Are most marriages invalid?

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Xantippe said:
It should not take a decade, and three years is really pushing it.

We often see people on CAF (even in the US) who are around the three year mark.
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As I just mentioned before, I think that is the US and Canada. I know several people in Latin America that are on the 20 year mark.
 
marymary1975 said:
As I just mentioned before, I think that is the US and Canada. I know several people in Latin America that are on the 20 year mark.
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Yeah, that’s what I thought I’d heard on previous threads.

The time lags abroad do help clear up a lot of the mystery of why Americans apply for annulments more often than people outside the US.
 
pianistclare said:
Thanks for posting this. It seems as though we do have more checkout lines in the U.S. 😉
Not trying to be facetious, but I recall posters here on the forums who have asked “Wait…DRE’s are PAID in the U.S.”? In many parishes overseas the only employee is the priest, maybe a part time secretary working one day a week. I would imagine that if the tribunal is located with the Bishop’s office and there is are only couple of priests working it, (along with all the other types of cases that Canon lawyers deal with all the time) it would take forever and a day to get the paperwork read, much less processed.
Recently we had someone who was baptized in Venezuela, in a small mountaintop parish, that had burned down since then. No records. This happens more than one would think, because we Americans have it pretty easy. Need something? Ring them up, no problem, fax things over.
Some parts of the world rely on snail mail and budget of a Dixie cup and a string.
Perhaps this factors in. 🤷
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I think… Not fully sure but I am pretty sure, that for most countries in Latin America the Tribunal is not even within the country. My friend who was in Spain apparently everything went pretty quick because the Tribunal was geographically not that far away. However in Central America for example goes oversear which causes a further delay. And what you say about Venezuela is true. I myself don’t have confirmation records – and I am from the City so you’d think it would be easier. Luckily for me I had dated pictures of my confirmation so my very understanding priest in the US when I got married was OKwith pictures!
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Or that other countries have a significantly lower divorce rate…
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That may also happen in some countries. I think maybe the Philippines falls there. However, in my home country of Panama is exactly the opposite. Panama has a divorce rate to be ashamed of. The divorce rates there for a long time have been extremely high 😊
 
Xantippe said:
So, here’s why tribunal decisions aren’t infallible:
  1. It’s not the pope making the decision.
  2. It’s not ex cathedra.
  3. It doesn’t concern a doctrine.
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Is that why when a USA tribunal decision for the annulment is contested to the Vatican, more than 90% of the USA tribunal decisions are overturned?
Can a tribunal declare an annulment, but the marriage is actually still valid? Perhaps the USA tribunals are too lenient in granting annulments, especially if so many are overturned when appealed to the Vatican?
 
MJJean said:
These people honestly thought that once married in the Church they could do nothing if the marriage failed. They believe their options are to either reconcile (not always possible) or leave the Church and worship with another (similar) faith. No one ever told them they have the right to apply for annulment.
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I don;t see why applying for a marriage annulment is the right thing to do if you have a valid marriage but it failed. Perhaps this is what Cardinal Kasper was talking about when he said that many Catholic marriage annulments are divorces in a dishonest way.
americamagazine.org/content/all-things/cardinal-kasper-some-fear-domino-effect-synod-family
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Or that other countries have a significantly lower divorce rate…
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There is something to that as well…the traditional “family values” are big in other cultures. We Americans have let it slip out of our hands…to a certain extent.
Although, in Mexico, at least, you are married by the State first. And often, that’s all.
 
Tomdstone said:
Is that why when a USA tribunal decision for the annulment is contested to the Vatican, more than 90% of the USA tribunal decisions are overturned?
Can a tribunal declare an annulment, but the marriage is actually still valid? …
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Hello,

That statistic is wrong. As for tribunals being wrong, the panels of Rotal judges have come to different decisions about the same case. It is not an exact science.

Dan
 
Tomdstone said:
Is that why when a USA tribunal decision for the annulment is contested to the Vatican, more than 90% of the USA tribunal decisions are overturned?
Can a tribunal declare an annulment, but the marriage is actually still valid?

Presumably, but it also works the other way around–the tribunal might deny an annulment, even when an annulment was due.

Perhaps the USA tribunals are too lenient in granting annulments, especially if so many are overturned when appealed to the Vatican?
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So, what percentage are appealed?

Do we think that appealed annulments are necessarily going to be representative of annulments as a whole, anymore than annulled marriages are representative of marriages as a whole?

I would not make that bet.
 
dans0622 said:
Hello,

He didn’t say that.

