are muslims to be killed if they leave their faith?

[morning_star777]

thanks verisi,in another thread i just gave this reference(just verse number).but now you have posted this verse from quran.so now we hope planten will see that some verse in quran ordered to kill apostates.but i am scared,if he will explain this verse in his own way!

 

[jen_fla]

i have my answer. what i still can’t wrap my brain around is what are our professors teaching about islam in europe and the usa?

how can this (obviously man made) religion/system actually convince people that it is legit?

hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/14/saudia18051.htm

hrw.org/reports/2008/saudiarabia0708/

how come western media doesn’t blast this ideology for all the anti-semitic garbage it teaches? i hope people wake up and speak out against this.

why isn’t this disgusting brainwashing being discussed by the talking heads?! instead we are subjected to celebrity nonsense of who’s sleeping with whom.

nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/02/12/2008-02-12_on_gaza_tv_hamas_bunny_brainwashes_kids_-1.html

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Muslims gonna say something like this: it is only applied during the time of war. If you convert and betray your faith in order to aid your enemy, you deserve to die. I think it’s ludicrous.

So it is true, for a Muslim to lie about his faith to his enemies; So if a Muslim denies his faith inorder to infiltrate his enemies camp, Islam allows him safety from apostacy in the time of war? Yet if a Muslim wants to leave Islam to practice another faith, the Muslim is to be killed by another Muslim? Muslims have been known in history to infiltrate the Catholic priesthood.

Who is to say then, that; what if one of our own political leaders used to be Muslim, and claims never to have been a Muslim, and is now a Christian, seeks the highest office of a country never to be detected because Islam excuses his apostacy inorder to enter Islam’s extremist enemies camp. On a another scenario, what if the x Muslim now Christian reaches the highest office, to be assasinated by a Muslim for being apostate? In either case can a Muslim be trusted?

 

[jen_fla]

thanks verisimilitude for providing planten with quran quote. would it be rude if we had an emoticon that went “snap!”? …probably.

but now we are back to more silence from this important question.

has anyone taken a course on islam? is the concept of death for apostasy even brought up? i am sure that many dissenters were only imprisoned, fined, deported or flogged, but that doesn’t change what mohammed taught.

makes sense this would never be mentioned while trying to convert someone to this religion.

sister amy, i would love to hear from you on this topic! i can honestly say i am learning much from you and find your responses earnest and fascinating.

 

[Linda_Marie]

i was waiting for some of our regular muslim posters to respond to this, but i guess when this topic is brought up, you get silence. thank you sam for your information. that was my next question if saudi arabia actually had public executions.

Yes, it is true, Saudi Arabia has public executions, usually by beheading. There used to be a film clip on MEMRI which was of a tv interview with a headsman as he discussed his ‘craft’ and displayed his swords and techniques. It might still be there, but it would be several years old by now.

Another punishment which is public is be-handing for theft.

My roommate in high school personally witnessed one of these. She was around 12 when her father took her into the nearest Arab town with him. He parked in the town square and told her to remain in the vehicle while he went into the shop.

While she was sitting there, she heard a crowd approach, dragging a man who was yelling and screaming. There was a platform in the middle of the square. They dragged him onto the platform, placed his right arm on the block and, as she looked on in horror, chopped off his hand with a sword. Then they dipped his stump in boiling tar to cauterize the wound so he wouldn’t bleed to death. She said he screamed worse for the tar than for the removal of his hand.

 

[bcm6987]

Apparently being muslim is much like being a crip. Once a member, you must be killed in order to leave. I didn’t realize this. Very interesting two sided forms of thinking, very foreign to me. A muslim can deny his faith in order to spread his faith? What honest, caring, and logical person would fall for that?

 

[jen_fla]

yeah, i have been reading all about saudi arabia and the islamic kingdom. cruel stuff. you know, you learn more about these issues by the responses given than by reading all the articles that back up a loud YES to my original question.

last year 153 men and three women were executed in saudi arabia with this guy being one of them:

africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnL02434180.html

i just don’t understand what is being taught that anyone could willingly convert to such a dictatorship. again, i am sure most muslims are decent, warm people that truly love God and focus on their families, but how can they gloss over such injustices?

i am sure there are some scholars that only focus on the peaceful aspects of the quran, but then to ignore the other violent teachings is to be ignorant or deliberately withholding information to convert by any means.

there has to be someone on this board that took a formal class on islam and can explain how this issue was discussed.

 

[Sam_777]

i am sure most muslims are decent, warm people that truly love God and focus on their families, but how can they gloss over such injustices?

Who told you its injustice!, its indeed what Islam is teaching, read my previous post, Muslims can’t go against what Muhammed is teaching in his hadiths nor they can disobey or question their Muslims Clerics.

i am sure there are some scholars that only focus on the peaceful aspects of the quran, but then to ignore the other violent teachings is to be ignorant or deliberately withholding information to convert by any means.

