are Mormons considered Christians?

[TOmNossor]

Monicathree:

Tom

Me and you posted at exactly the same time, look at the box above by our names

Cool!

Monicathree:

Hey there,

Tom, if it is not too personal, why did you leave? It would be great to have somebody as passionate as you are on this side. I have enjoyed our exchange

Peace

As I have said, I left the Catholic Church for no good reason.

I looked at those who attended church with me and it seemed that they were Christian for about 1 hour per week (and sometimes I was left with the impression that that one hour was too long in the minds of some). The rest of the 167 hours there was little difference between those who were and those who were not. Of course I should have been looking at myself and what I did for the 1 and the 167. I remember seeing the girls who sniffed the mimeograph paper instead of paying attention in Sunday School. Of course surely someone offered me the knowledge of what Transubstantiation was, but I was not paying enough attention to see the beauty of it. I remember being offended when the entire homily was “wasted” by the priest exhorting the congregation to give in the offering and not just a lousy dollar. Of course now I generally want to give 10% which is way more than a lousy dollar.

I was in Idaho shortly after the lousy dollar thing. I met some LDS and thought I saw something different. I met their parents and knew I saw something different. I attended a couple of protestant services. I attended some LDS functions. I met my wife. She and I attended Catholic and LDS services every other week for a few months until I decided to attend the LDS service more frequently. We were married, but not in the Temple because I was not convince I would be a member. I spoke with missionaries for about 1 year and then decided to be baptized.

After about 3-4 years I again noticed that there was someone who attended church for 3 hours a week, but was not too different for the rest of the 165 hours. This someone was ME. I also noticed that there were a number of folks who were different. It was also obvious to me that they had a strength that I did not have nor understand.

I have tried to correct this and have had some success. After a few years of trying to correct this I had some lesser crises of faith. One of these resulted in a long look at the faith I left (during which I realized that I left for no good reason as I explained above). This look was wonderful for me and I believe I grew a lot. But I was not reverted. It has been a long time since I have had new data to assimilate into what I know about the problems of the CoJCoLDS. I have prayed regularly that my BIAS will not prevent me from seeing the truth. And while I no longer pray to know which church is true, I do still pray that God will show me His will and that I may have the strength and courage to make it manifest in my life.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

darcee:

Maybe reading this thread would be helpful to you. I am very well aware of the teachings of the LDS church, I am one of those “jokes” who at one point converted. I was lucky enough to find the truth and get out. But I can guarantee that people like yourself are NOT the ones who helped me see the truth. People who shared the truth with me with love and kindness and without the name calling were.

-D

This is a wonderful comment. I have tried to say this before and it seldom means anything from me. Thank you.
Charity, TOm

 

[iguana27]

briand:

My opinion, Yes they are Christians, often very faithful Christians

Yes they think they are Christians and they think their church is the One True Church and that they have the fullness of the Gospel. Of course there are many groups that think that about themselves.

Christian does not equal good people or good works. It means that you ascribe to certain basic doctrinal beliefs contained in the Creed. One major belief that LDS do not believe is that “Christ died for us men and for our salvation.” For me, that’s the clincher.

Also the Church does not recognize their baptism. That is essentially saying that they are not Christian.

Having said that - I want to make it clear - I do agree that there are some wonderful Mormons who do many good and holy things. They are often people of good will and should be treated with love and charity.

And because you love them, it would be a good thing to introduce them to the real Jesus.

Peace,
Iguana

 

[dutch]

TOm; Darcee,

If you join the Mormon faith and once were catholic, you made a huge error in judgment. And i agree that i shouldn’t judge the person because only God knows what’s in their heart. But i will judge somebody’s actions.

for someone to listen to a wacko with 27 wives is objectively a bad thing to do or the church that was founded by him. Most sane people should know better. it comes down to common sense.

i don’t feel we should sugar coat everything and tell people what they do is ok regardless of the situation. If my friend converted to Mormonism, I would tell him what i thought about it. He might not like it, but the TRUTH can hurt.

Last thing, TOm you seem like a nice guy. I don’t know if you’re still Mormon but ask yourself if a salesman from upstate NY who had 27 wives said he recieved a new gospel from an angel, does it sound like a good idea to believe him?

 

[dutch]

TOm,

I’m not buying anything you say. If you left the Catholic Church for Mormonism, you made a huge mistake. if you can’t see all of there lies and contradictions, you have some serious issues. Also, nobody i know respects Mormonism. They respect the people but not the faith. IT IS A JOKE. No offense, but you really need to get a clue.

