Biblically, we are sojourners, not prisoners, of this world.It goes without saying that the body is what is responsible for keeping us prisoners in this lower world. We are living this life in exile.
Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Yes, to lack love for one another is an evil, but I was referring to God’s love for us even though we are living in a world of good and evil.
Agree, but this does not invalidate my contention that God is using evil to promote our salvation.
Jesus may not have stated that this world is miserable and corrupt, but many of the saints have inferred this.
"The death of the just: Death will reach everyone, the good and the bad; but the destiny of each one is quite different. The just man sees himself in this valley of tears as a prisoner, serving a very hard term. He considers himself a slave in this world, suffering an extremely distressing servitude. He regards himself a sailor caught in a horrible storm. And as death means an end of his confinement, an end of his slavery, and is the port of his salvation, he ceases not to cry with David, ‘Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!’ (Ps. 119:5)… He ceases not to ask with the Apostle’… Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Rom. 7:24)”
-The Golden Key to Heaven, by Saint Anthony Mary Claret
Insofar as Isaiah 45:7 is to be taken literally, which I believe it must, yes, I believe God creates evil.Biblically, we are sojourners, not prisoners, of this world.
Your statement “Agree, but this does not invalidate my contention that God is using evil to promote our salvation.” seems to suggest that God is the cause of, intends, evil. Is this your meaning?
Instead of a negative spin on the hardships of this life, how about taking a cue from St. Paul’s epistle that was read at Mass this past Sunday?It goes without saying that the body is what is responsible for keeping us prisoners in this lower world. We are living this life in exile.
So what is the literal meaning of “evil”?Insofar as Isaiah 45:7 is to be taken literally, which I believe it must, yes, I believe God creates evil.
Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)
Popular with whom, the Gnostics? The translation you provided is harder to find in a Google search than the standard (accurate) translations of Imitation of Christ, so I don’t think the translation you are using is as popular as you are claiming. Even if it were popular that doesn’t mean that it is accurate. It even admits to being inaccurate by calling itself an “Easy Read Edition”. But not only is it a bad translation it is a heretical one. Accurate translations of Imitation of Christ don’t contain the heretical quote which you have in the OP.I’m reading the version edited by Leo Sherley-Price (a popular translation).
amazon.com/Imitation-Christ-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140440275/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1383161863&sr=1-1&keywords=imitation+of+christ+by+thomas+kempis+price
I said I would not contribute further opinions. Since it is purely a question of translation, I will offer the original and a literal translation without comment.The only translation I could find of the Imitation of Christ that has that phrase in it is one called the “Easy Read Edition”. So, I conclude that the version you are using is a very poor translation and is therefore not a true representation of Thomas à Kempis Imitation of Christ. Since the belief that the body is evil or a “prison-house” is the heresy of Gnosticism perhaps the translators of the version you have are Gnostics.
You say “literally” the breath of life.Clay and Spirit, literally the breath of life.
That defines the Jewish belief.
The question is -always- “what is true?” If the Jews were wrong, as you seem to concede here, it would just be foolishness to continue holding to their wrong belief. If, on the other hand, they were -right,- it would be silly to resist that -right- belief.The question is not whether they were wrong, or right, but whether they are part of the Jewish experience.
I agree with all of that, but all of that is perfectly compatible with dualism, or even with the sort of “tri-ism” to which I hold.You are the one talking about monism. I am talking about the essential indivisibility of human nature. The body is not a skin that we can crawl out of, or a prison that we can escape. The body is sacramental and core to our very existence of human.
That is Christian belief. It is not the Jewish understanding of those verses.
I’m sorry, but I have to call this what it is. This whole paragraph is sophistry; especially the first sentence, in which I recognize the genetic fallacy at work; namely, trying to disprove a claim by explaining how the claim originated.Jewish understanding was eclectic on this, as the example of the Sadduccees already point out.
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, and the breath of life returns to whence it came. The bosom of Abraham is parable to a process we are not privy to.
Again, I agree, but this is compatible with dualism and tri-ism.Death is conquered not by the eternality of the soul in some non-material perfect Form, but in the resurrection of the body.
