Are most people going to Hell?

[expectthebest]

This is good to have fear… but do not serve God out of fear of going to Hell… but serve God because you love Jesus Christ and want to live for him with all your Heart. If you seek the kingdom of God you will find it. The holy Spirit is our guide. God’s SPirit will empower believers to live for him.

Acts 1:8
Acts 2:1-4

This is why I maintain that a protestant who believes he is saved no matter what does good out of love for Christ. Since there is no fear, there is no other reason. But, Catholics have a much harder time forgetting all punishment since fear of punishment is a reallity for us. I suppose one can love and fear at the same time, but the imature (like children reacting to parental threats of punishment) will generally behave out of fear first, or at least on a nearly equal level as love. Even a very mature adult human is imature in comparison with God. Therefore, the concept of doing something purely out of love with no sense of fear whatsoever, even in the back of ones mind, seems almost impossible.

 

[expectthebest]

Answers:

1. The church does not teach beyond the level that “at death a soul is judged”. It does not actually define “when” death occurs - God knows when it is. So the Church does not actually define the precise criteria of “when” exactly death occurs and what happens during the mysterious moments of transition from life to death. For example if there is respiratory failure and the brain is shutting down and the heart is in arrest - at what point is actual death manifest in God’s eyes rather than in the doctor’s or witnesses eyes? Only God knows. For example we have many cases of bodies being by all outward appearances “dead” for hours or days and then suddenly and miraculously found to be alive against all explanation.

So, to anwer your question - no, not exactly a chance to repent after “death” as you surmise. But there is a mysterious and sublime interval of time when the body is still conjoined with the soul and spiritual life and spiritual death are yet to be declared settled by God’s final judgement. St. Faustina revealed that there is a very brief interval, just a few moments by our reckoning (but perhaps “spiritually long” in supernatural reckoning) where each soul is given a final opportunity to petition God’s Mercy. My understanding in this area is formed entirely from the Divine Mercy devotion and revelation - and it does not contradict in anyway Church teaching. From this and private insight I believe that in this mysterious interval a spiritually dead soul (one in mortal sin) that has never before had a substantial relationship with God while alive on earth is suffering the fatal spiritual consequence of severe pride. There is a real spiritual arrogance that makes it impossible for this soul on its own to say “Mercy Lord!”. Such a soul will thus typically be too spiritually arrogant and distant from any memory of a relationship with God to even imagine to petition God’s mercy on its own. Without an external or supernatural intervention such a mortally wounded soul that has not yet repented before the final death throws have commenced has a very small chance of recollecting any relational memory of God to escape its life long choice of rejecting God through a petition to mercy.

This is where friends and The Church can intervene and petition God to let His Mercy win out over His Justice by placing the undeniable Love of His Son and His Passion before God and the pitiful soul in such a way that God almost can not refuse to grant Mercy. God essentially finds the combined intervention and faith in Jesus’ sway with God so perfectly Just and pleasing to Him that the act of Divine Mercy becomes Justice. It is still up to the soul to respond to God’s saving grace in these final moments. But we have assurances that the prayers and devotion are so compelling that they can’t really fail.

Bottom Line: Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet and hope on God’s Mercy. Better yet - get some Catholic friends and ask them to say these prayers for you and your loved ones. It’s that powerful!

1. A person who has many people who love them enough to pray for them does indeed have a special advantage over someone who does not. This is why Christ told us to pray for our enemies - they need God’s grace in a special way and God is displeased with those who persecute His own. Also know that many Catholics make general intercessions to God on a regular basis (daily - even hourly) and perform special “heroic acts” where we ask God (often through a special favored saint such as Mary) to grant that the grace released from their prayers be given to a soul most able to benefit from or most in need. God is Just and God does not shed his precious grace in a way that is not fair not in a way to be wasted. No prayer is every wasted. Further, God has a special love for those that are all alone in the world (especially widows, orphans, the downtrodden etc.). You can rest assured that Jesus was not kidding when He said “blessed are the poor in spirit for the kingdom of heaven is theirs”.

James

I really appreciate this post and it is very thought provoking. I will take some time to contemplate this.

