Are Muslims okay with Muhammed actions?

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this is my point exactly
this is the same things which muslims observing from the life of mohammed (pbuh) . age of his wives have nothing to do with our islam , it isn’t encouraged nor prohibited and we didn’t have to marry 9 yo to become good muslims

can we then grow up and dicuss important issue about relegion of islam , because this issue actually not important in islamic faith to refute it’s teaching

you hate Muslims because they accustomed to doing everything the way Muhammad did it , then ask yourself about the precentage of these muslims whom married 9yo girls , then you will found out that you discuss useless issue
One of the reasons why we make such a big deal about the age of Muhammed’s wife, or at least one of them, and I know this is true for me, is that if we are to look up to someone, we need to have someone to look up to who is perfect.

Muhammed is not perfect. He is a pedophile.

Jesus Christ IS perfect.

And I know that I cannot understand why you would want to try and emulate an imperfect human being such as Muhammed when there is perfect Jesus Christ, who is God.
 
actually , we allready find it okey to marry the girls as long as she reached puberty

may be it’s not suitable in our time , may be it’s not custom in our time
but i’m sure that your god and every god for every religion in the world didn’t prohibit it although it was custom and it was okey and it was legal in all the world and all the religions few centuries ago , though we never heared any priests or any church or any
scholars objected or considered it to be immoral

Prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha was 100% legal and acceptable by all laws and Divine Religions!
proof for me the opposite 😛

you people just trying to make mohammed (pbuh) look bad
so peace be upon who follow the guidence
 
One of the reasons why we make such a big deal about the age of Muhammed’s wife, or at least one of them, and I know this is true for me, is that if we are to look up to someone, we need to have someone to look up to who is perfect.

Muhammed is not perfect. He is a pedophile.
Okay, lets have a look at the psyche of a typical pedophile, and see how much of it fits Muhammad shall we?
Quoted text is taken from Understanding the Pedophile Psyche, courtesy of the Police Federation of England & Wales:

“Low self esteem. Many pedophiles, although by no means all, do not have a great sense of capacity for adopting a sexual demeanor towards adults or those of their own age or older. They feel unhappy and fearful at the prospect of sexual behaviour with adults and hence turn to children due to the fact that they are unable to have the strength of personality to seek adults for sexual demeanor. When considering treatment therefore it is important to establish and develop a higher sense of self-esteem in such individuals.”

As well as being married to Aisha, he was also married to many other women during his life. He wasn’t certainly suffering from low self-esteem. Therefore, this does not apply to Muhammad.

“Lack of impulse control. Many pedophiles find it extremely difficult to deal with the impulsive nature which inclines them towards sexual behaviour to children. They simply cannot control their need for engaging children in sexual practices. They might be said to suffer from an obsessive-compulsive condition. Here again treatment would involve developing better impulse control and of course redirecting the sexual inclinations.”
As has been mentioned before, Muhammad waited for at least two years before consummating the marriage. Therefore, this point of ‘lack of self control’ does not apply to Muhammad. Also, fasting during Ramadan requires abstention from sexual relations. Why would Muhammad practise this if he had no self-control?

“Denial. Many pedophiles deny there is anything wrong with having sexual relations with children and many will in due course paradoxically deny having carried out such practices should they be confronted. It is vital to change the attitudes of such individuals much as in the lack of empathy with their victim.”
Muhammad never once denied having sex with his wife. Also note the use of the term ‘victim’. Aisha could not be described as a victim. Therefore, this does not apply to Muhammad.

“History of previous pedophile activity. Many pedophiles have carried out minor or major acts of pedophile behaviour in the past and this has led to habit as well as the obsessive-compulsive nature of the act towards children. It is vital here to promote alternative habits i.e. in attitudes and demeanor of sexual behaviour with adults.”
Muhammad has no history of pedophile activity whatsoever. Also, as I pointed out, all of Muhammad’s other wives were adult, and there is no evidence of him being obsessed with children. Therefore, this doesn’t apply to Muhammad.