You mean hide the truth about the violence in Islam, and only showing the peaceful verses, some of them even denying hadiths (like our fellow planten) TO MASK AND SCREEN Muhammed’s sexual, violent, and satanic behaviour.

 

[Booklover]

i have my answer. what i still can’t wrap my brain around is what are our professors teaching about islam in europe and the usa?

how can this (obviously man made) religion/system actually convince people that it is legit?

hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/14/saudia18051.htm

hrw.org/reports/2008/saudiarabia0708/

how come western media doesn’t blast this ideology for all the anti-semitic garbage it teaches? i hope people wake up and speak out against this.

why isn’t this disgusting brainwashing being discussed by the talking heads?! instead we are subjected to celebrity nonsense of who’s sleeping with whom.

nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/02/12/2008-02-12_on_gaza_tv_hamas_bunny_brainwashes_kids_-1.html

We are living in the world of PC. If you say anything uncomplimentary about Islam you’re accused of bashing, of being a hatemonger or an Islamophobe. Charity must prevail at all times even if it means hiding the true nature of Islam and its imperialistic, totalitarian and barbaric intentions towards those who refuse to accept its 7th century cruel and inhuman creed.

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Yes, it is true, Saudi Arabia has public executions, usually by beheading. There used to be a film clip on MEMRI which was of a tv interview with a headsman as he discussed his ‘craft’ and displayed his swords and techniques. It might still be there, but it would be several years old by now.

Another punishment which is public is be-handing for theft.

My roommate in high school personally witnessed one of these. She was around 12 when her father took her into the nearest Arab town with him. He parked in the town square and told her to remain in the vehicle while he went into the shop.

While she was sitting there, she heard a crowd approach, dragging a man who was yelling and screaming. There was a platform in the middle of the square. They dragged him onto the platform, placed his right arm on the block and, as she looked on in horror, chopped off his hand with a sword. Then they dipped his stump in boiling tar to cauterize the wound so he wouldn’t bleed to death. She said he screamed worse for the tar than for the removal of his hand.

And they want the whole world to embrace barbaric rituals such as this!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

We are living in the world of PC. If you say anything uncomplimentary about Islam you’re accused of bashing, of being a hatemonger or an Islamophobe. Charity must prevail at all times even if it means hiding the true nature of Islam and its imperialistic, totalitarian and barbaric intentions towards those who refuse to accept its 7th century cruel and inhuman creed.

Vickie

Here’s an interesting article by Iranian ex-Muslim Amil Imani on the subject.


"I am bombarded by hate and threats by the Allah-fearing fanatics, simply because I speak the truth about Islam. If telling the truth about Islam is Islam bashing, then mea culpa.

Question: Does Islam get a pass because it is a religion? Who says Islam is a religion? Millions do? What is the evidence? The words of masses of brainwashed carriers of the Islamic virus, transmitted to them by their parents, are worthless as evidence. What counts is the irrefutable fact that this creed, claimed to be the one and only religion of Allah, has been and continues to be a source of great suffering for non-Muslims as well as the ignorant masses of Muslims themselves."

He goes on to talk about the treatment of women in Islam and the way that Islam treats non-Muslims.

Vickie

 

[morning_star777]

Dear vickie,thank you for this nice link.i have read this article.marvellouse.best of luck.

 

[morning_star777]

Dear vickie,thank you for this nice link.i have read this article.marvellous.best of luck.

 

[planten]

What is written above is true. Most of the Muslims do not understand their religion. They are going against the teachings of the Quran. They do not know the meaning of the very basic technical words of the Quran such as Momin, Munafiq, Muslim, Kafir etc.

Then they mostly do against the explicit teaching of the Quran about tolerance in religion. They want to kill the apostate (that is the topic here). They want to stone to death any one guilty of adultry. There are so many other things too.

Quran says that any one who believes in Allah (i.e. God) and those who are Jews and those who are christians and people of other faiths, whoever believes in (his) God and the accountability of the next world and DOES (GOOD) BEFITTING DEEDS, He will have no fear of the future nor will he repent anything of the past. (V. 2:62)

But the Muslims do not want to share that blessing with any one of the other faiths unless they become a Muslim. It is true that most of the scholars today, on the authority of some Hadith or on the authority of some very old scholar, they do believe that any Muslim who recants (leaves his religion of Islam) is liable to be killed. But that is not true. I do not believe it and it is not the truth. Nobody can prove it that it is Islamic act.

 

[MugenOne]

It is difficult to quantify with certainty how many apostates from Islam are killed, because such incidents too often go unreported. Paul Marshall, a senior fellow at Freedom House’s Center for Religious Freedom, told me in an interview that he knows of at least a dozen cases in the past year in which apostates were killed for leaving the faith, and estimates that hundreds of apostates are killed every year worldwide.

