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Porknpie
Guest
Are there pictures that you can post? Cheaper than driving of flying down.
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Stephen168
New member
Biblical definition: John 1:1, John 8:58 and Ex 3:14, John 10:30, Philippians 2:5-8, Ephesians 4:4-6, Colossians 1:15-17 and Genesis 1:1-31, Colossians 2:9, Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, 1 Peter 1:1-2 as interpreted by the Catholic Church because it has true apostolic succession since the time of Christ.
The Catholic Church was started by Jesus Christ. He taught the Apostles and they taught us. The Church has grown to a world wide religion that speaks many many languages, therefore the only definitions that apply are 2 & 3. We are the Christians who get to decide who are our members. From Christ and the Apostles we are taught there is only one uncreated God and Christ and the Holy Spirit are God, so #3 includes #2, the trinity.
Arius (3rd century) invented the idea that the son was created while Joseph Smith (19th century) invented the idea that the Father and son were created. The Mormon understanding of God is too different to be Christian.
Stephen168
New member
I would say the God of Christians, Jews, and Muslims is an uncreated God who created everything. While the Mormon god was created and just organized this world from stuff that was already created. So Yes, the Mormon god is quite limited, and not the God of Christianity.
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batman1973
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I’ll see what I can do. In the mean time, google Adam-ondi-Ahman. ( I wish Joe could have invented easier words to type) I’t a real place here up north, closer to the Iowa border.
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Porknpie
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Was Joe ever there or did he simply pick a spot on a map?
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mtolympus
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Your Bible quotes teach us about Christ, but they say nothing about the term “Christian”. According to the Bible a Christian is a disciple of Christ. Jesus Himself tells us how to know a disciple/Christian:
- The Biblical definition of a Christian- “And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch”. (Acts 11:26). “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”. (John 13:35) “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.” (John 8:31)
You can do anything you want with your own definition but you can’t deny that an English language dictionary definition of “Christian” exists. Mormons didn’t write the definition but it is there:
- The dictionary definition: “Christian - A person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus.”
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nmgauss
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Which world? Is it the human world. It also might be the world of animals and plants. It also might be the world of Earth as it relates to the Moon and the Sun.
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mtolympus
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Thank you for your excellent explanation. So then, (even though it is true), would you agree with me that is would be inappropriate to characterize the Jesus that Catholics worship as: “Jesus the creator of Satan”?
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Porknpie
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while Jesus created Satan it would be inappropriate to characterize him as creating Satan. Better to say “Jesus the creator of all things”.
PnP
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TexanKnight
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and therein lies the reason you are not Christians. It is more than following some dude named Jesus. It is following THE Jesus. Not a Jesus who is the son of a once-sinful man, the borhter of Satan and who followed His God, Adam, to earth.
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JHow
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I realize your point is simply to deflect from a bizarre Mormon belief while attempting a Ty quoque here: but yes, you could just as easily say “creator of fleas, lice, chiggers and other itchy pests”. It doesn’t change the fact that the Mormon belief is un-orthodox.
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JHow
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But that’s the whole point, the dictionary definition fails in that it is circular, it doesn’t say what is meant by “the Christ” and doesn’t identify the teachings if Christ needed to distinguish the Christian. You, and we, must further define those terms. When we do, the conclusion is clear: Mormonism is not Christian in any meaningful way. I think you know this instinctively, else why the discomfort with crosses, or the flippant approach to “sacrament” (bread and water)? My sense in talking in person with Mormons is that you feel a great sense of being “other” , and “we are Christians like everybody else” is a comforting thought.
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Boatswain2PA
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So, if an atheist names his dog Jesus Christ, and he becomes a disciple of his dog, does that make the atheist a Christian?
NO. And neither does Mormon thinking that Jesus Christ was the son of a sexual relation between God (when he was a man) and Mary.
You may consider yourself a Christian, like the atheist who believes in his dog he named Jesus Christ can consider himself a Christian…but that doesn’t mean that anyone else will consider you one.
The bottom line with Mormonism is this: It teaches some very good family values, and I have never met a Mormon who I did not think was a very good person, but unfortunately the entire religion is a sham that was started by one very sick and twisted guy who was able to successfully manipulate his wife into engaging in polygamy.
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TexanKnight
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and he tried, with the William Law family, to enter into wife swapping. You can’t forget that.
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SteveVH
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Not sure I understand your statement. Yes, Jesus created Satan. Why would we ever want to shy away from that reality? He created him as the most beautiful of angels and gave him free will. The fact that Satan used his free will to rebel against God was not Jesus’ doing. Remember, he also created Nero and Hitler and Stalin and the rest of the gang.
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LivingWaters7
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While many people will say that LDS believe that Jesus is the “brother of Lucifer/Satan” to be inflammatory, it highlights a fundamental distinction in understanding the nature of Jesus, which isn’t captured when claiming that Catholics/traditional Christians believe that Jesus is the “creator of Satan”.
Traditional Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and also God the Son, and has eternally existed as such. The Trinity is an eternal relationship, there never was a time when there was not the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in that relationship. The Son is said to be “eternally begotten of the Father”. The Holy Ghost “eternally proceeds” from the Father and/through the Son. The Son therefore eternally exists as the Son, and there never was a point where He had to be spiritually begotten.