 

[TOmNossor]

dutch:

Last thing, TOm you seem like a nice guy. I don’t know if you’re still Mormon but ask yourself if a salesman from upstate NY who had 27 wives said he recieved a new gospel from an angel, does it sound like a good idea to believe him?

…

I’m not buying anything you say. If you left the Catholic Church for Mormonism, you made a huge mistake. if you can’t see all of there lies and contradictions, you have some serious issues. Also, nobody i know respects Mormonism. They respect the people but not the faith. IT IS A JOKE. No offense, but you really need to get a clue.

I assure you I am a nice guy!

I am also still a Mormon.

I have wondered if I would have been a good early LDS. Much of me says, “No way!” I do not know if I could follow some weird guy who claimed to speak with God the Father and God the Son.

All that being said, I did not live in upstate NY. I was born some number greater than 29 years ago. I observed the fruits of Mormonism. I saw answers to questions in the doctrines of Mormonism.

I told the missionaries I wanted to join and I thought Joseph Smith was a good guy, but this whole prophet thing was a little much. They told me I could not join and I should pray some more. I did, but my answer was hardly some burning in the bosom. Answers and the conviction that Joseph Smith definitely was a prophet came a long time latter when I realized that I was continuing to go through the motions of belief and not be converted by belief. I am BIASED, but I have my eyes wide open. I would be shocked if you know more anti-Mormon tidbits than I do.

You are also incorrect when you say that everyone considers Mormonism a joke. Jan Shipps does not. Carl Mosser and Paul Owens do not. And while I do not think his books present accurate history neither does Richard Abanes.

Now let me link you to an article Richard Abanes pointed me too. He spoke highly of the article and commended its LDS authors. It is a good article and you as a Christian who criticizes as you do should read it IMO.

http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/040315respecting.html

Charity, TOm

 

[darcee]

dutch:

TOm; Darcee,

If you join the Mormon faith and once were catholic, you made a huge error in judgment. And i agree that i shouldn’t judge the person because only God knows what’s in their heart. But i will judge somebody’s actions.

for someone to listen to a wacko with 27 wives is objectively a bad thing to do or the church that was founded by him. Most sane people should know better. it comes down to common sense.

i don’t feel we should sugar coat everything and tell people what they do is ok regardless of the situation. If my friend converted to Mormonism, I would tell him what i thought about it. He might not like it, but the TRUTH can hurt.

Last thing, TOm you seem like a nice guy. I don’t know if you’re still Mormon but ask yourself if a salesman from upstate NY who had 27 wives said he recieved a new gospel from an angel, does it sound like a good idea to believe him?

I will try to be nice here, because you seem to be having a hard time reading. I never converted FROM Catholicism to Mormonism. That was only TOm I converted I convert to Mormonism from nothing-in-particular then FROM Mormonism to Catholicism.

Sugar coating is not good, but neither is “vinegar” coating. If you want people to listen to you - you must approach them with kindness and respect. After all… you believe that a virgin gave birth to God and to a lot of people that sounds nuts in the extreme.

I really dislike the whole “I can judge people’s actions” line as an excuse for hateful rude behavior. Especially when coming along with a smug “I am so smart - you are a joke” attitude.

-D

 

[dutch]

Darcee,

I’m surprised you’re from Portland. Great town (Holy Rosary Church is great) but Portland is full of liberal freaks and homosexuals. But maybe i shouldn’t judge them either.

You still made a mistake regardless of what religion you were if you joined the mormon church. Im sure 90% of the world would agree. Why would you join a religion started in NY only 170 yrs ago? They don’t drink caffeine and think the Jews got to the Americas 4k yrs ago!!! There is so many other religions: Buddhism, zoarasterism, Daoism, Shinto, Janisim, Hindu, Judaism,… etc. but you picked one of the worst ones.

I’d rather be Muslim before Mormon. At least it’s from the 6th century (ironically it was also started by a salesman). Just admit you lacked judgment when you joined that church. I’ve lacked good judgment 1000’s of times- no big deal. Just admit it.

You might as well join the Harna Kristnas or whatever.

TOm,

MORMONISM IS RETARTED. I don’t waste my time debating doctrine with them. They are out in left field.

You might as well join the Harna Kristnas or whatever.

 

[dutch]

MORMONS RULE!!