“Poor family relationships - many pedophiles have come from families that are in chaos or are lacking in stability. This has led them to view sexual behaviour with children rather than adults as acceptable especially if this has been practised upon them by a member of the family in the past. Although it is difficult to reverse what has happened in the past through discussion or attitude changes it is vital that insight must be gained by the individual into how his/her pedophile activity originated and was developed through the family dynamics.”
Although he was orphaned at a young age, Muhammad was always very close to all his family members, and advocated that whosoever cuts the bond of kith and kin, he/she would be denied paradise. Therefore, this does not apply to Muhammad.

“Low IQ - there are pedophiles who have low intelligence but by no means all are in this category. Where this is the case appropriate therapeutic efforts must be made to develop understanding of what they are doing wrong and what they must do to change.”
Despite being illiterate, Muhammad had a reputation for being a very bright young boy, an excellent trader, and an extremely wise man. Therefore, this point does not apply to Muhammad.

“Loneliness, depression and relationship needs - this particular trait is associated with low self-esteem and lack of empathy with the victim. Many pedophiles are lonely individuals who live on their own and have found it difficult to establish relationships with adults, especially for sexual purposes. Some suffer from psychological problems and even psychotic illnesses. Here intensive treatment and monitoring is in order.”
Muhammad wasn’t suffering from depression when he married Aisha. Also, low self-esteem, loneliness, and difficulty to establish relations could not be attributed to Muhammad.

“Having been themselves sexually abused - many pedophiles have themselves been sexually abused in the past by adults. They merely imitate what they experienced and continue their activity considering it as appropriate since it was done to them.”
This certainly isn’t true.

I have demonstrated that, despite the fact Muhammad married a nine-year old girl, he could NOT be considered a pedophile.
 
actually , we allready find it okey to marry the girls as long as she reached puberty
Dont you find it even slightly sickening to say to your wife, if you married her so young ‘darling, please stop playing with your dolls and come and have sex with me’?
To me, and most of the other ppl on CAF find this beyond disturbing.
may be it’s not suitable in our time , may be it’s not custom in our time
but i’m sure that your god and every god for every religion in the world didn’t prohibit it although it was custom and it was okey and it was legal in all the world and all the religions few centuries ago , though we never heared any priests or any church or any
scholars objected or considered it to be immoral
Plenty of priests/church figures have objected against childhood marriages. Im not going to speak for other religions, but i know for a fact in the Catholic Church, we do not allow childhood marriage, so saying that it wasnt is a lie.
Prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha was 100% legal and acceptable by all laws and Divine Religions!
proof for me the opposite 😛
According to muhammads laws, not Gods. We do not believe in muhammads laws
you people just trying to make mohammed (pbuh) look bad
so peace be upon who follow the guidence
he did a good job of making himself look bad
 
Okay, lets have a look at the psyche of a typical pedophile, and see how much of it fits Muhammad shall we?

I have demonstrated that, despite the fact Muhammad married a nine-year old girl, he could NOT be considered a pedophile.
paedophile
an adult who is sexually attracted to children

Source

A child stops being a child once they reach their teens, since your prophet married a 6, i repeat 6 year old and had sex with her at 9, this is the age bracket that paedophiles go after, so, judging by her age, he was a paedophile.
You dont need to be a scientist or brain surgeon to work that out. :rolleyes:
 
Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, **confine them to houses until death **do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Honor killing, and other uncivilized practices like stoning, flogging, beheading, slavery etc existed in pre-Islamic Arab pagan society. Mohammed adopted these uncivilized practices and called them Allah’s laws.

If they were merely tribal/cultural practices of the day, ‘honor killing’ would exist among Arabs only. But honor killing happens among the non-Arab Muslims also.
 
Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anything the Qur’an that directly sanctions honor killings.

Anyway, the issue of “legality” has come up in past discussions with other Muslims, and I still do not understand it. It is a completely foreign mindset to me. Perhaps this idea comes out of the fact that the Qur’an set up a legal framework by which Muhammad and his successors could take over most of the East (and great portions of the West, for a time), and successive generations of Muslim thinkers and jurists also put forth a legal framework by which non-Muslims could be kept in subjugation to Muslim-ruled political states. It seems, to the outside observer, that without the force of law Islam would never be any sort of force in the world. When Muslims see the ability of their prophet to unite the Arabs of his time as some sort of evidence of the power and truth of his message, I read that as an admission that the greatest thing he brought to them was a set of laws. Not morality, but law. And so of course, because of this, what is lawful and what is moral has been given the same criteria: Did Muhammad do it? But Muhammad left you nothing in the area of morality that was not first better expressed by the earlier religions. All that was new in his example is what we object to, because we do not believe that God sanctioned such things, because there is in our religion between what God allows and what He wills.

