Are Mormons (LDS) Christians?

[BartBurk]

The Nicene Creed is concerned with truth. Jesus is “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God eternally begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.” Jesus is God. God and Jesus are not two separate “personages” acting with one accord (as Mormons believe). Jesus and God are of the same substance–they are one in being. Jesus is the great “I AM”.

But they are separate persons. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. That has nothing to do with whether or not they have a body. Prior to Christ’s reception of a body they were still separate persons. All the Mormons have to do is quit referring to personages and refer to them as persons? God is one God existing as three persons. That’s hard for me to understand. It’s probably hard for you to understand. Should we have a hard time understanding why the Mormons are so confused about it? And then should we condemn them as non-Christians because they don’t understand it?

I agree the Mormons are heretical in their beliefs. But if they would simply forget the notion that God the Father was once a man and accept the idea the universe was created ex-nihilo it would at least satisfy me. The biggest heresy Mormons commit is not regarding the Trinity. Their biggest heresy is believing that God organized the world from pre-existing matter which He did not create. If they would accept the idea that Father, Son and Holy Ghost existed eternally as God, and that God created everything ex-nihilo, they would go a long way towards reducing the distance between us.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Are Mormons (LDS) Christian? Moreover, if they are, aren’t they Protestants as well?I voted “yes” but only because I think the question is vague. You need to define what you mean when you use the term “christian.” It means different things to different people. LDS members would call themselves “christian” because they are followers of Christ.

But…

Do they have a proper (Orthodox) understanding of Christ? No.
Do they have a proper (Orthodox) understanding of the Trinity? No.
Do they have a valid Christian form of baptism? No.

So, in another sense of the word “christian” they cannot be said to be within the community of orthodox christian belief. (It’s a matter of definitions. Keep in mind that some people say the same thing about Catholics… that we’re not “christian.” )
JimmyB:

In addition, what is the story with the, “Looking Glass Trial"?

I don’t know.
JimmyB:

How do Mormons view Orignal Sin and what happened in the Garden of Eden?

My understanding is they reject the doctrine of original sin, and believe the fall was a necessary process for eternal progression of humanity.
JimmyB:

What is, “Blood Letting?”

Are you referrring to “Blood Atonement?” I believe that doctrine is the teaching that some sins can only be forgiven by the spilling of blood.
JimmyB:

Do all Mormons become “gods” when they die?

No. Only good temple-worthy mormons who have been through the temple ceremony have the possibility of progressing on to divinity.
JimmyB:

What is the fig leaf dance?

I don’t know. I’d love to hear a response to this.
JimmyB:

Why do Mormons baptized dead people and do they belief that that process actually makes those people Mormon?

They do so to give the dead person the opportunity for eternal progression. A living member of the LDS Church undergoes the temple ceremonies for the deceased person … who can then choose to accept or deny the benefits flowing from the ceremony.
JimmyB:

Do Mormons believe in the Holy Trinity?

Not in the same way Catholics do. They believe Jesus is not God, but “a” god, the firstborn of our “Heavenly Father.” They believe the Holy Spirit is a separate created spirit who was never given a body of flesh.
JimmyB:

What do they have to say about Catholicism?

That the Catholic Church is apostate, just as are all other forms of Christianity.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[BartBurk]

Doesn’t matter what their book says, its what they believe.

Most Mormons would claim they believe Jesus is God. Some might refer to him as “a God.” We just need to teach them so they understand what the difference is.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Most Mormons would claim they believe Jesus is God. Some might refer to him as “a God.” We just need to teach them so they understand what the difference is.

I’ve never spoke with one Mormom who professed Jesus is God. But thats good to hear, at least some appantly, are not in total darkness.

 

[BartBurk]

I’ve never spoke with one Mormom who professed Jesus is God. But thats good to hear, at least some appantly, are not in total darkness.

When someone believes that Christ was born of a virgin, atoned for our sins and rose from the dead, it is hard to see how they are in total darkness no matter what other heresies they might hold. I know some people claim that Mormons believe Mary wasn’t a virgin because some Mormons taught that God had physical sex with Mary, but very few Mormons I know actually believe that is the way it happened. They accept the story they hear at Christmas about the miracle of the virgin birth.

