are muslims to be killed if they leave their faith?

[exoflare]

Call me skeptical, but I don’t see much reason for God to put out a revelation which essentially tells you, “it’s okay to kill people who are fighting in a war against you.” This is kind of common sense already.

Sister Amy, are you saying that the execution of apostates even in the time of the Caliphate was only specific to wartime?

 

[Lapell]

Execution of those who convert from Islam to another religion is punishable by death in the following countries:

• Saudi Arabia
• Pakistan
• Iran
• Kuwait
• Dubai
• Syria
• Yemen
• Libya
• Sudan

The following countries impose other penalties fro converting from Islam. These include imprisonment, forced reconversion, torture, additional taxes and/or the surrender of their child and the dissolution of the marriage.

• All countries listed above
• Indonesia
• Turkey
• Jordan
• Egypt
• Chad
• Afghanistan (Considering adopting death penalty after American forces depart)
• Iraq

O.K., this seems to leave some other countries also ruled by Islam, for instance:
Tunisia, Morocco, Senegal, Mali, Algeria, …

 

[rpp]

O.K., this seems to leave some other countries also ruled by Islam, for instance:
Tunisia, Morocco, Senegal, Mali, Algeria, …

I did not include those countries because I do not whether or not they have criminal or civil penalties for those who convert from Islam. They may, for all I know. I only posted the countries I was certain about.

 

[dolphinlove]

DiL, please do not judge Islam by the doings of present day muslims. Also, Jesus taught you not to judge otherwise you will be judged. period

Who says im judging? Im going on cold hard facts here. The evidence speaks for itself

 

[jen_fla]

Execution of those who convert from Islam to another religion is punishable by death in the following countries:

• Saudi Arabia
• Pakistan
• Iran
• Kuwait
• Dubai
• Syria
• Yemen
• Libya
• Sudan

The following countries impose other penalties fro converting from Islam. These include imprisonment, forced reconversion, torture, additional taxes and/or the surrender of their child and the dissolution of the marriage.

• All countries listed above
• Indonesia
• Turkey
• Jordan
• Egypt
• Chad
• Afghanistan (Considering adopting death penalty after American forces depart)
• Iraq

excellent post, rpp. and for muslims isn’t the important one to look at saudi arabia? that is the holy land ruled under islam. perhaps the shias would look towards iran as a better model?

planten, would you be willing to go to s arabia and tell the officials that they are wrong to make any law based on hadith bukhari? do you think they would agree with you?

 

[jen_fla]

quotes from Tabari’s History, volume 10.

Abu Bakr’s letter to the apostates.

… So God guided with the truth whoever responded to Him, and the Apostle of God, with His permission, struck whoever turned his back to Him until he came to Islam, willingly or grudgingly.

… I have learned that some of you have turned back from your religion after you had acknowledged Islam and labored in it, out of negligence of God and ignorance of His command, and in compliance with the devil….

… I have sent you someone at the head of an army of the Muhajirun and the Ansar and those who follow (them) in good works. I ordered him not to fight anyone or to kill anyone until he has called him to the cause of God; so that those who respond to him and acknowledge (Him) and renounce (unbelief) and do good works, (my envoy) shall accept him and help him to (do right), but I have ordered him to fight those who deny (Him) for that reason. So he will not spare any one of them he can gain mastery over, (but may) burn them with fire, slaughter them by any means, and take women and children captive; nor shall he accept from anyone anything except Islam.

Another quote:

**Among them were many Christians who had accepted Islam, but when dissension had developed in Islam had said, “By God, our religion (din) from which we have departed is better and more correct than that which these people follow. Their religion does not stop them from shedding blood, terrifying the roads, and seizing properties.” **And they returned to their former religion. Al-Khirrit met them and said to them, "Woe unto you! Do you know the precept (hukm) of ‘Ali regarding any Christian who accepts Islam and then reverts to Christianity? By God he will not hear anything they say, he will not consider any excuse, he will not accept any repentance, and he will not summon them to it. His precept regarding them is immediate cutting off of the head when he gets hold of them. Those of the Banu Najiyah and other who were in that district came to him, and many men joined him.

I was in the army that ‘Ali b. Abi Talib sent against the Banu Najiyah. We came to them and found them split into three groups. Our commander said to one of these groups, “What are you?” and they replied, "We are a Christian people who do not consider any religion to be better than ours, and we hold fast to it. Our commander said to them, “Be off with you (i’tazilu)!” He said to another band, “What are you?” and they said, “We were Christians, but we accepted Islam and we hold fast to our Islam.” He said to them, “Be off with you!” Then he said to the third group, “What are you?” and they said, "We are a people who were Christians. We accepted Islam but we do not think, that any religion is better than our previous one." He said to them, “Accept Islam!” but they refused. He said to his men, "When I rub my head three times, attack them and kill the fighting men and make captive the dependants."

…But there was an **old man **among the, a Christian called al-Rumahis b. Mansur, who said, “By God the only error I have made since attaining reason was abandoning my religion, the religion of truth, for your, the religion of wickedness. No by God, I will not leave my religion and I will not accept yours so long as I live.” Ma’qil brought him forward and cut off his head."