No. I don’t see that this follows. Something can be non-essential to our -existence- and still be essential to our -nature- as a person. For example, if I suddenly lost all my free will tonight, would I still exist? Of course I would. My free will is not necessary in order for my body to exist. However, my -nature- would be drastically changed. For one thing, I would no longer be free, or rational, and therefore, according to the definition of “human” proposed by Aristotle, I wouldn’t even be a human being anymore. As a -body,- I would continue to exist, but as a -person,- I would not.to put it another way, if the body is not essential to our existence as human being, then the resurrection of the body must also be a non-essential belief.
I think you must be using the word “soul” in a non-standard way. Please define your terms.Or let’s look at it another way. “It is not what goes into a man’s mouth that condemns him, but what comes out of his mouth”. We ought not therefore to conceive of the body as corrupting us, or condemning us, or imprisoning us, but it is our minds-our souls if you will-that are corrupting the body, condemning the body, imprisoning the body.
God, you mean? I agree.Biblically speaking, Spirit and Clay are our two creators, the breath of God and the mud shaped by God’s hands.
The existence of the mind, the intellect, the emotions, the will, and anything that can be conceived of as Soul, simply do not exist independent of that which creates us.
The Earth is an inanimate object. It doesn’t have tear ducts, nor is it able to feel in the way that human beings do. That’s crass paganism.It is the earth itself that cries out through the crimes of the soul; the earth that becomes corrupted through the blood of those we hate and will dead. If anything it is the soul that imprisons the body, and not the body that imprisons the soul. Evil is not engendered by the corrupting effects of body on soul, but it is a creation of the mind and the soul.
Here’s another quote using the same translation:The only translation I could find of the Imitation of Christ that has that phrase in it is one called the “Easy Read Edition”. So, I conclude that the version you are using is a very poor translation and is therefore not a true representation of Thomas à Kempis Imitation of Christ. Since the belief that the body is evil or a “prison-house” is the heresy of Gnosticism perhaps the translators of the version you have are Gnostics.
The Earth is an inanimate object. It doesn’t have tear ducts, nor is it able to feel in the way that human beings do. That’s crass paganism.
studybibleforum.com/htm_php.php3?do=show_node&b=42&c=19&v=40&show_ti=9&show_ts=2&show_user_id=729d428c5a0d468b0942a7c0dfcd489d&show_question_id=161417Romans 8:22
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
Question:
I will express a thought that has been a worshipful subject for me yesterday and today. I am looking for other scriptures that relate to the theme of “the ground crying out.”
Our church has just finished a lenten series, looking at the Fall. Yesterday, we were looking at Cain and Abel. I was interested that God says that Abel’s “blood cries out to me from the ground.” (Genesis 4:10) So, as the effects of the fall shape the 2nd generation, with the first murder, the ground is crying out with outrage and loss.
The effect is that the ground no longer helps Cain… this is the exile from the Garden, pushed even further. With Paul, we see that “the creation was subjected to futility.” (Romans 8:20) The universe is broken by the Fall, and yearns for redemption.
So, this verse about the ground crying out with Abel’s blood connects to the verse in Luke – where, if the people’s praises were silenced, the STONES would cry out in praise (Luke 19:40). The stones that suffered the Fall, recognize their Creator and Savior, and yearn for redemption.
So, I have shared this “meditation” with you. My only question is: are there other scriptures where the earth cries out? Are there other verses that would enrich the theme I have begun exploring above?
Thanks.
JRM
Answer:
The Voice of thy Brother’s BLOOD Crieth
In the text of Genesis 4:10 it is apparent that the voice of the BLOOD, not the ground, cries.
And he said, What hast thou done? THE VOICE OF THY BROTHER’S BLOOD [F29] crieth unto me from the ground. Genesis 4:10 (KJV) (FOOTNOTE: F29 blood: Heb. bloods)
What does it mean when it says "the voice of thy brother’s blood (literally, “bloods”) crieth unto me?
Matthew Henry writes: ‘3. In the original the word is plural, thy brother’s bloods, not only his blood, but the blood of all those that might have descended from him; or the blood of all the seed of the woman, who should, in like manner, seal the truth with their blood. Christ puts all on one score (Matthew 23:35); or because account was kept of every drop of blood shed. How well is it for us that the blood of Christ speaks better things than that of Abel! Hebrews 12:24. Abel’s blood cried for vengeance, Christ’s blood cries for pardon.’