 

[rpp]

You are using the terms “being” or “substance” as terms referring to the physical characteristics of God when they are philosophical terms. The Nicene Creed is not concerned with the physical attributes of God the Father.

You are incorrect. God the Father has no physical attributes, therefore to assert that I was referring to them is incorrect. Mormons believe that God the Father has physical attributes. That is not compatible with Christian theology.

You are further incorrect when you claim that “being” or “substance” refer to physical characteristics. They does not.

The word “being” actually appears in the creed. “One in being with the Father”. This phrase has also been translated as “consubstantial with the Father”. "Consubstantial is a word derived from “substance”. Here is the Creed as it is currently translated into English for liturgical use. Not I put this phrase in bold.

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Mormons cannot say this with sincerity.

Here is the Apostles Creed.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth,
And in Jesus Christ His only Son, Our Lord. Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. On the third day, he rose again, He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.
Amen.

 

[rpp]

When someone believes that Christ was born of a virgin, atoned for our sins and rose from the dead, it is hard to see how they are in total darkness no matter what other heresies they might hold. I know some people claim that Mormons believe Mary wasn’t a virgin because some Mormons taught that God had physical sex with Mary, but very few Mormons I know actually believe that is the way it happened. They accept the story they hear at Christmas about the miracle of the virgin birth.

It is not enough.

Moslems believe in the Virgin Birth too. And they certainly do not consider themselves Christians.

Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity. He existed before He was born. He is, as the Nicene Creed states, one in being with the Father. The Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Father and the Son.”

 

[BartBurk]

You are incorrect. God the Father has no physical attributes, therefore to assert that I was referring to them is incorrect. Mormons believe that God the Father has physical attributes. That is not compatible with Christian theology.

You are further incorrect when you claim that “being” or “substance” refer to physical characteristics. They does not.

The word “being” actually appears in the creed. “One in being with the Father”. This phrase has also been translated as “consubstantial with the Father”. "Consubstantial is a word derived from “substance”. Here is the Creed as it is currently translated into English for liturgical use. Not I put this phrase in bold.

This “being” has to do with their eternal existence, not with whether or not they have physical bodies.

 

[BartBurk]

You are incorrect. God the Father has no physical attributes, therefore to assert that I was referring to them is incorrect. Mormons believe that God the Father has physical attributes. That is not compatible with Christian theology.

You are further incorrect when you claim that “being” or “substance” refer to physical characteristics. They does not.

The word “being” actually appears in the creed. “One in being with the Father”. This phrase has also been translated as “consubstantial with the Father”. "Consubstantial is a word derived from “substance”. Here is the Creed as it is currently translated into English for liturgical use. Not I put this phrase in bold.

Mormons cannot say this with sincerity.

Here is the Apostles Creed.

That was my point. I said that “being” has nothing to do with physical characteristics. The term has to do with God’s eternal existence, not with whether or not the individual members of the Godhead have physical bodies. As long as Mormons will admit that Father, Son and Holy Ghost existed eternally as One God in three persons and there were no other Gods, they would be Trinitarian even if they claim the Father has a body. Their Oneness will always be a mystery beyond our understanding.

 

[MelanieAnne]

That was my point. I said that “being” has nothing to do with physical characteristics. The term has to do with God’s eternal existence, not with whether or not the individual members of the Godhead have physical bodies. As long as Mormons will admit that Father, Son and Holy Ghost existed eternally as One God in three persons and there were no other Gods, they would be Trinitarian even if they claim the Father has a body. Their Oneness will always be a mystery beyond our understanding.

I doubt your conclusion. But rather than argue about it, how about getting the Mormons to “admit that Father, Son and Holy Ghost existed eternally as One God in three persons and there were no other Gods” and maybe kick in that God is not an exalted human being and then let’s just see what happens.

 

[BartBurk]

I doubt your conclusion. But rather than argue about it, how about getting the Mormons to “admit that Father, Son and Holy Ghost existed eternally as One God in three persons and there were no other Gods” and maybe kick in that God is not an exalted human being and then let’s just see what happens.

