Are Mormons Christians

[mtolympus]

You are reading these passages as though Jesus is not God.

Jesus is God, but he always submits to the Father. They are not equal according to the Christian scriptures:

“I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

Jesus received his authority from the Father:

** “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.” (John 5:26-27)**

The Son proceeds from the Father. If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father, not because Jesus is an emissary, because Jesus is God. The Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. One God, not three Gods with an erroneous idea that is Jesus a filtering go between. Delegated a task because the Father is too busy or can’t be bothered.

After the fall of Adam and before the atonement of Jesus Christ, no man was worthy to be in the presence of the Father. If Jesus were not God He could not be an emissary or mediator between God and man. Jesus is our advocate with the Father:

**“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” **(1 John 2:1-2)

Jesus is who has reconciled us to the Father, the whole reason that the baptized can call the Father, Father. This does not remove the Father as “God of this world”, as you put it. There is One God, not three, or three thousand or unnumbered. ONE.

We also believe that three persons can be One God:

"And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end." (Mormon 7:7)

Though we will never be greater than they, our ultimate goal is to be one with Jesus and the Father: “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20)

 

[mtolympus]

If your spouse tells you to do a load of laundry, do they have to specifically tell you to use laundry soap?

Even though I am a Mormon, I only have one spouse.

 

[mtolympus]

All organizations need money to do their work. Whether the money comes from donations or proceeds from owning property, the net result is that there are more resources for the organization to do its work.

I don’t see anything wrong with a religious organization owning a shopping mall. If it results in a positive cash flow, that is the main justification.

The LDS church is the owner of the City Creek Mall in Salt Lake City, but a Michigan company runs the business. The main justification for building a Mall across the street from Temple Square is to keep that area of SLC from deteriorating into a slum. Rather than requesting government substidies, the LDS Church did it themselves.

 

[twopekinguys]

All organizations need money to do their work. Whether the money comes from donations or proceeds from owning property, the net result is that there are more resources for the organization to do its work.

I don’t see anything wrong with a religious organization owning a shopping mall. If it results in a positive cash flow, that is the main justification.

You realize that the mall you are speaking of cost approx. 1.5 BILLION dollars right?

You also realize that this isn’t the only huge money operation the lds church is involved in right?

 

[nmgauss]

You realize that the mall you are speaking of cost approx. 1.5 BILLION dollars right?

You also realize that this isn’t the only huge money operation the lds church is involved in right?

What is your point? If LDS takes out a mortgage on a piece of property, are they committing a sin? If it turns out that this move makes money for the church, is that a sin? Is it unethical? Of course, if there is some privileges that churches have in taxation, then this can reduce revenue to the tax people’s coffers.

The bottom line is if the church benefits, then what is the harm?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Jesus is God, but he always submits to the Father. They are not equal according to the Christian scriptures:

“I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

Jesus received his authority from the Father:

** “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.” (John 5:26-27)**

After the fall of Adam and before the atonement of Jesus Christ, no man was worthy to be in the presence of the Father. If Jesus were not God He could not be an emissary or mediator between God and man. Jesus is our advocate with the Father:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1-2)

We also believe that three persons can be One God:

"And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end." (Mormon 7:7)

Though we will never be greater than they, our ultimate goal is to be one with Jesus and the Father: “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20)

What’s your point?

The Book of Mormon has a modalistic portrayal of God. Smith later took his doctrine of deity to a plurality of Gods. This makes your Book of Mormon quote polytheistic. Poly, does not mean one. Plural does not mean one. You can quote the Bible all day but your understanding is filtered through the errors of Joseph Smith.

 

[nmgauss]

You realize that the mall you are speaking of cost approx. 1.5 BILLION dollars right?

You also realize that this isn’t the only huge money operation the lds church is involved in right?

Time magazine estimated in 1996 that the church’s assets exceeded $30 billion.[1] This figure represents only one side of the balance sheet and does not include current liabilities for maintenance, although the LDS Church incurs virtually no long-term liabilities.[10] After the Time article was published, the church responded that the financial figures in the article were “grossly exaggerated.”[24] Three years later, annual revenues were estimated to be $5 billion, with total assets at $25 to $30 billion.[25] Whatever the actual figure, some estimate that about two-thirds of it is made up of non-income-producing facilities and the land they sit on, including thousands of meetinghouses and 141 temples the church operates worldwide, as well as educational institutions, such as Brigham Young University.[citation needed] The remaining assets include direct investments in for-profit businesses largely managed through Deseret Management Corporation. Although the church is a tax-exempt organization, its for-profit entities generate “unrelated business income” that is subject to federal, state, and local income and other taxes.