In contrast, the LDS faith teaches that we are all begotten spirit sons and daughters of God the Father and Heavenly Mother. This includes Jesus Christ (known as Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence) and Lucifer/Satan. Jesus was the literal firstborn spirit son of the Father. The Holy Ghost is also a spirit child of the Father and Heavenly Mother. This is a fundamental difference in understanding the nature of Jesus Christ.
Traditional Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and also God the Son, and has eternally existed as such. The Trinity is an eternal relationship, there never was a time when there was not the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in that relationship. The Son is said to be “eternally begotten of the Father”. The Holy Ghost “eternally proceeds” from the Father and/through the Son. The Son therefore eternally exists as the Son, and there never was a point where He had to be spiritually begotten.
In contrast, the LDS faith teaches that we are all begotten spirit sons and daughters of God the Father and Heavenly Mother. This includes Jesus Christ (known as Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence) and Lucifer/Satan. Jesus was the literal firstborn spirit son of the Father. The Holy Ghost is also a spirit child of the Father and Heavenly Mother. This is a fundamental difference in understanding the nature of Jesus Christ.
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iepuras
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You both pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Although, I will say the good family values taught by the LDS church is primarily on the surface. The doctrine of polygamy is still alive and well and women are entirely dependent on their husbands for eternal salvation. Polygamy is not practiced in any meaningful way, but Mormon attitudes toward women have their root in polygamy. A woman is not equal in the marriage covenant in the temple (current LDS, please really listen to both sides of the covenant next time you go and you will see how unequal they are to enable polygamy). She cannot be equal in the marriage covenant if the possibility of additional wives has to be left open. The teaching of girls to become good, subservient wives and mothers starts very young. It didn’t work very well on me, which is why the vast majority of Mormon men never saw me as good wife material.
This doesn’t mean that Mormons do not have good marriages and families. Many of them do despite Mormonism.Mormon family values end when a member of the family decides to leave the LDS church. I know ex Mormons who were completely disowned by their families. I know of too many good marriages that end in divorce simply because one spouse no longer believes and refuses to pretend believing. My situation is not that bad, but my father barely talks to me and I cannot talk to my parents about my faith journey to the Catholic Church. Of course, I also get flack for living a “secret life”.
My parents are primarily maintaining the relationship because of their love for my children. If I was single and childless, I doubt they would talk to me much. It’s rather sad really.
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Miriam1947
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iepuras, that is the saddest part of the LDS church, the way families so believe in Joseph Smith and his teachings that they will shun their children and/or divorce their spouses.
There are a number of ex mormon sites on the web and the stories I read are heartbreaking.
If you are a TBM, then an ex-mormon is an apostate and on the way to hell and has ruined the entire family because now everyone cannot be together in the celestial kingdom.
Which also doesn’t make sense. They are going to be in the celestial kingdom as a god ruling over their own planet and others in the family (males only by the way) will be ruling on their own planet as well with multiple wives and they will be popping out little spirit children to populate their own earths. And women have to be taken into the celestial kingdom by the priest holder. I wonder what happens if their priest holder husband is mad at them. Do Mormon wives then go to the telestial kingdom?
Doesn’t sound like togetherness to me. And if I were a Mormon woman and had to spend eternity pregnant I might get just a bit irritated. Not only that but she will be among many wives. Polygamy is doctrine in their celestial kingdom.
There are a number of ex mormon sites on the web and the stories I read are heartbreaking.
If you are a TBM, then an ex-mormon is an apostate and on the way to hell and has ruined the entire family because now everyone cannot be together in the celestial kingdom.
Which also doesn’t make sense. They are going to be in the celestial kingdom as a god ruling over their own planet and others in the family (males only by the way) will be ruling on their own planet as well with multiple wives and they will be popping out little spirit children to populate their own earths. And women have to be taken into the celestial kingdom by the priest holder. I wonder what happens if their priest holder husband is mad at them. Do Mormon wives then go to the telestial kingdom?
Doesn’t sound like togetherness to me. And if I were a Mormon woman and had to spend eternity pregnant I might get just a bit irritated. Not only that but she will be among many wives. Polygamy is doctrine in their celestial kingdom.
Stephen168
New member
Yes, and to be a Christian you have to know who Christ is; Mormons do not.
A disciple is a follower. Christ taught us who he is and Joseph Smith rejected him. Arius (3rd century) invented the idea that the son was created while Joseph Smith (19th century) invented the idea that the Father and son were created. The Mormon understanding of God is too different to be Christian.
Mormons are not Christians because they don’t baptize as Christ intended. Christ taught that he was God the creator, he was God, the Holy Spirit was God and they are the same. Joseph Smith rejected God as Jesus taught us in the bible.
”I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.(John 6:51-56) After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. (John6:66)
Claiming to be a disciple and actually being a disciple are two different things. The Catholic Church was started by Jesus Christ. He taught the Apostles and they taught us. We are the Christians who get to decide who is a disciple, and who is not. “There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all” (Ephesians 4:4-6)
Stephen168
New member
And when a family member becomes a Mormon. Their relatives can not attend weddings, etc.
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