Dan
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I gave the link above: " But take the case of a couple who are ten years married and have children, in the first years they had a happy marriage, but for different reasons the marriage fell apart. This marriage was a reality, and to say it was canonically null and void does not make sense to me. This is an abstract canonical construction. It’s divorce in a Catholic way, in a dishonest way."
 
dans0622 said:
Hello,

That statistic is wrong. …

Dan
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What do you say is the correct statistic?
“The percentage of marriages declared invalid by an American Tribunal but reversed by the Roman Rota. In his book, The Annulment Crisis in American Catholicism, Sociology Professor Robert Vasoli analyzed two studies of marriage cases from America that were reviewed by the Roman Rota over a ten year period in the 1980’s and 1990’s. His analysis reveals what he called a “stunning” 92 percent reversal rate.”
fathersofmercy.com/news/fr-chuck-zmudzinski-annulments/
 
Tomdstone said:
I gave the link above: " But take the case of a couple who are ten years married and have children, in the first years they had a happy marriage, but for different reasons the marriage fell apart. This marriage was a reality, and to say it was canonically null and void does not make sense to me. This is an abstract canonical construction. It’s divorce in a Catholic way, in a dishonest way."
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I don’t know if your quote is doing justice to Cardinal Kasper, but it doesn’t sound anything like what I’ve heard on CAF about the nature of the annulment process.

Does Cardinal Kasper actually have a lot of involvement with marriage tribunals, or is he just shooting from the hip?
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
This paragraph just sits wrong with me.
  1. Those people are/were not serious Catholic who are involved in their faith. Annulments and divorce are common in any parish life now. snip for space
I have literally never heard a homily on marriage, divorce, and/or remarriage in the 18 months I have been attending Mass weekly, a few dailies, and on Holy Days. Not once. Never have I seen anything in the parish bulletin unless it’s a listing for NFP classes (once a year they push it for a couple weeks in the bulletin only)or a listing for a retreat being held for married couples (which seems to happen every 3-6 months). The majority of what I know I learned here and then researched to make sure what i was learning was correct.

Not even in RCIA, which I completed last spring, was premarital sex, marriage, and divorce covered other than in one on one time with our Pastoral Assistant and my Procurator-Advocate. Even that was “Well, you were married and divorced and then remarried. We need you to apply for annulment before you can be received into the Church and you’ll have to have your marriage validated before that can happen.One step at a time and we’ll see how it goes.”

Nominally catholic/cafeteria catholic/not-serious catholic is still catholic. Reverts aren’t uncommon. We see people all the time come here reverting to their faith who have remarried or who never left the faith and want to marry/already have married a divorced person.
  1. You say people only believe there are two options, leave the faith, or reconcile. There is a third. Abstaining. One cannot “get” an annulment because a marriage failed, their either was a marriage, or there was not.snip for space
Of course one cannot “get” an annulment just because their marriage failed. However, the marriage could have been invalid to begin with and people need to know that they have the right to have their marriages investigated by a Tribunal if they divorce for whatever reason.

A marriage did, in fact, exist. It was a legal and social reality. It may or may not have been a spiritual reality, but it did exist.

Many people I know IRL have some serious misconceptions about the Church, marriage, divorce, annulment, and remarriage.

For example, my step-dad is one of 7 children born, 6 of which survived to adulthood (my uncle’s twin died in infancy). None of them knew that they were required to marry in the Church. None of them knew that they could divorce and have the Tribunal investigate their former marriages for validity. All of them were raised catholic and attended catholic schools until they graduated.

Another example is my husbands family. He’s the youngest of 5. They were also raised catholic and have a serious lack of understanding of their faith. Although they know annulments exist, only one married in the Church because the rest either never married or chose destination weddings. Two of them believe that ABC is a matter of conscience and that as long as they are using ABC for good reason it’s a-ok. Both claim a priest told them this.

In both families there are those who left the faith because they didn’t understand it. In fact, out of both families we have a BIL and SIL who attend Mass about twice a month, myself and my husband who attend Mass weekly and my FIL who also attends weekly. Everyone else is either no longer practicing any religion or is involved in another faith tradition due to marriage and divorce issues.
  1. What you are describing sounds like more of a “immigrant” issue within many parishes. I have met many Hispanic people who have misunderstood as you have described. snip for space
    The family members I listed are all people who were born and raised here in the U.S. Believe me, it’s not an immigrant problem. I couldn’t even begin to list the friends and others I have talked to who hold the same misconceptions and those are also folks born and raised here.
Sometimes people make poor choices and the annulment process is not a magic God wand that makes it all better.