My understanding in this area is formed entirely from the Divine Mercy devotion and revelation

Could you elaborate a little more on this?

Thanks.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

What about the phylical pain?

I know of two possibilities regarding this.

1# God desires for all people to be healthy and whole, physically comfortable. This is indicated by the fact that in Revelation he says that after the wicked have passed away, pain and sorrow shall all be gone in the new age.

Therefore, since the wicked completely separate themselves from God’s will for them, they inflict suffering on themselves. Consider people who cut themselves or immolate themselves. Was it God’s will that they did that? No, they were separating themselves from God by destroying their bodies. People who smoke also pollute their bodies and destroy them. People do this stuff- don’t ask me why, but they do, and it is not God’s will. It is part of separating oneself from God, and seeing as people in Hell are completely separate from God, it’s logical to suppose they’ll be doing this to themselves there too.

2# The second option I know of about how this works is this. People who separate themselves from God are in one another’s company and the company of the demons. Because they have separated themselves completely from God’s will, they are completely evil. What will people who are all completely evil do to one another when they have only themselves for company? Torture, rape, mutilation, etc. Just like Medieval portraits of hell show demons doing to damned souls.

Either of these explanations is logical to me. They might both be true simultaneously.

Do they make sense to you?

 

[expectthebest]

I know of two possibilities regarding this.

1# God desires for all people to be healthy and whole, physically comfortable. This is indicated by the fact that in Revelation he says that after the wicked have passed away, pain and sorrow shall all be gone in the new age.

Therefore, since the wicked completely separate themselves from God’s will for them, they inflict suffering on themselves. Consider people who cut themselves or immolate themselves. Was it God’s will that they did that? No, they were separating themselves from God by destroying their bodies. People who smoke also pollute their bodies and destroy them. People do this stuff- don’t ask me why, but they do, and it is not God’s will. It is part of separating oneself from God, and seeing as people in Hell are completely separate from God, it’s logical to suppose they’ll be doing this to themselves there too.

2# The second option I know of about how this works is this. People who separate themselves from God are in one another’s company and the company of the demons. Because they have separated themselves completely from God’s will, they are completely evil. What will people who are all completely evil do to one another when they have only themselves for company? Torture, rape, mutilation, etc. Just like Medieval portraits of hell show demons doing to damned souls.

Either of these explanations is logical to me. They might both be true simultaneously.

Do they make sense to you?

Ya, it makes some sense. But I have more questions, as usual.

First, does the Church teach anything of what you have explained? Or does the Church just say it doesn’t know and we are free to wonder about the possiblities?

Second, If a person is in mortal sin, by definition, they are seperated from God. This does not mean, however, that this person is completely evil. This person could still be living a very holy life except for one thing, be it contraception or whatever. I don’t think you could say this person is totally evil even though they are seperated from God.

How then can you say that someone who was damned is necessarily totally evil? True, they are seperated from God, but no more than they were on earth while living in mortal sin.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Ya, it makes some sense. But I have more questions, as usual.

Fine, keep 'em coming .

And by the way, I’d still like to hear your response to my comments from posts 241 and 242 about the fear of God and the love of God.

First, does the Church teach anything of what you have explained? Or does the Church just say it doesn’t know and we are free to wonder about the possiblities?

Pretty much that. The Catechism does teach that separation from God is the chief punishment of Hell, though. That the other punishments are derivations of it seems logical, in view of that teaching and God’s nature.

Second, If a person is in mortal sin, by definition, they are seperated from God. This does not mean, however, that this person is completely evil. This person could still be living a very holy life except for one thing, be it contraception or whatever. I don’t think you could say this person is totally evil even though they are seperated from God.

How then can you say that someone who was damned is necessarily totally evil? True, they are seperated from God, but no more than they were on earth while living in mortal sin.