That’s what I would like to see happen. I think they are getting closer to agreeing to that.

I don’t really think it is necessary to debate with Mormons over their theology or whether they are Christian. Their entire reason to be is based on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is so demonstrably false that I usually concentrate on that. Once that fact is established, the Mormons’ disagreements on theology are unimportant.

 

[MelanieAnne]

That’s what I would like to see happen. I think they are getting closer to agreeing to that.

I don’t really think it is necessary to debate with Mormons over their theology or whether they are Christian. Their entire reason to be is based on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is so demonstrably false that I usually concentrate on that. Once that fact is established, the Mormons’ disagreements on theology are unimportant.

I agree that the entire Book of Mormon story is false. There is no evidence that any of the stories contained in that book ever occurred. The entire story about how it was translated is also preposterous, and even many Mormons don’t know the facts about it.

I also submit that the “First Vision” story and many other “Revelations” are false but of course I cannot see into the soul of Joseph Smith and his successor “prophets”.

Unfortunately, I don’t share your optimism that they are getting closer to agreeing to a Trinitarian view of God. I also submit that, were they to suddenly receive a “revelation” to their “prophet” and “admit that Father, Son and Holy Ghost existed eternally as One God in three persons and there were no other Gods” they would still fall short, in the views of mainstream Christianity, for acceptance as one of them.

 

[why_me]

That’s what I would like to see happen. I think they are getting closer to agreeing to that.

I don’t really think it is necessary to debate with Mormons over their theology or whether they are Christian. Their entire reason to be is based on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is so demonstrably false that I usually concentrate on that. Once that fact is established, the Mormons’ disagreements on theology are unimportant.

Whether the book of mormon is true or false is a matter of opinion. But the book of mormon is filled with christ as a central character in it. He is referred to by book of mormon prophets and christ even pays a visit to the new world. Mormons are very much christian maybe not in the catholic way but in their own way, they are christian.

For catholics to imply otherwise would be insulting to mormons and I am sure to god also. He must be very sorrowful with the catholic posters who judge mormons not to be christian, not based on lifestyle since mormons are taught to live by christian values but rather by prejudice and bigotry.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Whether the book of mormon is true or false is a matter of opinion. But the book of mormon is filled with christ as a central character in it. He is referred to by book of mormon prophets and christ even pays a visit to the new world. Mormons are very much christian maybe not in the catholic way but in their own way, they are christian.

It’s falseness is more fact than opinion. Like the Koran, where it may agree with the NT is not relavent because it is in teh NT and where it disagrees it is false.

For catholics to imply otherwise would be insulting to mormons and I am sure to god also. He must be very sorrowful with the catholic posters who judge mormons not to be christian, not based on lifestyle since mormons are taught to live by christian values but rather by prejudice and bigotry.

Do you consider the feelings of Catholics with ‘scripture’ that contradicts the very basis of Christianity? Why should thier views be respected when their views disrespect Catholicism by nature of their belief?

 

[MelanieAnne]

Whether the book of mormon is true or false is a matter of opinion. But the book of mormon is filled with christ as a central character in it. He is referred to by book of mormon prophets and christ even pays a visit to the new world. Mormons are very much christian maybe not in the catholic way but in their own way, they are christian.

For catholics to imply otherwise would be insulting to mormons and I am sure to god also. He must be very sorrowful with the catholic posters who judge mormons not to be christian, not based on lifestyle since mormons are taught to live by christian values but rather by prejudice and bigotry.

Since the Book of Mormon is demonstrably false, it’s hard to reframe the question of its truthfulness as “a matter of opinion”.

Your comments are not facts but speculation. It is equally possible that God is offended and sorrowful at the Mormon perversion of the Christian faith.

I also submit that while it is entirely possible that some Christians classify Mormon as non-Christians due to prejudice and bigotry, it is also true that there are those that make that classification purely on theological grounds and it is erroneous to state that all such opinions have their origins in “prejudice and bigotry”.

A person can have a good opinion of Mormons as individuals but still hold the opinion that the religion is false. Indeed, to say that all opinions that Mormons are non-Christian to be rooted in prejudice and bigotry is itself biased.