Ma’qil wrote a letter to ‘Ali, the Caliph:

… For anyone who had apostatized, we offered return to Islam or else death. As for the Christians, we made them captive and led them off so that they might be a warning for those of the protected people who come after them not to refuse the jizyah and not to make bold against our religion and community, for the protected people are of little account and lowly in status.

Dealing with apostates (from authentic Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 84):

iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/bukhari/084_sbt.html

i hear those crickets again.

 

[planten]

Dealing with apostates (from authentic Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 84):

iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/bukhari/084_sbt.html

i hear those crickets again.

Again there is such a long writing from the Bukhari (Hadith). It is true that in the of Abubakr, there were apostates. That was a time of war. They were ready to attack madinah. So they had to be fought back and killed. I said that apostate will not be killed in peace time. If there is a war going on and he changes platforms (sides) then he can be killed.

Otherwise all that is given of the Hadith above has no value. It is not allowed to kill any one of any faith people when they convert to another faith.
If such was the case of killing the converts then there will be no preaching. Do you understand?

 

[jen_fla]

Again there is such a long writing from the Bukhari (Hadith). It is true that in the of Abubakr, there were apostates. That was a time of war. They were ready to attack madinah. So they had to be fought back and killed. I said that apostate will not be killed in peace time. If there is a war going on and he changes platforms (sides) then he can be killed.

Otherwise all that is given of the Hadith above has no value. It is not allowed to kill any one of any faith people when they convert to another faith.
If such was the case of killing the converts then there will be no preaching. Do you understand?

ok, if what you say is true, then why is leaving the faith a crime in saudi arabia right now, today? and for argument’s sake, even if the punishment was not death, how can you justify it to still be a crime if there is no compulsion? this is your law that has made these statements, not my opinion. do you understand that just because you do not accept the hadiths that saudi arabia still does? would you be willing to go meet with saudi officials to tell them that they must go by quran only, like you mentioned previously?

from their constitution:

Article 7
Government in Saudi Arabia derives power from the Holy Koran and the Prophet’s tradition.

Article 12
The consolidation of national unity is a duty, and the state will prevent anything that may lead to disunity, sedition and separation.

 

[rpp]

Here is a recent article that is pertinant to this discussion.

Iranians consider Mandatory execution for Apostasy

wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=69158

Iran already executes between 10 and 20 people each year for converting from Islam.

 

[Linda_Marie]

I think these people are pretty awesome. Even in the atmosphere of severe persecution and oppression, they still hear the Word of God and respond.

Let us pray for all the Christians who are willing to die for their faith in these places where it is worth their very lives to believe in Jesus Christ, Our Saviour. May God strengthen them and console them and grant them courage.

May their witness inspire us.

In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Amen

Matthew 10:28 (New International Version)
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

 

[jen_fla]

I think these people are pretty awesome. Even in the atmosphere of severe persecution and oppression, they still hear the Word of God and respond.

Let us pray for all the Christians who are willing to die for their faith in these places where it is worth their very lives to believe in Jesus Christ, Our Saviour. May God strengthen them and console them and grant them courage.

May their witness inspire us.

In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Amen

Matthew 10:28 (New International Version)
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Amen.

 

[jen_fla]

**I’m not totally sure how this hadith in particular relates to your question…
**
The mistaken impression people have is that Islam commands the killing of people who just don’t believe in islam and leave it. In fact that’s not the case–people are killed for what is akin to treason, actually threatening the safety and security of the Muslims.

Something I really hate is when people try to use religion to justify their hatred and their violence.

could you really not see how that particular hadith related to my question? honestly?, because i feel like i’m witnessing a pattern with you and planten. if any nonmuslim says up, you say down… no matter what. here was my original post:

i have read that the hadith (translation of sahih bukhari) is widely recognized to be authentic. please confirm if this is true.

given that this is an authentic translation, how can muslims justify death to those that leave their religion?

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:

Narrated 'Ali:

Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. **So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection." **

death or other punishment (sometimes both) **IS ** the law in sunni-saudi arabia and shia-iran. you can’t deny it anymore. it’s a military force wrapped up in religion. what’s your take on the article link posted a few comments up?

 

[scipio337]

Again there is such a long writing from the Bukhari (Hadith). It is true that in the of Abubakr, there were apostates. That was a time of war. They were ready to attack madinah. So they had to be fought back and killed. I said that apostate will not be killed in peace time. If there is a war going on and he changes platforms (sides) then he can be killed.

Otherwise all that is given of the Hadith above has no value. It is not allowed to kill any one of any faith people when they convert to another faith.
If such was the case of killing the converts then there will be no preaching. Do you understand?

Planten, again, I am grateful to your willingness to dialouge, and your candor regarding your faith. However, you do realize that your interpretation differs from every major Sunni and Shi’a school of jurisprudence, don’t you?

I understand your point, and I realize there is no central authority in most Islamic sects, but isn’t the “death to all sane male apostates” the traditional, and majority opinion?