 

[darcee]

Congratulations. I don’t often find myself rolling my eyes so hard they hurt but you have managed to elicit such a response. They way you are flinging about your insults makes me think you are about 14…

-D

 

[dutch]

found some more stuff on crazy joe:

"3. The Pearl Of Great Price, another “translation” of Joseph Smith from Egyptian papyrus which he said was the Book of Abraham. This papyrus he purchased from a touring exhibitor of Egyptian artifacts. Truth: Dr Charles Crane, author, college professor, and expert on Mormon archaeology, said “Joseph Smith did not get right even one word in this whole translation. In fact he took one little letter that looks like a backwards “e” and translated it into 76 words.” (The God Makers video). Dr Richard Phales said "…the Book of Abraham. That manuscript disappeared until 1967. It has now resurfaced. Several famous egyptologists have now looked at it, translated it, and found that it doesn’t have anything to do with the time of Abraham at all. " (The God Makers video)

1. The Doctrines and Covenants, another of Joseph Smiths main texts. Truth: This book had to be revised to keep from showing 3 prediction/prophecies of Joseph Smith that did not come true as he predicted. This coverup is only one of many by the “Church” to hide the truth from its members. Two years after its first printing as The Book of Commandments in 1833, it underwent 65,000 changes although the first edition was supposedly direct word-for-word revelations from God. (see the notarized photostat copies in Joseph Smith Begins His Work Vol 1 & 2). Section 132 contains the doctrine of polygamy (marrying many women). Interestingly enough, this doctrine wasn’t taught until after it was becoming fairly well known that Joseph Smith was having sexual relations with other church members wives. (The God Makers, Decker & Hunt pp 152-153). He eventually had at least 27 wives, many of which were already married. (Historical Record Vol 6 May 1887)."

Worst religion ever. I’d rather be a Jehovah’s Witness - also started by a salesman

 

[dutch]

Darcy,

Maybe I’ll see you in Portland this summer. I’ll be the straight guy.

 

[darcee]

That isn’t some kind of veiled wacko threat is it??

 

[briand]

dutch:

found some more stuff on crazy joe:

"3. The Pearl Of Great Price, another “translation” of Joseph Smith from Egyptian papyrus which he said was the Book of Abraham. This papyrus he purchased from a touring exhibitor of Egyptian artifacts. Truth: Dr Charles Crane, author, college professor, and expert on Mormon archaeology, said “Joseph Smith did not get right even one word in this whole translation. In fact he took one little letter that looks like a backwards “e” and translated it into 76 words.” (The God Makers video). Dr Richard Phales said "…the Book of Abraham. That manuscript disappeared until 1967. It has now resurfaced. Several famous egyptologists have now looked at it, translated it, and found that it doesn’t have anything to do with the time of Abraham at all. " (The God Makers video)

1. The Doctrines and Covenants, another of Joseph Smiths main texts. Truth: This book had to be revised to keep from showing 3 prediction/prophecies of Joseph Smith that did not come true as he predicted. This coverup is only one of many by the “Church” to hide the truth from its members. Two years after its first printing as The Book of Commandments in 1833, it underwent 65,000 changes although the first edition was supposedly direct word-for-word revelations from God. (see the notarized photostat copies in Joseph Smith Begins His Work Vol 1 & 2). Section 132 contains the doctrine of polygamy (marrying many women). Interestingly enough, this doctrine wasn’t taught until after it was becoming fairly well known that Joseph Smith was having sexual relations with other church members wives. (The God Makers, Decker & Hunt pp 152-153). He eventually had at least 27 wives, many of which were already married. (Historical Record Vol 6 May 1887)."

Worst religion ever. I’d rather be a Jehovah’s Witness - also started by a salesman

My irony meter just broke again.

 

[orozco]

Dutch, don’t be rude with Tom and Darcee. I am learning a lot with their discussions. You made your point. Let them continue.

 

[Stephanos_I]

As pointed out they are #1 Non Trinitarian and #2 deny Christ’s divinity. On all accounts they are non Christian.
They believe in a multiplicity of gods.
They consider themselves Christians but can a skunk call itself a kitty cat?
Stephanos I

 

[jdobbins]

Hi,

I just joined the Forums, and have found this thread very interesting. Thank you, and I hope you don’t mind my jumping in here. We are Catholic, and some of our dearest friends are Mormon. Although they believe they are Christian, I do not believe Mormons are Christian for the following reasons:

To be a Christian you have to do more than include the name of Jesus Christ in your name, although that is the reason the leader of the Mormon Church gave Tom Brokaw while being interviewed during the SLC olympics, and the reason our friends given when asked.

To be Christian one must hold to a belief in who Jesus is and what the apostles taught about Jesus, as revealed to them by Him. Jesus is the Incarnate Word of God, God from all eternity, incarnated as man 2000 years ago to bring us salvation and expiation for our sin through His sacrifical atonement, and to give us the power to become children of God through the gifts of the Spirit He communicates to us through faith and the sacraments. True God and True man. To be a Christian one must also believe there is only one True God, and there are three Persons in One God, s expressed in the Creed. The idea of a multiplicity of gods is inconsistent with the Christian concept of God, but that is what is taught by the Mormon Church.

