me how the phrase “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [the Church]” means that the church Christ established anciently will never fail. “hell” in Matthew 16:18 is translated from the Greek word “Hades”. See biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/16-18.htm.

The New Catholic dictionary tells us:
  1. “In the New Testament, Hades, formerly translated as hell, has a neutral character in contrast to gehenna, which is the place where the wicked are punished.”
  2. The expression “the gates of Hades” in the well–known Petrine text (Mt 16.18) refers not to diabolical powers but to the kingdom of death. Peter’s power reaches even into the kingdom of death; death will never overcome it.
  3. From the New Testament it is evident that Hades is not to be equated with Gehenna, for the good as well as the bad descend to Hades.
See encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/hades.

And gates obviously are… gates! Gates are not weapons, but rather barriers. So, the barriers of a temporary dwelling place of the deceased - both good and bad souls - will not prevail against the church. In other words, the church will be able to impact those deceased souls in a positive way. The church is clearly in no way threatened by the gates circling the inhabitants of Hades. Oh, and looky here! 1 Peter 3:19, 20 tells us that Jesus preached to the disobedient souls from the time of Noah! Before Peter wrote 1 Peter Jesus had already passed through the gates encircling those disobedient souls. Clearly whatever Hades has to offer will not adversely impact the church. But this verse does not say nor imply that nothing will adversely impact the church.
 
If you can’t identify a date when the Church was dead, your argument that it died is severely impaired because it inherently invites the possibility that it didn’t actually fail… Sorta like how God-Incarnate said it wouldn’t…
Just because one cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint the date of hair turning grey doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
I love it, love it, love it when non-Catholics quote Catholic clergy in support of their non-Catholicism. It reminds me of Baptist Seminary courses filled with quotes from Saint Augustine.
Really!! I’ve even seen Eastern Orthodox quoting ancient Catholic clergy in support of their non-Catholicism. Can you believe it?!?!
2 Peter 3:15-17 So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this[c] as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
(Emphasis mine)
Whether you meant it or not, the highlighting of words like “ignorant” and “unstable” comes across as name calling while using scripture as a justification to do so.
So you like Eusebius?
“For he appeared unto them again alive on the third day, the divine prophets having told these and countless other wonderful things concerning him. Moreover, the race of Christians, named after him, continues down to the present day.” - Eusebius, “History of the Church”
Just because there continued to be a group a people who called themselves Christians doesn’t mean that the authority of God remained in that church.
And as you like Tertullian -
“For the very Church itself is, properly and principally, the Spirit Himself, in whom is the Trinity of the One Divinity----Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” -“The Ante-Nicene Fathers”
The Holy Spirit can’t die because it is God…
Are you saying the Holy Spirit is the Church? Is this a formal teaching of the RCC? Or did he say this as a Montanist?
And I’d like to remind you that Saint Cyril was yet another Catholic Bishop.
“Your accumulated offenses surpass not the multitude of God’s mercies: your wounds surpass not the great Physician’s skill.” Saint Cyril, “Catechetical Lecture 2”
Any and all can repent, no “great apostasy” required.
Should Eastern Orthodox shy away from quoting him also?
What a twisted version of scripture you read…
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord.
It seems odd for a Catholic to state that the Bible verses on the USCCB website are twisted.
Satan is obviously identified in the text as something other - the embodiment of deceit that he is. Please re-read 2 Peter 3:15-17 and apply it to your forgery of a faith.
I disagree with your interpretation. Nowhere is this verse is it stated that Satan was not a son of God.
Do you have any more Mormon heresies you’d like for me to clear up for you?
A rhetorical question akin to “Have you stopped beating your wife?”
Additionally, have you prepared answers for my other, more material concerns? I’ll relist them:
No. Are you not going to respond to the Von Harnack quote?
 
Please explain to me how the phrase “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [the Church]” means that the church Christ established anciently will never fail.
First, it’s not a literal gate. The word (πύλης),“gates” was also used in the context of authority, power and that which proceeds out of it. And there are many places in the NT where the word (Άͅδης),“sheol” is used to unambiguously refer to hell like Revelation 20:14–15.
Hell - This should clear up your misconceptions.

Second, you defended it well when you cited “Peter’s power reaches even into the kingdom of death; death will never overcome it.” You’re right. It simply cannot die. The church is death-proof.

Thanks for that!
Just because one cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint the date of hair turning grey doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
One can, however, provide a date where they were totally gray. Please provide a date where you’re positive the Church was dead and justify its selection.
Really!! I’ve even seen Eastern Orthodox quoting ancient Catholic clergy in support of their non-Catholicism. Can you believe it?!?!
Orthodox sacraments are valid as we were the same Church prior to the fall of Constantinople to the Venetians. I can believe it! They are our brothers. The only truly material gripe between us is what “papal primacy” means in practice.
Whether you meant it or not, the highlighting of words like “ignorant” and “unstable” comes across as name calling while using scripture as a justification to do so.
Taken from scripture. Identifying heresy is a high form of charity.
Just because there continued to be a group a people who called themselves Christians doesn’t mean that the authority of God remained in that church.
It also doesn’t mean the Church failed. Sinners are gonna sin… Then and now.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit is the Church? Is this a formal teaching of the RCC? Or did he say this as a Montanist?
The Holy Spirit preserves the Church as it dwells within its leadership and laity. The failure of the Church is the frustration of Pentecost. How weak the Spirit of God would be if that were possible.
Should Eastern Orthodox shy away from quoting him also?
Not at all. He’s part of both our common lineages.
It seems odd for a Catholic to state that the Bible verses on the USCCB website are twisted.
Poorly phrased on my part. Your desperate, heretical interpretation is source of twisting.
I disagree with your interpretation. Nowhere is this verse is it stated that Satan was not a son of God.
No fallacious arguments from absence, please. It also doesn’t say he was wearing a tu-tu and drinking Cherry Coke. Would you like to argue that he was? Such is the same foundation for calling him a “son”.
A rhetorical question akin to “Have you stopped beating your wife?”
Change that to “mother” and you’re getting somewhere. “Have you stopped beating Mother (Church) yet?”
No. Are you not going to respond to the Von Harnack quote?
I didn’t even read it. As Von Harnack isn’t a potential source of anything within the magisterium, of course I’m not going to respond. Anything he has to say is irrelevant as it’s not binding to me in any way. Opinions are like elbows (and other things).

If you wanna make an argument, make it.
 
Just because there continued to be a group a people who called themselves Christians doesn’t mean that the authority of God remained in that church.
That’s for sure. I know of a number of groups that call themselves Christian and it is obvious the authority of God is not in those churches.

However, the authority of God does reside in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Watchtower Society. I know, because they told me so themselves.
 
That’s for sure. I know of a number of groups that call themselves Christian and it is obvious the authority of God is not in those churches.

However, the authority of God does reside in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Watchtower Society. I know, because they told me so themselves.
I think the Moonies make a similar claim don’t they the unification Church?
 
I think the Moonies make a similar claim don’t they the unification Church?
The Moonies too?

You know something, why don’t we all just stick with the original Church that Jesus established. His Universal Church. Then we don’t have to worry about all these false claimants to being God’s church. And we’ll know for sure we’re Christian.
 
The Moonies too?

You know something, why don’t we all just stick with the original Church that Jesus established. His Universal Church. Then we don’t have to worry about all these false claimants to being God’s church. And we’ll know for sure we’re Christian.
So…we should all become Campbellites?😛
 
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