(Henry, Matthew. “Complete Commentary on Genesis 4”. “Matthew Henry Complete Commentary
on the Whole Bible”. [www.studylight.org]](www.studylight.org]))
David Guzik writes:
'God’s curse upon Cain
'a. The idea of blood crying out to God from the ground is repeated in the Bible; murderers that are not punished defile the land (Numbers 35:29-34)
'b. The curse upon Cain was that Adam’s curse would be amplified in regard to him; if the bringing forth food from the earth would be toilsome for Adam (3:17-18), it would be impossible for Cain (who was a farmer); if Adam was driven from Eden (3:24), Cain would find no resting place on all the earth
‘c. The blood of Abel spoke, and it spoke of judgment. The blood of Jesus also speaks, but of better things - of grace and of sin having been judged (Hebrews 12:24)’
(Guzik, David. “Study Guide for Genesis Chapter 4.” Blue Letter Bible. 1 Mar 1996. 3 Apr 2006.
www.blueletterbible.org//
Comm/david_guzik/
sg/Gen_4.html].)
Grace to you,
Kalos
Creation Cries Out, “The Birth Pangs are Drawing Nigh”
By Derek Olsen
Text(s)
Daniel 12:1-3, Psalm 16, Hebrews 10:11-25, Mark 13:1-8
Our Gospel lesson today warns us about the birth-pangs - the events that precede the last judgment. Now generally, the Gospel connects into something about the Church year. What exactly is this saying - one happy thought to prepare us for Thanksgiving is the destruction of the world? Remember that the turkey may not be the only thing to get cooked. Why at this time, are we looking at this story? Is it because we are coming to the end of the year and we are running out of passages from Mark that haven’t been used so far? Perhaps this is the leftovers. Call me crazy, but I think that the lectionary designers had something else in mind.
As we come to the end of our calendar year we see preparations for Christmas. You know how it is - as soon as the Halloween decorations come down the Christmas trees go up. I was up at Lenox Mall earlier in the month and there were already Santa Clauses, Christmas trees and “festive holiday items” in all of the department stores. I always know when holiday time is approaching because the sales people at the bottoms of the elevators give the perfume sample to me instead of my wife and try to direct me to the not-so-subtle gift boxes. The business world is getting us in gear for Christmas.
Well, the reason why we have this text from Mark for today is - I think - in response to the merchandizing in the stores. The stores tell us of the coming of Christmas. The lectionary speaks about the coming of Christmas as well, but with a very different focus. The stores point to the coming of the shopping season; the lectionary points to the coming of Christ. The lectionary reminds us that Christmas proclaims the past coming of Christ - the incarnation at Bethlehem - and foretells his future coming as the judge of the world at the end of days. The choice of this text reminds us that something more comes at Christmas than just reindeer - even more than just a cute and cuddly baby.
.In meditating upon our Gospel this week, I was struck - as are many people - by the signs of the end: wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes and famines. The reference to earthquakes in particular stayed with me. Earthquakes appear a number of times throughout Scripture but the reference that particularly came to mind is from Psalm 114. “The sea looked back and fled; the Jordan turned back, the mountains skipped like rams, the hills like lambs.” The mountains skipped like rams. Have you ever seen a big dog shake water off of itself? The way that the front legs and the shoulders plant into the ground and then the hind legs generate a twisting spiraling motion? When I hear those verses that’s what I imagine - the mountains bracing themselves down into the earth and the hills twisting and shaking like the back of a giant dog. It’s an image of power, of primal strength, of raw energy, which we - you and I - cannot control. Looking a little further in the Psalm we find out why the hills shake themselves: Why is it, O sea, that you flee? O Jordan that you turn back? O mountains, that you skip like rams? O hills, like lambs? Tremble, O earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob. It is because they recognize the coming and the presence of God.
I used to think that God made earthquakes happen to let people know that he was around. What this Scripture tells us is that it is the other way around. God is not doing it; the earth itself cries out at the presence of its Creator. Praise the Lord from the earth, mountains and hills, fruit trees and all cedars! The earth recognizes its Lord and exults. We feel the earthquake as it calls out in greeting. This earth, this creation, these creatures that surround us, bear witness to God, cry out in testimony, to the incarnation, to the crucifixion, to the resurrection, to the coming again in glory. The world confesses with tongues of rock, with tongues of wind, the glory of the God who creates it, who sustains it, who grants it life and breath and power.