Morality in Islam is a funny thing. Perhaps it is useful to remember the diametrically opposed early histories of Christianity in Islam: Christianity, before its adoption as the religion of the Roman state in the late 300s, was heavily persecuted in all quarters, and then later on became used as a political tool (and hence corrupted) by the power structure, which led to its decline (e.g., there’s not much a Christian can be proud of in some of the midieval goings on in Christian Europe). By contrast, for whatever persecution Muhammad and his believers may have faced early on, it did not last very long, and within his lifetime Muhammad sought and gained control of all of Arabia, control which his successors would extend over the entire Middle East, to varying degrees (the standouts here being, of course, Lebanon and to a lesser extent Syria and Egypt). So, we could say that Christianity defined its morality in opposition to the law of its time, while Islam came into its own while simultaneously exercising its political power as an empire, so there was never any disconnect between the law and the morality. One is simply an adjunct of the other, since for Muslims there not much experience of being divested of power. In fact, their first major defeats are still used as points against the “evilness” of the West in general (e.g., the Crusades, the reconquista), as though Islam was never actually meant to be anything other than a political system. To impede Islamic progress in governing the world is to upset the religious order of the world as it is fated to be, according to their own Qur’an and Hadith!

Now…who will be the first to tell me that I am being unfair and that Islam is a deeply spiritual religion and I will never understand and all the rest of it?

[33:27] He made you inherit their land, their homes, their money, and lands you had never stepped on. GOD is in full control of all things.

The above seems pretty clear to me. To hell with Islam.
 
Okay, lets have a look at the psyche of a typical pedophile, and see how much of it fits Muhammad shall we?
Quoted text is taken from Understanding the Pedophile Psyche, courtesy of the Police Federation of England & Wales:

“Low self esteem. Many pedophiles, although by no means all, do not have a great sense of capacity for adopting a sexual demeanor towards adults or those of their own age or older. They feel unhappy and fearful at the prospect of sexual behaviour with adults and hence turn to children due to the fact that they are unable to have the strength of personality to seek adults for sexual demeanor. When considering treatment therefore it is important to establish and develop a higher sense of self-esteem in such individuals.”

As well as being married to Aisha, he was also married to many other women during his life. He wasn’t certainly suffering from low self-esteem. Therefore, this does not apply to Muhammad.

“Lack of impulse control. Many pedophiles find it extremely difficult to deal with the impulsive nature which inclines them towards sexual behaviour to children. They simply cannot control their need for engaging children in sexual practices. They might be said to suffer from an obsessive-compulsive condition. Here again treatment would involve developing better impulse control and of course redirecting the sexual inclinations.”
As has been mentioned before, Muhammad waited for at least two years before consummating the marriage. Therefore, this point of ‘lack of self control’ does not apply to Muhammad. Also, fasting during Ramadan requires abstention from sexual relations. Why would Muhammad practise this if he had no self-control?

“Denial. Many pedophiles deny there is anything wrong with having sexual relations with children and many will in due course paradoxically deny having carried out such practices should they be confronted. It is vital to change the attitudes of such individuals much as in the lack of empathy with their victim.”
Muhammad never once denied having sex with his wife. Also note the use of the term ‘victim’. Aisha could not be described as a victim. Therefore, this does not apply to Muhammad.

“History of previous pedophile activity. Many pedophiles have carried out minor or major acts of pedophile behaviour in the past and this has led to habit as well as the obsessive-compulsive nature of the act towards children. It is vital here to promote alternative habits i.e. in attitudes and demeanor of sexual behaviour with adults.”
Muhammad has no history of pedophile activity whatsoever. Also, as I pointed out, all of Muhammad’s other wives were adult, and there is no evidence of him being obsessed with children. Therefore, this doesn’t apply to Muhammad.