Earth is a crossroads between heaven and hell. Everyone on Earth is on a journey toward one destination or the other. Someone following Christ devotedly on Earth is on the path to heaven. Someone in a state of mortal sin has chosen to separate himself from God and is therefore on the path to hell, but he’s not in hell yet. No one on Earth who is in a state of mortal sin is completely separated from God. Every such person just traveling, by his own choice, toward that state of being. Here’s the normal Church teaching on the matter:
The Catholic Encyclopedia:

The damned are confirmed in evil; every act of their will is evil and inspired by hatred of God. This is the common teaching of theology; St. Thomas sets it forth in many passages.

 

[upciguy26]

This is why I maintain that a protestant who believes he is saved no matter what does good out of love for Christ. Since there is no fear, there is no other reason. But, Catholics have a much harder time forgetting all punishment since fear of punishment is a reallity for us. I suppose one can love and fear at the same time, but the imature (like children reacting to parental threats of punishment) will generally behave out of fear first, or at least on a nearly equal level as love. Even a very mature adult human is imature in comparison with God. Therefore, the concept of doing something purely out of love with no sense of fear whatsoever, even in the back of ones mind, seems almost impossible.

Only those that believe eternal security could do that. Fear is different though… The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

You can fear the Lord and love him with all your heart. However if you are serving God just because you are afraid to go to hell, thats not really loving Jesus Christ. That is selfish. You can FEAR GOD and Love him at the same time.

 

[milde]

However if you are serving God just because you are afraid to go to hell, thats not really loving Jesus Christ. That is selfish.

The fear of hell that Christianity puts into people is specifically designed to evoke selfish feelings in people. Hell is described as a place you want to avoid so that people will do the things they are told will get them into heaven. You don’t tell people “you better do this or else you’ll burn in hell!” unless you want to evoke a selfish need to avoid that firey place.

 

[expectthebest]

Fine, keep 'em coming .

And by the way, I’d still like to hear your response to my comments from posts 241 and 242 about the fear of God and the love of God.

Pretty much that. The Catechism does teach that separation from God is the chief punishment of Hell, though. That the other punishments are derivations of it seems logical, in view of that teaching and God’s nature.

Earth is a crossroads between heaven and hell. Everyone on Earth is on a journey toward one destination or the other. Someone following Christ devotedly on Earth is on the path to heaven. Someone in a state of mortal sin has chosen to separate himself from God and is therefore on the path to hell, but he’s not in hell yet. No one on Earth who is in a state of mortal sin is completely separated from God. Every such person just traveling, by his own choice, toward that state of being. Here’s the normal Church teaching on the matter:

Dosn’t the Cathechism teach that those in mortal sin are seperated from God? I don’t see where it says not totally seperated.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The fear of hell that Christianity puts into people is specifically designed to evoke selfish feelings in people. Hell is described as a place you want to avoid so that people will do the things they are told will get them into heaven. You don’t tell people “you better do this or else you’ll burn in hell!” unless you want to evoke a selfish need to avoid that firey place.

Was speculation and unfounded conjecture designed by people who wanted to break the peace of those selfish individuals who are happy praying for people to turn from sin and attain heaven?

Evidence please.

James

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Dosn’t the Cathechism teach that those in mortal sin are seperated from God? I don’t see where it says not totally seperated.

It does say they are separated, but doesn’t say completely separated. In fact, I don’t think you’ll find any Catholic theologians who teach that a soul in mortal sin is completely separated from God. Complete separation means that they have no love in them whatsoever, because God is Love and everyone who acts in a loving way is to some extent (however small) still unified with God’s nature.

The Catechism says what I said, that mortal sin turns people toward Hell (not that it puts people completely into Hell, which is complete separation from God):

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

Mortal sin also, according to the Catechism, can be repented of:

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

If a mortal sinner has the possibility of repentance, his sin, while (as the Catechism says) turning him toward Hell (defined in the Catechism as complete separation from God), the fact that he still has the possibility of repentance means he is not completely separate from God. To have the possibility of repentance, you have to have some goodness in you, for goodness is necessary for repentance to be a possibility (as repentance is a good act). If you have some goodness in you, you are not completely separate from God.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Dosn’t the Cathechism teach that those in mortal sin are seperated from God? I don’t see where it says not totally seperated.

Yes - but it also teaches that while there is life, through conscience one can recognize the depravity caused by grave sin and be open to universal salvific grace necessary for repentance and restoration.