When we look at the earth - what do we see? When we talk about the stewardship of creation - what do we talk about? When I hear that word I think of managing and parceling out inanimate Things. It is hard to care about a thing. What Scripture reveals to us is more than things. This earth on which we walk, this air which we breathe this water which we drink these are not just things but fellow witnesses of the coming of our God. “For,” as Saint Paul reminds the Romans, “the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies.” The labor pains are here! And the earth cries out - along with us - for its redemption.
When we corrupt the earth, when we poison the waters and the air, we poison fellow witnesses. We silence the testimony to our Living God. The Church is the assembly of the saints. It’s the assembly of those who bear witness to the truth of Christ and who look for his coming. Who are we to say that the earth and the creatures of earth are to be denied our care? We don’t parcel out things when we care for creation. We minister to our neighbors - to our fellow witness to the glory and majesty of our Living God.
The year draws to a close - signs of death appear. The leaves fall from the trees, the nights grow longer - the days, shorter. The harvest is cut down. But it awaits a coming again. It awaits a resurrection. There is One coming. “The days are surely coming,” says the Lord, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch.” The earth stirs in its slumber, knowing that the birth-pangs are drawing nigh. Are we ready? Our new year has not come. Advent has not begun, but the lectionary reminds us that there is one who is coming. There is an infant coming to be born - and - one coming with the clouds of heaven. And there is one who seeks to be born in each of your hearts in the bleak mid-winter. The thunder calls a welcome - the geese cackle a hymn. The fruit trees and cedars murmur in their forests. They know the coming of their king. Do we? Are we blinded by tinsel? The living earth calls to its Living God. Are we as wise? Creation knows life; creation knows death. It knows seasons and times. Instead of silencing it - perhaps we should listen first. Amen.
More Lectionary Sermons
Ancient and Future Catholics
:thumbsup:Jesus didn’t advocate a negative attitude to our life on earth.Instead of a negative spin on the hardships of this life, how about taking a cue from St. Paul’s epistle that was read at Mass this past Sunday?
Think of life as a “race” and we are all striving toward the finish line. A crown of glory awaits, and there is a cloud of witnesses cheering us on.
Now, does a stadium where this race takes place sound like a prison? Or an opportunity for victory?
There are people that populate this Earth that must find the idea of life as a precious gift the most uninformed and most ridiculous bit of tripe ever typed on paper. A great many of them, in fact. There are no people on Earth who, prior to their own birth, can ever be said to have made a choice concerning what circumstances they were born nor the people that made them. There are many that have been handed life’s most horrible condition through no fault of their own and to them the statement is ludicrous, laughable and without any justification.
Imagine for just one moment the situation of the child born with horrible deformities. Each day a torment being followed by another of suffering. Imagine the other “normal” children that surround the child and how cruel they can be and we all know very well indeed how unmercifully cruel other children can be to even the most normal of children. Is life some great blessing for this child or a nightmare that it is forced to endure?
Imagine the impoverished, not the poor, but the homeless, starving, shoeless, poverty stricken that find meals in the waste cans of the middle class. Who daily beg for the merest morsel of uncontaminated food. Those who make “homes” out of empty dumpsters or covered landings until run off by the owners of the property. Those that contract the worst of diseases for lack of any socialized medical aid. Can any day to those poor wretches be said to be anything but a walk through hell?
Imagine now the good, normal, middle class families that have the hidden substance abuse or the cheating spouse. The families that torture each other mentally and/or physically in the name of anything from religious dogma to standard discipline. The families that push their young in directions that they don’t want to go in the name of some twisted family code or tradition that breaks the minds of their young. Sounds like a real good time, doesn’t it?
humanities360.com/index.php/life-is-a-precious-gift-9-64640/There are so many people that have life’s of abject misery to lead that only the blind, sheltered and completely out of touch could find this statement to carry any weight at all. If you are blessed enough to have any modicum of your wants and needs fulfilled, be happy and thank whatever deity it is that suits you. Your lucky and you’d do well to remember that. But, don’t suppose that your the norm and all those that think this life is a prison sentence to be lived through aren’t. There is more horror out there than most of us are willing to admit exists. Those that suffer through it on a daily basis, though, know it all too well.