“Poor family relationships - many pedophiles have come from families that are in chaos or are lacking in stability. This has led them to view sexual behaviour with children rather than adults as acceptable especially if this has been practised upon them by a member of the family in the past. Although it is difficult to reverse what has happened in the past through discussion or attitude changes it is vital that insight must be gained by the individual into how his/her pedophile activity originated and was developed through the family dynamics.”
Although he was orphaned at a young age, Muhammad was always very close to all his family members, and advocated that whosoever cuts the bond of kith and kin, he/she would be denied paradise. Therefore, this does not apply to Muhammad.

“Low IQ - there are pedophiles who have low intelligence but by no means all are in this category. Where this is the case appropriate therapeutic efforts must be made to develop understanding of what they are doing wrong and what they must do to change.”
Despite being illiterate, Muhammad had a reputation for being a very bright young boy, an excellent trader, and an extremely wise man. Therefore, this point does not apply to Muhammad.

“Loneliness, depression and relationship needs - this particular trait is associated with low self-esteem and lack of empathy with the victim. Many pedophiles are lonely individuals who live on their own and have found it difficult to establish relationships with adults, especially for sexual purposes. Some suffer from psychological problems and even psychotic illnesses. Here intensive treatment and monitoring is in order.”
Muhammad wasn’t suffering from depression when he married Aisha. Also, low self-esteem, loneliness, and difficulty to establish relations could not be attributed to Muhammad.

“Having been themselves sexually abused - many pedophiles have themselves been sexually abused in the past by adults. They merely imitate what they experienced and continue their activity considering it as appropriate since it was done to them.”
This certainly isn’t true.

I have demonstrated that, despite the fact Muhammad married a nine-year old girl, he could NOT be considered a pedophile.
Muhammad could indeed have waited until Aisha was older! Aisha was 9 when he had sex with her. Aisha was a child playing with dolls. That makes Muhammad a paedophile.

Quran Sanctions Paedophilia
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery...www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/child_bride2.jpg

And this is the legacy of Muhammad!
Vickie
 
I have demonstrated that, despite the fact Muhammad married a nine-year old girl, he could NOT be considered a pedophile.
You have demonstrated no such thing. There are a few things in there you cannot prove didn’t happen. First one comes to mind: that Muhammed was not sexually abused as a child.

Regardless, Muhammed, being a human being, is IMPERFECT. And yet, you still wish to emulate imperfection.

The mind boggles. :whacky:
 
~ ***snip ***~

[33:27] He made you inherit their land, their homes, their money, and lands you had never stepped on. GOD is in full control of all things.

The above seems pretty clear to me. To hell with Islam.
Chapter 9:33 Tells like it is… The goal of islam.

It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam),** to make it superior over all religions **even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).
 
Chapter 9:33 Tells like it is… The goal of islam.

It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam),** to make it superior over all religions **even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).
it should be translated as "to make it Clear "
 
Originally Posted by jakasaki
Chapter 9:33 Tells like it is… The goal of islam.
It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).
it should be translated as "to make it Clear "
It’s pretty clear to me - the verse is self explanatory.

I’ve seen enough islamic protesters holding up signs which read… “islam will dominate the world”.
 
okey , people
what i see now is that you just accusing millions of your grand fathers and millions of early christians to be paedophile 👍
 
Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, **confine them to houses until death **do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”
The verse does not say kill them …
Honor killing, and other uncivilized practices like stoning, flogging, beheading, slavery etc existed in pre-Islamic Arab pagan society. Mohammed adopted these uncivilized practices and called them Allah’s laws.
Stoning also existed in Judaism… Is God-sanctioned Mosaic law evil and uncivilized ?
If they were merely tribal/cultural practices of the day, ‘honor killing’ would exist among Arabs only. But honor killing happens among the non-Arab Muslims also.
Do you deny the existence of “honor killing” in non-muslim cultures …
 
okey , people
what i see now is that you just accusing millions of your grand fathers and millions of early christians to be paedophile 👍
where did we do that? You show me in the history of Catholicism we allowed young children to be married.
 