1781 Conscience enables one to assume responsibility for the acts performed. If man commits evil, the just judgment of conscience can remain within him as the witness to the universal truth of the good, at the same time as the evil of his particular choice. The verdict of the judgment of conscience remains a pledge of hope and mercy. In attesting to the fault committed, it calls to mind the forgiveness that must be asked, the good that must still be practiced, and the virtue that must be constantly cultivated with the grace of God:

We shall . . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

James

 

[expectthebest]

It does say they are separated, but doesn’t say completely separated. In fact, I don’t think you’ll find any Catholic theologians who teach that a soul in mortal sin is completely separated from God. Complete separation means that they have no love in them whatsoever, because God is Love and everyone who acts in a loving way is to some extent (however small) still unified with God’s nature.

Ok. Then if a person is in mortal sin on earth but still may have some good in them, how can they automatically have no good in them when the die? If a soul has good in life, must it not have good in death?

 

[goofyjim]

Will we please cease? We don’t know where most people are going. Only God knows.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Ok. Then if a person is in mortal sin on earth but still may have some good in them, how can they automatically have no good in them when the die? If a soul has good in life, must it not have good in death?

For a little while, you mean, before their internal condition of wickedness drives it out? Like a kind of Anti-Purgatory? I don’t know.

Suffering on Earth can make bad people worse. Maybe in the afterlife, evil people who chose Hell on Earth have the last goodness in them driven out by the demonic forces they yielded up their souls to. Or maybe their decision to abandon all the remaining good in them takes place in the instant of death, rather than over time.

Those kinds of questions are over my head. We don’t need to know the answer, though, I don’t think. We do know that the damned have, of their own choice, abandoned all goodness. We also know that they make their choice to do this while alive on this Earth, and mortal sin is a purposeful turning of the will toward that destiny. Death brings the damned to the completion of the journey, the end of the road they took of their own choice while alive. It’s their decision.

We don’t need to know (thankfully) all the details of how that twisted self-chosen immersion in darkness occurs.

 

[milde]

Will we please cease? We don’t know where most people are going. Only God knows.

Isn’t that a little comical though? People are certain they can lead the way, but they have no idea if anyone is arriving at the destination. In areas other than religion we select and hire leaders based on the results of their prior efforts.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Isn’t that a little comical though? People are certain they can lead the way, but they have no idea if anyone is arriving at the destination. In areas other than religion we select and hire leaders based on the results of their prior efforts.

You don’t get it do you? We are pilgrims here - banished children of Eve. We were cast out of the garden of Eden. We are no different than the ancient Jews who were slaves to the Egyptians. Can’t you see the general pattern portrayed over thousands of years of revelation in the bible? The entire old testament story prefigures the release from the bondage to sin and our journey through many hardships and trial to get to the promised land. Just as the Jews were slaves to the Egyptians and rescued by God working through Moses to be delivered to the promised land so are Christians being rescued from the bondage and hardships of sin by God through Jesus. Christians are now pilgrims who are journeying through the parting seas (baptism) through the dessert of dependence on God to reach the promised land (heaven). Just as manna came down from heaven in the times of old the bread of life, the living word of God comes down from heaven as manna in Jesus who leaves us the bread of life (Eucharist) to sustain us. Just as act of transgression in the garden (stealing of the forbidden fruit) results in humanity alienating itself from God and poisoning himself Jesus rises on the cross, the tree of life, to provide us the bread of life, the fruit of redemptive salvation as a remedy to that original poison. The command not to partake of the forbidden fruit is replaced with the invitation to partake freely of the curative bread of life so we may have eternal life. It’s a completely integrated message using the living history of real people to make it plain as the nose on your face.

Did the Jewish slaves in Egypt stop to ask Moses “hey, do you know how to get to the promised land”? No, their condition was so debased and so miserable that any credible hope of salvation and deliverance was superior to staying where they were in captivity. The signs of the passover and the plagues were proof that Moses had divine promises. Jesus died on the celebration of the passover and rose after 3 days as a sign that he was the new leader to deliver us from the bondage of sin. All we have to do is follow Him since he is the only person on the planet who has demonstrated that He has the words of everlasting life.