This problem is magnified by the fact that many apostates, even if not killed, are subject to physical attacks. One prominent example is Yakup Cindilli, a Turkish convert from Islam to Christianity who slipped into a coma in October 2003 after being savagely beaten for distributing New Testaments in his hometown. Marshall estimates that hundreds of Muslim apostates are beaten every year.

Beyond that, most converts out of Islam living in the Muslim world are forced to disguise their new faith because of the persecution they would face at the hands of either the state or their fellow citizens. Marshall believes that thousands of converts from Islam to Christianity are in hiding in Egypt, and that tens of thousands of Muslim apostates throughout the world are concealing their new faith.
This is not some internal Muslim issue about which Westerners should politely hold their tongues. Rather, people are killed every year for following their conscience, and many more beyond that have their fundamental right to religious freedom abridged. Westerners should put aside their hesitations, and should publicly condemn the immoral treatment of Muslim apostates.

 

[MugenOne]

For the vast majority of Muslims residing within the Islamic world, this freedom does not exist. Conversion out of Islam is illegal in at least fourteen countries, and is punishable by death in at least eight. Although official proceedings against Muslim apostates are relatively rare, they do occur. Most recently, Asia News reported on December 17 that Emad Alaabadi, a Saudi Arabian convert to Christianity, had been taken into custody by Saudi authorities.

Even in Muslim states that don’t officially prohibit conversion out of Islam, the legal system is often used against those who leave the faith. In Egypt, for example, the government refuses to issue new identification papers to converts that reflect their new religion. Without new identification papers, converts’ children must be raised Muslim and the converts have to live their lives as though they were still Muslim. Those who attempt to raise their children in their new faith when their papers list their religion as Islam may be charged with blasphemy. Because of this, apostates in Egypt are routinely charged with falsifying documents.

But by far the greatest threat to Muslim apostates comes not from the state, but from former co-religionists who believe that apostasy should be punished and set out to enforce the law themselves.

 

[Verisimilitude]

But that is not true. I do not believe it and it is not the truth. Nobody can prove it that it is Islamic act.

Just in case you missed it on the other page.

What is the Quran telling us here about rejecting Islam?

They wish that you reject faith, as they have rejected (faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #89)

It is the truth of Islam even if you don’t believe it.

 

[inJESUS]

Quran says that any one who believes in Allah (i.e. God) and those who are Jews and those who are christians and people of other faiths, whoever believes in (his) God and the accountability of the next world and DOES (GOOD) BEFITTING DEEDS, He will have no fear of the future nor will he repent anything of the past. (V. 2:62)

 

[jen_fla]

What is written above is true. Most of the Muslims do not understand their religion. They are going against the teachings of the Quran. They do not know the meaning of the very basic technical words of the Quran such as Momin, Munafiq, Muslim, Kafir etc.

Then they mostly do against the explicit teaching of the Quran about tolerance in religion. They want to kill the apostate (that is the topic here). They want to stone to death any one guilty of adultry. There are so many other things too.

Quran says that any one who believes in Allah (i.e. God) and those who are Jews and those who are christians and people of other faiths, whoever believes in (his) God and the accountability of the next world and DOES (GOOD) BEFITTING DEEDS, He will have no fear of the future nor will he repent anything of the past. (V. 2:62)

But the Muslims do not want to share that blessing with any one of the other faiths unless they become a Muslim. It is true that most of the scholars today, on the authority of some Hadith or on the authority of some very old scholar, they do believe that any Muslim who recants (leaves his religion of Islam) is liable to be killed. But that is not true. I do not believe it and it is not the truth. Nobody can prove it that it is Islamic act.

planten, forgive me for asking such a personal question, but were you born into a muslim family or did you learn about it from a liberal university?

i am assuming you are not living under islamic rule.

do they teach in your particular mosque that the hadiths are to be ignored and that it is ok to only focus on the peaceful sections of quran? that can’t be. when Catholics ignore part of our teachings (like no birth control) they know it is on them that they are turning their back and falling short. we would never say that it is OK to pick and chooses which parts we want to follow. we know it is wrong. according to you and sister amy, you seem to be able to pick at the quran like it’s a buffet.

and if that is the norm, then you have an even bigger problem. you set up a system of chaos that only leads to war.

and one last thing, can you read arabic?

 

[exoflare]

For me, it brought to mind this blast from the past:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=148638

ummah dot com eventually took down the actual poll, though. I think it was when they realized so many outsiders were starting to take note, and they didn’t want the bad publicity. As far as we could see, the supporters of executing apostates had a pretty consistent lead while the poll was still up.