are muslims to be killed if they leave their faith?

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exoflare said:
For me, it brought to mind this blast from the past:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=148638

ummah dot com eventually took down the actual poll, though. I think it was when they realized so many outsiders were starting to take note, and they didn’t want the bad publicity. As far as we could see, the supporters of executing apostates had a pretty consistent lead while the poll was still up.
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thanks for that link, exoflare. i am not surprised what the results of that poll showed. i would have been several weeks ago, but not now. 😦

funny how growing up i always assumed the violence in the middle east was all political. i never connected the dots that the islamic religion is a total system that dictates all aspects of life. unfortunately most people aren’t aware that this system decides that if you question it or commit adultery you are to die as well.

oops, let me clarify that lest our muslim posters will claim that flogging is the penalty for adultery. flogging is the penalty for having sex outside of marriage, drinking and gambling and sometimes homosexuality.

death is the penalty for leaving the faith, committing adultery if you are already married and sometimes homosexuality.

i am sure there are more horrific laws, but learning about those alone is all i need to know about this peaceful religion. and let’s not forget that peaceful mo married a 6 yr old and had sex with her when she was 9.

i read though your comments on the other post and it’s true, the moment you mention this to anyone, you are described as a hatemonger.

unfreakin-believable it is!

now i am trying to find out what our liberal colleges are teaching on the subject. i can only assume these issues are not being brought up due to misinformation, fear of retaliation, PC-minded stupidity (denial) or a combo of all.

i know i have been guilty of the above mentioned. i should have looked into it further 10 yrs ago when one muslim told me he loved his brother, but if he found out he was gay, he would have to kill him. :eek:
 
jen_fla said:
planten, forgive me for asking such a personal question, but were you born into a muslim family or did you learn about it from a liberal university?

i am assuming you are not living under islamic rule.

do they teach in your particular mosque that the hadiths are to be ignored and that it is ok to only focus on the peaceful sections of quran? that can’t be. when Catholics ignore part of our teachings (like no birth control) they know it is on them that they are turning their back and falling short. we would never say that it is OK to pick and chooses which parts we want to follow. we know it is wrong. according to you and sister amy, you seem to be able to pick at the quran like it’s a buffet.

and if that is the norm, then you have an even bigger problem. you set up a system of chaos that only leads to war.

and one last thing, can you read arabic?
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There are many sects in islam as there are thousands of sects in christianity. Try to understand that what I have written is correct. I also admitted that Mulims believe in killing the apostate. I do not know from where they have taken such a thing. When I seriously asked a Muslim about it, he could not bring up anything relaible and he said it was practice of the prophet or he ordered it. But no one could give any direct proof of killing the apostate.

It is against the teaching of the Quran. So how it can be allowed. Of course I can read Arabic.

It is the militant type of Muslims who are preaching about the killing of apostates. They are preaching about Jihad too, i.e. the holy war. I do not believe that there is to be any holy war now. Muslims are not to take up arms for any purpose. If any one is doing bomb blasts then he/she is doing something personal to even some score with non-Muslims.

The teaching of Islam is complete Peace with the peaceful people. No killing of any innocent person. I need not give any lecture now. There is a long list. But my own people do not believe those things. They are bent upon being the superior ones and trying hard to establish some kind of a religious government of there own choice. But they will never succeed.
 
According to the Sheika, there’s no sect in Islam. There’s one Islam. So who is correct and who is not?

Are you sure that Islam is peaceful? Did you see the news coming from southern Philippines yesterday? Some poor Bishop received threat-convert or pay tax. How peaceful is that?
planten said:
There are many sects in islam as there are thousands of sects in christianity. Try to understand that what I have written is correct. I also admitted that Mulims believe in killing the apostate. I do not know from where they have taken such a thing. When I seriously asked a Muslim about it, he could not bring up anything relaible and he said it was practice of the prophet or he ordered it. But no one could give any direct proof of killing the apostate.

It is against the teaching of the Quran. So how it can be allowed. Of course I can read Arabic.

It is the militant type of Muslims who are preaching about the killing of apostates. They are preaching about Jihad too, i.e. the holy war. I do not believe that there is to be any holy war now. Muslims are not to take up arms for any purpose. If any one is doing bomb blasts then he/she is doing something personal to even some score with non-Muslims.

The teaching of Islam is complete Peace with the peaceful people. No killing of any innocent person. I need not give any lecture now. There is a long list. But my own people do not believe those things. They are bent upon being the superior ones and trying hard to establish some kind of a religious government of there own choice. But they will never succeed.
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exoflare said:
For me, it brought to mind this blast from the past:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=148638

ummah dot com eventually took down the actual poll, though. I think it was when they realized so many outsiders were starting to take note, and they didn’t want the bad publicity. As far as we could see, the supporters of executing apostates had a pretty consistent lead while the poll was still up.
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Thanks for telling that they were not unanimous. They were divided in their opinion. So I am one of those who do not believe that any apostate may be killed in peace time.
 
jen_fla said:
planten are you shia?

are you saying that hadith translated by sahih bukhari and sahih muslim are not authentic?

also to throw in here for those like myself just learning… i have gathered that worldwide, sunnis make up 80 - 90% muslim population and shia 20 - 10%. from all that i have read it is widely accepted that sunnis accept the above two hadiths as authentic.
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** I also believe that many Muslims do believe them and even act on them. But it is not allowed to kill any one only on the basis of Hadith. The decision about Haraam and Halaal, and about life and death cannot be left to the Hadith alone. Proof for it should come from the Quran. If there is any Hadith, that will support the decision of the Quran and make the proof stronger.