 

[jen_fla]

and so the discussion ended?

this is a few years old, but still relevant.

amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE23/015/2001/en/dom-MDE230152001en.html

 

[planten]

Planten, again, I am grateful to your willingness to dialouge, and your candor regarding your faith. However, you do realize that your interpretation differs from every major Sunni and Shi’a school of jurisprudence, don’t you?

I understand your point, and I realize there is no central authority in most Islamic sects, but isn’t the “death to all sane male apostates” the traditional, and majority opinion?

** I am not sure about the laws in the countries but it appears to be so, at least, in the minds of the Mullas i.e. so called muslim scholars. They would try to implement the law of death to the apostate. They would even cry hoarse over any case of apostacy as the Jews cried over Jesus to crucify him.**

 

[jen_fla]

** I am not sure about the laws in the countries but it appears to be so, at least, in the minds of the Mullas i.e. so called muslim scholars. They would try to implement the law of death to the apostate. They would even cry hoarse over any case of apostacy as the Jews cried over Jesus to crucify him.**

these “so-called muslim scholars” might have you arrested for calling them such. why would you freely choose to belong to that system? planten, your opinions go against what muslim scholars AND mohammed taught. or perhaps someone thought it was OK to deny you the truth? maybe they felt they could distort facts about islam just to keep you duped and involved.

either way, we have mo’s words from the authentic hadith that contradict what you say.

we have sharia law in saudia arabia and iran that contradict what you say.

muslims living in europe, usa, or australia (and all other countries free from islamic rule) do not get to experience the complete system of islam. only those countries that have fell to the dictatorship rule of islam know what freedoms they have… not much.

and you throw in comments about Jews like this… why? it’s like you can’t defend your position, so you throw out these meaningless distractions. regardless of the numerous things Jews and Catholics agree or disagree with, we don’t have any laws that allow us to persecute each other. **one more time: when we disagree, we use words to discuss our differences.
**
we don’t kill, flog, or extort money from those that we disagree with.

are you starting to see a pattern as to which religion does NOT show mercy?

 

[planten]

**Much has been written on this subject.

1. I do not believe all non-believers in Muhammad are Kafir. The Jews and christians are not kafirs.
2. I do not believe that there is a need for any holy war (Jihad with the sword etc.)
3. I do not believe that any one who changes his religion should be killed. That applies to all faiths, religions.
4. I believe that every religion has a right to practice its faith and to preach it peacefully without abuse. Every religion can preach the good points of its own belief without mentioning the bad points of any other religion.
5. I do not believe that the adulterer should be killed. he/she should get only 100 lashes.
6. I do not believe that any bloody Mahdi will come to help the muslims and get for them some land or country. There is no truth in the news of the bloody Mahdi.

So we can say that the so called Muslims have also lost most of the message of Islam. They are like the old time Jews (of the time of Jesus). They have the book well preserved in words. But they have lost the meaning of the book (Quran). The present day Muslims need a teacher (A messiah) like the Jews needed one.

I feel I should not have to repeat what I have written above.**

 

[morning_star777]

Dear planten,ur posts prove that you are honest and liberal muslim.but what about ur religion islam?please see this thread “hell in islam”,that has been started by another muslim fellow.with the references of Quran&hadith he/she proved different things&also replied one of my post,that all people who reject islam will go to hell forever.see this thread and discuss there if you want.thanks and bless you.

 

[jen_fla]

**Much has been written on this subject.

1. I do not believe all non-believers in Muhammad are Kafir. The Jews and christians are not kafirs.
2. I do not believe that there is a need for any holy war (Jihad with the sword etc.)
3. I do not believe that any one who changes his religion should be killed. That applies to all faiths, religions.
4. I believe that every religion has a right to practice its faith and to preach it peacefully without abuse. Every religion can preach the good points of its own belief without mentioning the bad points of any other religion.
5. I do not believe that the adulterer should be killed. he/she should get only 100 lashes.
6. I do not believe that any bloody Mahdi will come to help the muslims and get for them some land or country. There is no truth in the news of the bloody Mahdi.

So we can say that the so called Muslims have also lost most of the message of Islam. They are like the old time Jews (of the time of Jesus). They have the book well preserved in words. But they have lost the meaning of the book (Quran). The present day Muslims need a teacher (A messiah) like the Jews needed one.

I feel I should not have to repeat what I have written above.**

i am ignorant as to what the bloody mahdi is, but i hear what you believe in. do you think most muslim scholars in islamic republics would agree with your beliefs though?

i know many Christians that honestly believe that God does not care if they have sex outside of marriage. they are fooling themselves, because they don’t want to stop doing what they want to do.

regardless, they still consider themselves Christian because they truly believe Jesus is God, but obviously are picking and choosing parts of the faith that they agree with. they rationalize away the parts that are hard to follow.

if my religion told me that death was the punishment for apostasy and i had a family member or close friend that spoke out against islam, i too would want to build a case that mohammed didn’t really mean what he said.

but regardless he did say:

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according **to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" **

and again here:

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:

Narrated 'Ali:

Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. **So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."**

 

[planten]

I do not go near any Hadith that is not supported by the Quran.

Specially I do not go near any Hadith which is quite the opposite of Quran.