Many of the saints were extremists and they had to be to bring people to their senses. But none of them denied the value of life in this world because they knew it is a precious opportunity to demonstrate our love for God and for others. There are no short-cuts to spiritual development.It goes without saying that the body is what is responsible for keeping us prisoners in this lower world. We are living this life in exile.
Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Yes, to lack love for one another is an evil, but I was referring to God’s love for us even though we are living in a world of good and evil.
Agree, but this does not invalidate my contention that God is using evil to promote our salvation.
Jesus may not have stated that this world is miserable and corrupt, but many of the saints have inferred this.
"The death of the just: Death will reach everyone, the good and the bad; but the destiny of each one is quite different. The just man sees himself in this valley of tears as a prisoner, serving a very hard term. He considers himself a slave in this world, suffering an extremely distressing servitude. He regards himself a sailor caught in a horrible storm. And as death means an end of his confinement, an end of his slavery, and is the port of his salvation, he ceases not to cry with David, ‘Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!’ (Ps. 119:5)… He ceases not to ask with the Apostle’… Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Rom. 7:24)”
-The Golden Key to Heaven, by Saint Anthony Mary Claret
If what you’re saying is just that the Jews used metaphor a lot to describe God’s feelings, or the difficulties of this life, I agree, but the bible passage you cited certainly does not imply that the created universe, much less the planet Earth, is itself a sentient thing with feelings.
He didn’t advocate a positive attitude to our life on Earth either. Jesus didn’t come to Earth to make optimists or pessimists. He came to make saints.:thumbsup:Jesus didn’t advocate a negative attitude to our life on earth.
Oh, hardly. After all, a person may be locked up in a -real- prison, but that doesn’t mean that his time there has no meaning or purpose, much less that he’s separated from God’s presence. He might reform in prison, and be drawn -closer- to God, as we are expected to do in our own lives.To describe this life as a prison is to regard it as valueless, purposeless and meaningless. It amounts to a rejection of God’s presence with us during our pilgrimage…
It is not what I am saying. It is what the Bible is saying and what other Catholics even are saying.If what you’re saying is just that the Jews used metaphor a lot to describe God’s feelings, or the difficulties of this life, I agree, but the bible passage you cited certainly does not imply that the created universe, much less the planet Earth, is itself a sentient thing with feelings.
Anyone who attributes to inanimate things the properties of intelligence or emotion, or other such things, -seriously believing them to have such properties- is guilty of what essentially amounts to a pagan superstition, but this is not the view the Jews took.It is not what I am saying. It is what the Bible is saying and what other Catholics even are saying.
It is no different than what you snottily brush off as crass paganism before.
If the Bible says it, or if Jews say it(there were no Jewish voices in my link), or if other Christians say it, it must be mere metaphor, but if I say it, it must be crass paganism?!!!
Methinks you are a philosopher of the school of cheap shots.
Since you are already aware that I find that there exists a rich tradition of metaphors in Jewish writings, I am correct in my assessment that your going on to accuse me of crass paganism was engaging in the philosophy of the cheap shot.Anyone who attributes to inanimate things the properties of intelligence or emotion, or other such things, -seriously believing them to have such properties- is guilty of what essentially amounts to a pagan superstition, but this is not the view the Jews took.
You once pointed out that the ancient Jewish culture was filled with rich metaphors, and that’s precisely what it is when the bible speaks of creation groaning, or mountains shouting, or trees clapping their hands to the Lord. None of these things is intended to be taken literally.
We cannot be saints unless we have a positive belief in the value of our actions in this world. If we are merely waiting to die we are not following the example or teaching of Jesus.Jesus didn’t advocate a negative attitude to our life on earth. He didn’t advocate a positive attitude to our life on Earth either. Jesus didn’t come to Earth to make optimists or pessimists. He came to make saints.
Oh, hardly. After all, a person may be locked up in a -real- prison, but that doesn’t mean that his time there has no meaning or purpose, much less that he’s separated from God’s presence. He might reform in prison, and be drawn -closer- to God, as we are expected to do in our own lives.To describe this life as a prison is to regard it as valueless, purposeless and meaningless. It amounts to a rejection of God’s presence with us during our pilgrimage…