The church’s holdings include:
AgReserves Inc. - the largest producer of nuts in the United States (circa. 1997)[1]
Hawaii Reserves, Inc. - Miscellaneous church holdings in Hawaii. When combined with the Polynesian Cultural Center (the leading paid visitor attraction in Hawaii[26]) and Brigham Young University-Hawaii, LDS Church-related entities generated revenue of $260 million for the Hawaii economy in 2005.[27]
Farmland Reserve Inc. - 228,000 acres (923 km²) in Nebraska,;[28] 51,600 acres in Osage County, Oklahoma;[29] and over 312,000 acres (1,260 km²) in Florida (dba Deseret Cattle and Citrus).[30]
Bonneville International Corporation - the 14th largest radio chain in the U.S.[1]
Deseret News - a daily Utah newspaper, second-largest in the state of Utah.[31]
Beneficial Financial Group - An insurance and financial services company with assets of $3.1 billion.[32]

 

[nmgauss]

Given America’s diverse religious landscape, the Catholic Church is hardly unique in taking advantage of the First Amendment to engage in some opaque accounting. It’s simply the largest player in this game. Lawrence Wright’s recent Scientology exposé, Going Clear, reveals egregious exploitation of religious privileges for the personal financial benefit of church leaders. Or consider the case of the Tennessee pastor arrested on money laundering and drug charges only because a local TV news investigation revealed that he was using donations to pay off what amounted to personal debts.

The legal framework that allows for this funny business has been constructed in the name of religious freedom but hardly seems required by that important principle. America has a robust ecology of secular nonprofit groups that manage to abide by fairly stringent accounting and disclosure standards. These help donors know where their money is going and reassure residual claimants that there’s some consistent theory of whose assets are whose. Religion is big business—the Catholic Church the biggest of all—and it deserves to be treated as such in the relevant ways.

The Catholic Church is the largest charitable institution in the world. They are doing Jesus’ work. Don’t chastise them for being creative in deriving funds for their work.

 

[twopekinguys]

What is your point? If LDS takes out a mortgage on a piece of property, are they committing a sin? If it turns out that this move makes money for the church, is that a sin? Is it unethical? Of course, if there is some privileges that churches have in taxation, then this can reduce revenue to the tax people’s coffers.

The bottom line is if the church benefits, then what is the harm?

My point is, they are very money oriented, and I mean VERY.

Did you know the Office of the First Presidency is incorporated. Yep, it is a corporation.

BTW, no mortgage on the mall.

Here is some interesting information for some of the financial holdings of the Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Central Florida.

Just in case you don’t actually read it, I’ll give you the big highlight. the mormon church owns the largest cow/calf ranch in the United States.

What was the name of that song? Money, money, money,

 

[twopekinguys]

Given America’s diverse religious landscape, the Catholic Church is hardly unique in taking advantage of the First Amendment to engage in some opaque accounting. It’s simply the largest player in this game. Lawrence Wright’s recent Scientology exposé, Going Clear, reveals egregious exploitation of religious privileges for the personal financial benefit of church leaders. Or consider the case of the Tennessee pastor arrested on money laundering and drug charges only because a local TV news investigation revealed that he was using donations to pay off what amounted to personal debts.

The legal framework that allows for this funny business has been constructed in the name of religious freedom but hardly seems required by that important principle. America has a robust ecology of secular nonprofit groups that manage to abide by fairly stringent accounting and disclosure standards. These help donors know where their money is going and reassure residual claimants that there’s some consistent theory of whose assets are whose. Religion is big business—the Catholic Church the biggest of all—and it deserves to be treated as such in the relevant ways.

The Catholic Church is the largest charitable institution in the world. They are doing Jesus’ work. Don’t chastise them for being creative in deriving funds for their work.

Do you have sources for what you have stated here?

Who is chastising the Catholic Church?

 

[nmgauss]

My point is, they are very money oriented, and I mean VERY.

Did you know the Office of the First Presidency is incorporated. Yep, it is a corporation.

BTW, no mortgage on the mall.

Here is some interesting information for some of the financial holdings of the Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Central Florida.

Just in case you don’t actually read it, I’ll give you the big highlight. the mormon church owns the largest cow/calf ranch in the United States.

What was the name of that song? Money, money, money,

Is this bad? What is bad is doing nothing with the money. If you spend it on good works, what harm is there? Look at Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. They have earned tens of billions of dollars and have given most of it away.

Of course the accumulation of wealth is the secret to a successful economy. This surplus money is then used for investments in organizations that benefit people.

 

[Porknpie]

My point is, they are very money oriented, and I mean VERY.

Money, money, money,

Two, what happens to a Mormon if they don’t tithe 10%?

PnP

 

[twopekinguys]

Two, what happens to a Mormon if they don’t tithe 10%?

PnP

For one, they aren’t allowed to go to the temple.

Going to the temple is a biggie for mormons. They feel they are doing god’s work by baptizing the dead, etc.

They also do the marriage sealings, so the man can call forth his wife/wifes from the grave.

It also plays a big part in getting to the celestial kingdom where they get to become gods

All mormons have to go through a tithing settlement each year with their bishop, and have to explain why they aren’t giving 10% of their income.

Just a few little tidbits.