I am tired of people demeaning my marriage by demeaning their own. We live in a world where we cannot say how many people are in a marriage, or what sex they are. No more. I am tired of my marriage not being given the honor it deserves.
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I don’t think the annulment process is a “God wand”. I also don’t think that there is anything less than holy about people who seek annulment.

The reality is that a lot of people have marriages that will never resemble yours, assuming you are in a valid catholic marriage, and that has always been true. Long before SSM we had people marrying for convenience and living separate lives, people who agreed to have “open marriages”, people who only wanted to marry temporarily for social reasons or monetary gain, people who married with a permanent intention against children, people who are in polygamous marriages, on and on. None of this is anything new. The difference is that now you are more aware of what’s going on and how widespread the problem is. No matter what others are doing, no one can demean your marriage but you and/or your spouse.
 
Tomdstone said:
Is that why when a USA tribunal decision for the annulment is contested to the Vatican, more than 90% of the USA tribunal decisions are overturned?
Can a tribunal declare an annulment, but the marriage is actually still valid? Perhaps the USA tribunals are too lenient in granting annulments, especially if so many are overturned when appealed to the Vatican?
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Or perhaps people in the US have 1) a serious lack of understanding of the nature of marriage which leads to more invalid marriages and 2) excellent infrastructure meaning people can apply for annulment, more easily gather records and evidence, and have many Tribunals to hear their cases.

Do you understand how a case ends up at the Rota?

First, let’s start at the beginning. To start the annulment process a person has a meeting with their priest and/or Procurator-Advocate. At that meeting, the priest pre-screens and determines if there is even grounds to apply. If the priest or Advocate think the case weak they will turn away the applicant. If they think there is a case, then the Petitioner gathers their evidence, their documents, and fills out the paperwork.

The paperwork is submitted to the Tribunal, who reviews it and decides if there is indeed grounds and enough evidence to support those grounds. If so, the case proceeds. If not, the case is not accepted.

Once the case is accepted and all testimony and evidence is present it is reviewed by a Defender of the Bond, who will make a case for the marriage being valid. The Procurator-Advocate makes a case for the marriage being invalid. The judge reviews the case and determines validity or invalidity. If the marriage is determined to be valid, the case is automatically brought to a stop unless there is an appeal. If the marriage is determined to be invalid, the whole thing is sent to a 2nd Tribunal for review. If the Tribunals do not agree, one saying valid and one saying invalid, the case is kicked to the Rota for a decision.

This means that cases that go to the Rota weren’t that solid to begin with and/or are being hotly contested by one of the former spouses (sometimes for spite, BTW), so it’s not surprising the Rota denies annulments to the cases sent there from the US. It’s basically the last stop appeals court.

And there aren’t that many cases sent to the Rota. In 1986, the common year the 90% stat comes from, there were only 10… that’s right, 10!..cases sent from the US to the Rota. The current number of cases sent to the Rota is between 10 and 20 from the U.S.
Tomdstone said:
I don;t see why applying for a marriage annulment is the right thing to do if you have a valid marriage but it failed. Perhaps this is what Cardinal Kasper was talking about when he said that many Catholic marriage annulments are divorces in a dishonest way.
americamagazine.org/content/all-things/cardinal-kasper-some-fear-domino-effect-synod-family
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I never said the marriage was valid or invalid. I said that people who have had a failed marriage have the right to seek annulment. Seeking an annulment doesn’t mean the marriage will be annulled. It means the marriage will be investigated for validity.
 
MJJean said:

“I have literally never heard a homily on marriage, divorce, and/or remarriage in the 18 months I have been attending Mass weekly, a few dailies, and on Holy Days. Not once. Never have I seen anything in the parish bulletin unless it’s a listing for NFP classes (once a year they push it for a couple weeks in the bulletin only)or a listing for a retreat being held for married couples (which seems to happen every 3-6 months). The majority of what I know I learned here and then researched to make sure what i was learning was correct.”

**Exactly.

Issues of marriage, divorce and remarriage are simply never discussed in great detail during homilies at the average parish.

I feel like our marriage prep was pretty good, but it was mostly about being married. We certainly didn’t talk about divorce and remarriage!
**

"Not even in RCIA, which I completed last spring, was premarital sex, marriage, and divorce covered other than in one on one time with our Pastoral Assistant and my Procurator-Advocate. Even that was “Well, you were married and divorced and then remarried. We need you to apply for annulment before you can be received into the Church and you’ll have to have your marriage validated before that can happen.One step at a time and we’ll see how it goes.”

Nominally catholic/cafeteria catholic/not-serious catholic is still catholic. Reverts aren’t uncommon. We see people all the time come here reverting to their faith who have remarried or who never left the faith and want to marry/already have married a divorced person."

**Exactly. **
 
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