But there cannot be any Hadith which passes orders about life and death matters on its own without having a backing (or base) in the Quran.

I do not deny that 80% of educated Muslims do believe that apostate should be killed. But please remember that there are not so many educated Muslims now. They are not getting good lessons in the Madrassahs. Where there is teaching about Jihad going on and about killing the disbelievers, what else you can expect? Don’t trust them. They are nothing.**
 
an off topic question for our brother planten,folks i am sorry for that. Dear brother planten may i know where you from?honestly speaking,in my life i never find a liberal muslim like you.please don’t take it as a sarcastic comment.i really like and respect you because you are a reall liberal muslim.if you do not have any problem then please let us know where you from.are you from turky?you know i am from bangladesh.
 
planten said:
** I also believe that many Muslims do believe them and even act on them. But it is not allowed to kill any one only on the basis of Hadith. The decision about Haraam and Halaal, and about life and death cannot be left to the Hadith alone. Proof for it should come from the Quran. If there is any Hadith, that will support the decision of the Quran and make the proof stronger.

But there cannot be any Hadith which passes orders about life and death matters on its own without having a backing (or base) in the Quran.

I do not deny that 80% of educated Muslims do believe that apostate should be killed. But please remember that there are not so many educated Muslims now. They are not getting good lessons in the Madrassahs. Where there is teaching about Jihad going on and about killing the disbelievers, what else you can expect? Don’t trust them. They are nothing.**
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I appreciate your posts, platen, and I wish more Muslims held your views were as open to a dialouge about perceptions in your faith as you are.

Unfortunately, this is the traditional and time honored interpretation of the hadiths. A sane male apostate should be put to death. There is no central authority in Islam to claim it as such, but it is the opinion of all four major Sunni schools of fiqh, and the Ja’fari Madh’hab, which pretty much makes it iron-clad for a majority of Muslims.
 
planten said:
**
I do not deny that 80% of educated Muslims do believe that** apostate should be killed. But please remember that there are not so many educated Muslims now. They are not getting good lessons in the Madrassahs. Where there is teaching about Jihad going on and about killing the disbelievers, what else you can expect? Don’t trust them. They are nothing.
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80%, i repeat 80% of people believe people should be killed… and this is a religion of peace?

Forgive them Father, for they do not know what they do.

Islam is nothing but hate, this just proves it even further.
 
dolphinlove said:
80%, i repeat 80% of people believe people should be killed… and this is a religion of peace?

Forgive them Father, for they do not know what they do.

Islam is nothing but hate, this just proves it even further.
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DiL, please do not judge Islam by the doings of present day muslims. Also, Jesus taught you not to judge otherwise you will be judged. period
 
jen_fla said:
i have read that the hadith (translation of sahih bukhari) is widely recognized to be authentic. please confirm if this is true.

given that this is an authentic translation, how can muslims justify death to those that leave their religion?

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:
Code: 
Narrated 'Ali:

Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. **So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection." **
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I’m not totally sure how this hadith in particular relates to your question…

The mistaken impression people have is that Islam commands the killing of people who just don’t believe in islam and leave it. In fact that’s not the case–people are killed for what is akin to treason, actually threatening the safety and security of the Muslims.

Something I really hate is when people try to use religion to justify their hatred and their violence.
 
Sister_Amy said:
I’m not totally sure how this hadith in particular relates to your question…

The mistaken impression people have is that Islam commands the killing of people who just don’t believe in islam and leave it. In fact that’s not the case–people are killed for what is akin to treason, actually threatening the safety and security of the Muslims.

Something I really hate is when people try to use religion to justify their hatred and their violence.
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Then why do the Hanafi Madh’hab, Maliki Madh’hab, Shafi’i Madh’hab, Hanbali Madh’hab, and Ja’fari Madh’hab all agree that a “sane apostate” should be put to death? The Qu’ran verse 2:217 has been used in support of this view.

Historically, you would be in the vast minority of Islamic jurists if you believe the issue only applies at a time of war.
 
scipio337 said:
Then why do the Hanafi Madh’hab, Maliki Madh’hab, Shafi’i Madh’hab, Hanbali Madh’hab, and Ja’fari Madh’hab all agree that a “sane apostate” should be put to death? The Qu’ran verse 2:217 has been used in support of this view.

Historically, you would be in the vast minority of Islamic jurists if you believe the issue only applies at a time of war.
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You might find this interesting. The Hanafi opinion is actually that if the apostate is a woman then she isn’t to be killed.