Or are you one of these conspiracy theorists who think the Jews invented all this and kept an inter-generational conspiracy going for thousands of years?

There is so much evidence for God at work getting humanity back to him all through history that it is impossible to ignore. Here are your options - place your trust in God or place your trust in yourself.

James

 

[Abbadon]

Isn’t that a little comical though? People are certain they can lead the way, but they have no idea if anyone is arriving at the destination. In areas other than religion we select and hire leaders based on the results of their prior efforts.

that is a very good point, awesome one may say.

Also if i may add, if we do not know how many people are in hell how would we know how many are in heaven? Or then by default the right path to heaven? Perhaps by that logic even a heathen who lives a good and wholesome life is admitted into heaven? If you say only god knows who then has the authority to deem actions pro going to heaven or anti? Or does the church have say? If the church can tell us how to live our lives so we can be admitted into heaven then it should be able to tell us who according to it’s commands is going to hell should it not?

Many questions to which i don’t have an answer…

 

[Abbadon]

There is so much evidence for God at work getting humanity back to him all through history that it is impossible to ignore. Here are your options - place your trust in God or place your trust in yourself.

Well i trust my mother, who trusts god, so do i trust god by default? But because my father is bhuddist and i trust him also, as does my mother… errrrr… does it cancel out or because my mother also trusts my father i get -1?

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

My thoughts for what they are worth.

Concerning the fall of Adam and Eve, the Church doctrine is correct. Their fall is our fall, too. We are a community and our community of man gave us a bad start. Concupiscence draws us to choose our own wants above God. That seems to me to be the challenge of the law of the old Covenant: Love God before your wants.

I think the question, “Are most people going to hell?” according to the old law would be yes. With Christ, we have a chance to be washed clean. To Christ, however, is given the judgement. That authority is important. God does things economically, perfectly. Christ judges in the final judgement, because I think the angels lack the capacity to judge, the apostles lack the capacity to judge. It requires I think to judge perfectly, with perfect justice, the infinite wisdom of God and God also fully man is our judge.

All the influences in your life and all the influences on all the generations and then the judgement in love, too. Who else could judge but God? How are justice and mercy brought together? This is the mystery of hell.

It is not in our capacity to answer this question. Our role is much simpler: to love God, love our neighbor and love ourself in that order. Even that simple role is impossible, I believe, for fallen man without constant divine help. That God keeps us all in existence, atheist and theist alike is a testimony to his love.

This problem of hell, of justice and mercy, I see it spoken to directly by Jesus in the NT. He is the very same Jesus Who will be our Judge:

And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?

26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but **with God all things are possible. **

Scripture tells us God is Love; we should strive to cooperate with Him and trust in Him and the divine Mercy He has given us freely when we do not deserve it.

We must trust, because we, ourselves, lack the capacity for perfect judgement and lack the wisdom for mercy so great to understand the infinite holiness that is His Son, Who was allowed to be mocked, beaten, tortured, and crucified for us, while bearing all our sins…

This thread is about no small mystery.

The recourse I have to this concern is to pray the Divine Mercy chaplet every day at 3 pm and remember the Passion of Christ.

"Eternal Father, I offer you the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, of your dearly beloved Son in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.

For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

 

[milde]

You don’t get it do you? Or are you one of these conspiracy theorists who think the Jews invented all this and kept an inter-generational conspiracy going for thousands of years?

See, it’s no different than dirty politics. You present those you don’t agree with as “one of those people” who “just don’t get it” and believe in “conspiracy theories”.

What absolute arrogant **** all this is. I’ve been sold a bunch of garbage since I was 2 years old. You just simply view the world as “us against them” and you conveniently believe that there’s a place called heaven for you and a place called hell for everyone that doesn’t fall in line with your arrogant ****.

There’s simply nothing here of value. People are just as self serving here as anywhere else in the world. You see what you want to see. Your ideas simply don’t stand up to the most basic and valid questions, so you (like most other Christians) lash out like a child.