 

[BartBurk]

Whether the book of mormon is true or false is a matter of opinion. But the book of mormon is filled with christ as a central character in it. He is referred to by book of mormon prophets and christ even pays a visit to the new world. Mormons are very much christian maybe not in the catholic way but in their own way, they are christian.

For catholics to imply otherwise would be insulting to mormons and I am sure to god also. He must be very sorrowful with the catholic posters who judge mormons not to be christian, not based on lifestyle since mormons are taught to live by christian values but rather by prejudice and bigotry.

Anyone can write a book with Christ as a central figure. But to be true it would at least have to be demonstrated to be in the real world. The various DNA studies are conclusively demonstrating that it is not. The linguistic and archaeological problems with a Hebrew migration had already been well documented. The mtDNA studies came along and confirmed what linguistics and archeaology had already shown. Anyone who says otherwise is simply in denial. The Book of Mormon simply is not credible. Most people rejected the Book of Mormon when it was first published. There has been nothing uncovered since that would reverse the correct instincts of Joseph Smith’s neighbors that his book was a fraud. The only way Mormonism grew was through European missionary work and the promise of a new life in America.

 

[Holly3278]

No, unfortunately Mormons are not Christians as they do not have a correct view of God. They believe in multiple gods. They believe that the Trinity is actually three gods who are united in purpose. That is wrong. The Trinity is one God.

 

[rpp]

That was my point. I said that “being” has nothing to do with physical characteristics. The term has to do with God’s eternal existence, not with whether or not the individual members of the Godhead have physical bodies. As long as Mormons will admit that Father, Son and Holy Ghost existed eternally as One God in three persons and there were no other Gods, they would be Trinitarian even if they claim the Father has a body. Their Oneness will always be a mystery beyond our understanding.

The “even if they claim the Father has a body” completely eliminates the Trinitarian claim. If God the Father, as well as God the Son both have bodies, is cannot be said that they are “one in being” or “consubstantial”.

Mormons do not believe in the Trinity. Furthermore, Mormon theologians do not claim that God is “one in being”.

Mormons are not Christians and they cannot agree with most of what is in the either of the great Creeds of the Catholic Church.

 

[MelanieAnne]

This entire thread begs the question ~ why do Mormons want to be thought of as Christians? The religion was purportedly founded in rejection of Christianity, so why would Mormons ever want to be thought of as somehow being associated with something they reject?

The Jesus Christ they talk about is not the Jesus Christ worshiped in Christian churches. The “Heavenly Father” they pray to is not the God that Christians pray to. These are fundamental differences that set Mormons apart from Christians and that go back to the origins of the Mormon faith.

Once upon a time Mormons wanted nothing to do with Christians and organized their faith accordingly. This is the result.

 

[BartBurk]

The “even if they claim the Father has a body” completely eliminates the Trinitarian claim. If God the Father, as well as God the Son both have bodies, is cannot be said that they are “one in being” or “consubstantial”.

Mormons do not believe in the Trinity. Furthermore, Mormon theologians do not claim that God is “one in being”.

Mormons are not Christians and they cannot agree with most of what is in the either of the great Creeds of the Catholic Church.

I don’t think you understand what consubstantial means. You might want to check out this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consubstantiality

Notice especially this:

Thus, Jesus Christ is said to be consubstantial with the Father in his divinity and consubstantial with “us” in his humanity.

The last time I checked, Christ and I had different bodies, but we are still consubstantial in our humanity. There is nothing which would keep Christ from being consubstantial with the Father’s divinity if the Father had a separate body. The only thing that consubstantial denotes is that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are inherently divine. They have a divine state of being which they have had through all eternity. Christ didn’t progress to his divinity, it his just something he shares with the Father from all eternity. If the Father created a body for himself at the time of creation it doesn’t destroy that inherent divinity which Christ had with the Father from before time began.

Again, I’m not saying I believe the Father has a body. I’m just saying that if Mormons believe the Father has a body it doesn’t have to mean they reject the consubstantiality of Christ with the Father. Right now they reject this consubstantiality, but there is no reason they have to on the basis of their canon.