Would you like me to explain why? Because a woman wouldn’t fight in the army and be a real threat to the state. It’s an interesting distinction since today there are tons of apostate Muslims but so long as they aren’t attacking Islam I don’t think you’ll find any major scholar today (certainly not any of those whom I follow) that would say that person’s blood was lawful, that would let them be killed. No way.

Because at the time of Muhammad, and also at the times of the Imams, when a person became a Muslim, they basically pledged their allegiance to the khalifa. They don’t do that today. So it’s a very different situation, and a different response.
 
Sister_Amy said:
You might find this interesting. The Hanafi opinion is actually that if the apostate is a woman then she isn’t to be killed.

Would you like me to explain why? Because a woman wouldn’t fight in the army and be a real threat to the state. It’s an interesting distinction since today there are tons of apostate Muslims but so long as they aren’t attacking Islam I don’t think you’ll find any major scholar today (certainly not any of those whom I follow) that would say that person’s blood was lawful, that would let them be killed. No way.

Because at the time of Muhammad, and also at the times of the Imams, when a person became a Muslim, they basically pledged their allegiance to the khalifa. They don’t do that today. So it’s a very different situation, and a different response.
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And then, isn’t her punishment imprisonment?

Maybe you should enlighten these major schools of Islamic jurisprudence that they’re wrong.

I think your reasoning is sound, but believe you to be in the overwhelming minority.
 
Execution of those who convert from Islam to another religion is punishable by death in the following countries:
  • Saudi Arabia
  • Pakistan
  • Iran
  • Kuwait
  • Dubai
  • Syria
  • Yemen
  • Libya
  • Sudan
The following countries impose other penalties fro converting from Islam. These include imprisonment, forced reconversion, torture, additional taxes and/or the surrender of their child and the dissolution of the marriage.
  • All countries listed above
  • Indonesia
  • Turkey
  • Jordan
  • Egypt
  • Chad
  • Afghanistan (Considering adopting death penalty after American forces depart)
  • Iraq
 
quotes from Tabari’s History, volume 10.

Abu Bakr’s letter to the apostates.

… So God guided with the truth whoever responded to Him, and the Apostle of God, with His permission, struck whoever turned his back to Him until he came to Islam, willingly or grudgingly.

… I have learned that some of you have turned back from your religion after you had acknowledged Islam and labored in it, out of negligence of God and ignorance of His command, and in compliance with the devil….

… I have sent you someone at the head of an army of the Muhajirun and the Ansar and those who follow (them) in good works. I ordered him not to fight anyone or to kill anyone until he has called him to the cause of God; so that those who respond to him and acknowledge (Him) and renounce (unbelief) and do good works, (my envoy) shall accept him and help him to (do right), but I have ordered him to fight those who deny (Him) for that reason. So he will not spare any one of them he can gain mastery over, (but may) burn them with fire, slaughter them by any means, and take women and children captive; nor shall he accept from anyone anything except Islam.

Another quote:

**Among them were many Christians who had accepted Islam, but when dissension had developed in Islam had said, “By God, our religion (din) from which we have departed is better and more correct than that which these people follow. Their religion does not stop them from shedding blood, terrifying the roads, and seizing properties.” **And they returned to their former religion. Al-Khirrit met them and said to them, "Woe unto you! Do you know the precept (hukm) of ‘Ali regarding any Christian who accepts Islam and then reverts to Christianity? By God he will not hear anything they say, he will not consider any excuse, he will not accept any repentance, and he will not summon them to it. His precept regarding them is immediate cutting off of the head when he gets hold of them. Those of the Banu Najiyah and other who were in that district came to him, and many men joined him.

I was in the army that ‘Ali b. Abi Talib sent against the Banu Najiyah. We came to them and found them split into three groups. Our commander said to one of these groups, “What are you?” and they replied, "We are a Christian people who do not consider any religion to be better than ours, and we hold fast to it. Our commander said to them, “Be off with you (i’tazilu)!” He said to another band, “What are you?” and they said, “We were Christians, but we accepted Islam and we hold fast to our Islam.” He said to them, “Be off with you!” Then he said to the third group, “What are you?” and they said, "We are a people who were Christians. We accepted Islam but we do not think, that any religion is better than our previous one." He said to them, “Accept Islam!” but they refused. He said to his men, "When I rub my head three times, attack them and kill the fighting men and make captive the dependants."

…But there was an **old man **among the, a Christian called al-Rumahis b. Mansur, who said, “By God the only error I have made since attaining reason was abandoning my religion, the religion of truth, for your, the religion of wickedness. No by God, I will not leave my religion and I will not accept yours so long as I live.” Ma’qil brought him forward and cut off his head."

Ma’qil wrote a letter to ‘Ali, the Caliph:

… For anyone who had apostatized, we offered return to Islam or else death. As for the Christians, we made them captive and led them off so that they might be a warning for those of the protected people who come after them not to refuse the jizyah and not to make bold against our religion and community, for the protected people are of little account and lowly in status.
 
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