 

[twopekinguys]

Is this bad? What is bad is doing nothing with the money. If you spend it on good works, what harm is there? Look at Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. They have earned tens of billions of dollars and have given most of it away.

Of course the accumulation of wealth is the secret to a successful economy. This surplus money is then used for investments in organizations that benefit people.

Comparing Gates and Buffett to the mormon church is comparing apples and oranges.

I guess accumulating all of that money to build a mall makes perfect sense

 

[batman1973]

Comparing Gates and Buffett to the mormon church is comparing apples and oranges.

I guess accumulating all of that money to build a mall makes perfect sense

I see this thread is getting a bit derailed. But, I’m actually going to defend the mormons (Yeah, I know, I’m shocked as well) In regards to the Mormon Church and it’s vast wealth, it does pale in comparison to the Roman Catholic Church. Like the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormons don’t sit on thier money. The Mormon church uses it’s money to build their buildings(all debt free) they also have one of the most impressive welfare systems. This is all paid for from thier coffers. While I understand they don’t need to own a shopping mall, really, what they do with the money is their business.

 

[Stephen168]

Did Jesus exist during the time of Moses? Satan is mentioned in the Torah. Is this the same Satan that Jesus was supposed to have created?

How does your denomination answer those questions?

 

[Stephen168]

The term Christian was originally coined by the people of Antioch to describe the disciples of Jesus.

Yes, and they knew who God was and that he created everything out of nothing. Mormons follow another god and therefore are not Christians.

 

[Stephen168]

All this discussion reminds me that people are consumers and ministers are deliverers of the religion that appeals to their congregations. If a minister chooses text from the Bible or the BOM to support his/her points, and this approach is acceptable to the congregation, the effort will be successful. If the minister attempts to promote concepts that are rejected by the congregation, he/she will know right away, and not to do that again.

If the congregation is gullible and not curious, it may accept anything without the minister citing authority. More intellectual congregations, however, will ask for the foundation of an effort to persuade them to do or believe what is being cast their way.

These days, transcendence to God is what most church-goers want. The noisy southern evangelical services (Holy Rollers) strive to promote this kind of emotional environment. In others, quiet contemplative environments (as in the Society of Friends) seems to appeal to the congregations.

And these groups may or may not be Christian

 

[Stephen168]

Missionary work uses various tactics to attract adherents. So, what’s wrong with the lavish Crystal Cathedral? What’s wrong with the elaborate St. Peter’s Basilica? The moving out of the lavish pope’s residence into less manorial digs by Pope Francis is a PR tactic.

If the Catholic Church claims to follow the teachings of Christ, they are being hypocrites when showing the princely attire of the cardinals.

What is your point? If LDS takes out a mortgage on a piece of property, are they committing a sin? If it turns out that this move makes money for the church, is that a sin? Is it unethical? Of course, if there is some privileges that churches have in taxation, then this can reduce revenue to the tax people’s coffers.

The bottom line is if the church benefits, then what is the harm?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Time magazine estimated in 1996 that the church’s assets exceeded $30 billion.[1] This figure represents only one side of the balance sheet and does not include current liabilities for maintenance, although the LDS Church incurs virtually no long-term liabilities.[10] After the Time article was published, the church responded that the financial figures in the article were “grossly exaggerated.”[24] Three years later, annual revenues were estimated to be $5 billion, with total assets at $25 to $30 billion.[25] Whatever the actual figure, some estimate that about two-thirds of it is made up of non-income-producing facilities and the land they sit on, including thousands of meetinghouses and 141 temples the church operates worldwide, as well as educational institutions, such as Brigham Young University.[citation needed] The remaining assets include direct investments in for-profit businesses largely managed through Deseret Management Corporation. Although the church is a tax-exempt organization, its for-profit entities generate “unrelated business income” that is subject to federal, state, and local income and other taxes.

The church’s holdings include:
AgReserves Inc. - the largest producer of nuts in the United States (circa. 1997)[1]
Hawaii Reserves, Inc. - Miscellaneous church holdings in Hawaii. When combined with the Polynesian Cultural Center (the leading paid visitor attraction in Hawaii[26]) and Brigham Young University-Hawaii, LDS Church-related entities generated revenue of $260 million for the Hawaii economy in 2005.[27]
Farmland Reserve Inc. - 228,000 acres (923 km²) in Nebraska,;[28] 51,600 acres in Osage County, Oklahoma;[29] and over 312,000 acres (1,260 km²) in Florida (dba Deseret Cattle and Citrus).[30]
Bonneville International Corporation - the 14th largest radio chain in the U.S.[1]
Deseret News - a daily Utah newspaper, second-largest in the state of Utah.[31]
Beneficial Financial Group - An insurance and financial services company with assets of $3.1 billion.[32]

This makes it all the more disgusting that they will not pay to send a sick man home, a man who served 5 missions for the so called church. Leaving his family to beg others for the money to get him home after all that he’s done for the organization (more than likely at his own expense to boot) is despicable.