To be a Christian one accepts that all public revelation died with the last of the 12 apostles, for it is through them that we have what Jesus revealed to us about God and Himself and His mission. To accept that there are other and new revelations is to say, in effect, that there was something important Jesus forgot to reveal to us, which is ludicrous.

Jesus said He founded His Church (His Church, not one He was starting and then leaving to others. It is still His. And Church, not churches) on Peter and gave to Peter and his successors the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and the divine power to forgive or not forgive sin, and the ower to confec tthe Eucharist. He never said He was founding His church on Joseph Smith.

To be a Christian, one must accept what Paul tells us in Galatians, that the only gospel is that taught by them, and if anyone comes to us with another gospel, even if they say it has been given to them by an angel, they are to be rejected. Until very recently, the subtitle of the Book of Mormon said it was another gospel of Jesus Christ. A true Christian would never accept such an additional gospel, especially one so contradictory to the true gospel as taught by the apostles. God never contradicts Himself.

The Mormons themselves have taught and still do teach that there is no reason for the Mormon Church to exist if there was no Great Apostacy, yet there is no evidence whatever for a Great Apostacy. The teachings and doctrine of the Catholic Church have been in place since the time of Christ and the apostles, and has continued to this day. I have read the scriptural passages the Mormons try to use in support of a Great Apostacy, but they do not show anything of the sort. There has never been a Great Apostacy. If so, and using the logic of the Mormon Church, why is there a Mormon Church?

As has already been pointed out, the Joseph Smith papyrus used to come up with the Book of Abraham was a fraud. It was a papyrus he bought, and when they found it recently the Church members were exhalted and said that now we will see the truth of what Joseph Smith did and taught. What they found was that after a group of Egyyptologists examined the papyrus, it was a copy of the ancient Egyptian ceremony of the Book of the Dead. It has nothing to do with Mormonism. A true Christian starting a new Church would not be party to such a fraud.

A true Christian does not adhere to a false gospel. One of the Mormon leaders in SLC, several years ago, decided he would prove once and for all the truth of the Book of Mormon. He went on a Mormon Church financed expedition to prove from archaeological evidence that the BOM was true. To make a long story short, there was not a single shread of physical evidence found where there should have been tons of evidence. He returned empty handed, concluded the BOM was false but stayed in the church anyway so as not to upset his mother. When the grand-daughter of Brigham Young read the evidence she left the Mormon church because she said she refused to live a fraud.

So, I must conclude that Mormons are not Christians, from the perspective of their beliefs about the nature of God, from consideration of the truth of what they teach, and from the fraudulent nature of what they hold to be doctrine.

Jim Dobbins

 

[michaelk]

Jim, I find your response interesting that good friends of yours are mormon. I travel to Utah all of the time & obviously most of my customers are mormon, but we rarely discuss religion although I would like to.

Since they are personal friends, do you discuss religion in detail with them? If so, ( and you sound well versed on the LDS church), have they ever tried to convert you? Have you tried to convert them?

Just curious

 

[Tom_of_Assisi]

4) they don’t drink caffeine or alchohol but abortion is permitted. .

Does the Mormon “church” allow Mormons to get abortions?

Dutch,
Good observations on the citizens of Portland.:tiphat: You must have been there. Although the Grotto is very nice.

 

[Asa_Ben_Judah]

petra:

Are Mormons Christian?

No, Mormons are not Christians for several reasons. To be in God’s grace:

1. 
   *]One should have an accurate understanding of who God is.
   *]One should have an accurate understanding of the problem that sin has created for mankind in general and individuals in particular.
   *]One should have an accurate understanding of God’s remedy for the problem of sin, and
   *]One must willingly and cooperatively appropriate God’s remedy.

1. 
   How uncharitable some people can be when they want to be!
   
   Just because someone has a different interpretation of what scripture teaches about who God is and what his terms for salvation are doesn’t take them out of Fathers love and grace. If some people had their way they would damn their own mothers!
   
   Every human being knows through experience the problems sin has created for mankind and as St. John wrote no one can say they have not sinned without being a liar.
   
   In my opinion if any person who is prepared to stand up and confess Jesus Christ as Lord of Salvation then they are Christians and to hell with all of the babble that deals with the principles of Biblical exegesis, babble that has only served to divide the divine church, which to all intents and purposes is numbered by God alone.
   
   Beloved, we should love one another because God is LOVE!