Do you deny the existence of “honor killing” in non-muslim cultures …
There are killings out of jealousy everywhere I suppose… But honour killings… no… Its a Muslim phenomenon. At least in my country,

A few years ago we had a case with a 14 year old Iraqi girl named Sonaj. Her father Ashraf Mohammad, killed her in 2002…
he beat her up and threw her into the harbour where she drowned because she had “become too Danish”.
This is a letter that was confiscated from the father. He wrote to his brother Jabbar and was threatening him if he does not help financially the mother of Sonaj:
“I will kill you like I killed the infidel Sonay. She used to make foulness every day with the infidel pigs… she has made foul things two times infront of me and I killed her with my own hand.”

Two years prior to this the father was jugded for violence against his daughter. He had found a pic in her bag of a Danish boy. She was removed from the home by the authorities, but later it was decided that she could visit her family. This caused her to get killed.

Then there was 26 year old Tyrkish Fadime Sahindal, shot by her own father infront of the eyes of her mother
and sister… Fadime had repeatedly asked the authorities to help her because she was threatened by her family. The reason for her death was that she had a Swedish boyfriend…

Then there was the case with Ghazala who was 18 years old and shoot by her own brother on the open street close to Copenhagen. She had married another man than whom her family had decided for her and thus “dishonoured” them…

And there are more than 300 reported cases YEARLY of violence and killings related to honour among our Muslim population… this is taking place in my very small country. Another crime we never saw before Muslim immigration came is gangrape… we have had severel cases of this within the last 15 years and it just baffles us that people can come with such barbarity.

Now I made a crime report for you… but I dont think anyone will read it. Dont know why i bother…
 
Reading about cases like those (which, by the way GraceDK, you should provide sources for) is confusing to me. I remember when the riots in the mostly Muslim-inhabited French ghettos happened a few years ago, the press made a big deal of how it was MUSLIM youth on a rampage. And so it appeared to be, honestly, but when I asked a French (non-Muslim) friend of mine what he made of it, he said that it could have happened in any community that had been similarly neglected and made to feel that they are not really part of the country, and made a comparison between it and the famous Watts riots of the 1960s in the USA. Fair enough, but I must ask: How is it that anyone is supposed to feel like they are part of a community if, in the process of integrating, they risk their lives or are murdered? I understand that the families do not want their sons and daughters to lose their religion or adopt Western ways that are harmful to their traditional morality, but to the extent that it is possible to be Danish (or Canadian, or Icelandic, or whatever) AND Muslim, I have to say that such killings do much more to harm the image of the community as equal members of the country than any actions of outsiders towards it could do. It seems awful hypocritical to me that some Muslims will complain about not receiving equal treatment in society while at the same time not recognizing that the standard of decency in a non-Islamic country will not be the same as whatever it is they are used to in their own community. That alone is not unequal treatment; that is the society that you are in preserving ITS values (e.g., don’t kill your own kids, ever), just as you are trying to preserve yours by picking your daughter’s husband, forbidding her from dating non-Muslims, etc.

You either want to integrate to the degree that you can without compromising your religious values, or you don’t. For Western societies that don’t view killing as having any religious value in it at all, it is hard to understand how any of this could happen. I suspect that many Muslims would agree, as “honor killings” are not terribly Islamic to begin with.
 
Reading about cases like those (which, by the way GraceDK, you should provide sources for) is confusing to me.
You either want to integrate to the degree that you can without compromising your religious values, or you don’t. For Western societies that don’t view killing as having any religious value in it at all, it is hard to understand how any of this could happen. I suspect that many Muslims would agree, as “honor killings” are not terribly Islamic to begin with.
Yes… I wanted to post sources… there are so many. Problem is they are news stories in our Danish news papers… There are not many Danish speaking people on these fora.
But… anyway:
Ghazala: bt.dk/article/20070227/krimi/70227037/1828/
“Her last words were: Brother, what are you doing!!”
Sonay: jp.dk/indland/krimi/article1382541.ece
Fadime: bt.dk/article/20020724/krimi/107240360/ (she is also mentioned in Wikipedia).

You say that honour killing is not islamic to begin with.
I think thats a problematic statement. I might not change your mind but I have experienced that Muslims have a very different relationship to honour than westerners have. There are two phenomena that will strike you in the face if you get into Muslim culture: the self-victimization and the extreme sensitivity of honour…

This phenomenon is also found in the far east… there its called “loosing face”, and its a serious problem… however, the difference is that in Muslim culture the frustration is acted outwardly and often in violent ways.
 
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