Are our bodies like prison cells?

[tonyrey]

The ‘deadly poison’ resulted from the sin of Adam and Eve. How could a loving God inflict this Original Sin upon each and every human? But He did. Any way you look at it, evil is alive and well in our world.

Evil is indeed a fact of life but why is the poison deadly?

 

[GEddie]

The ‘deadly poison’ resulted from the sin of Adam and Eve. How could a loving God inflict this Original Sin upon each and every human? But He did. Any way you look at it, evil is alive and well in our world.

Ok, but that has no connection with our bodies, given that A&E had bodies before they fell, and would have kept them for ever!

And remember, God called that “very good.”

You can examine your body from skull-dome to toe tips; or a doctor could do so; or a mortician after you are dead, and find no sin there. Sin does not reside in our bodies, it resides in our thoughts and feelings. Our bodies are made to die for something they had only a minor part in.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[mytruepower2]

While in the prison-house of this body, I acknowledge my need of two things -food and light.
-The Imitation of Christ, Book 1, Chapter11

It would be more accurate to say that -the current state of- our bodies is like a prison cell. We exist, assaulted by incessant, bodily needs, unable to alter one hair of our head, or one gram or centimeter of those bodies by will alone, unable to assume any shape or appearance but the pitiful, human one imposed upon us, unable to traverse distances without passing through the intervening space, unable to pass through any space which is already occupied, unable to decide for or against our passions, and maintain total self control, unable to see the true nature of others, or show others the true nature of ourselves in a way that they can perceive, unable to manifest our desires and needs around ourselves, and ultimately, doomed to perish in a relatively short time. There is nothing un-prison-like about this state of affairs.

However, this is not the fault of the body -as such.- It is possible to conceive of a body which does not suffer from any of these crippling, unacceptable ailments.

 

[mytruepower2]

The ‘deadly poison’ resulted from the sin of Adam and Eve. How could a loving God inflict this Original Sin upon each and every human? But He did. Any way you look at it, evil is alive and well in our world.

You’re placing the blame wrongly. God didn’t impose original sin on Adam and his descendants. Adam himself did that. God is only involved in the sense that a brick wall is involved when you knowingly and willing drive your pinto into it.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Evil is indeed a fact of life but why is the poison deadly?

Death came into the world as a result of the sin. (If I’m reading your question correctly).

 

[CrossofChrist]

While in the prison-house of this body, I acknowledge my need of two things -food and light.
-The Imitation of Christ, Book 1, Chapter11

Of course not!

If they are prison cells, what is the purpose of the Second Coming and the Resurrection of the Body? If they are cells, we are better off not being resurrected.

And if they are cells, why did Christ become man? Why would he rise from the dead and ascend into heaven with his body? Why would the Blessed Virgin receive the grace to be assumed body and soul into heaven after her Dormition if it was a punishment? How would that even be a “grace” then?

No, our bodies are complementary to our souls. This is a large part of what St. Augustine had to accept when becoming Catholic–that our bodies aren’t merely prisons like Plato thought.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Ok, but that has no connection with our bodies, given that A&E had bodies before they fell, and would have kept them for ever!

According to the CCC Adam and Eve did indeed have bodies before the fall, but I don’t really agree. My contention is that Adam and Eve were pure spirits before the fall, and became human when God clothed them in ‘garments of skin.’

And remember, God called that “very good.”

According to Jewish mysticism. the term ‘very good’ connotes the evil inclination.

You can examine your body from skull-dome to toe tips; or a doctor could do so; or a mortician after you are dead, and find no sin there. Sin does not reside in our bodies, it resides in our thoughts and feelings. Our bodies are made to die for something they had only a minor part in.

I agree, but the soul, I believe, would soar if it were not for the body.

 

[dshix]

According to the CCC Adam and Eve did indeed have bodies before the fall, but I don’t really agree. My contention is that Adam and Eve were pure spirits before the fall, and became human when God clothed them in ‘garments of skin.’

According to Jewish mysticism. the term ‘very good’ connotes the evil inclination.

I agree, but the soul, I believe, would soar if it were not for the body.

Oh, dear, you “don’t really agree.” I guess that means you are promoting heresy, by knowingly objecting to and contradicting a *doctrine *of the Church.

Be very, very careful, Robert. Don’t think you want to be a heretic.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Oh, dear, you “don’t really agree.” I guess that means you are promoting heresy, by knowingly objecting to and contradicting a *doctrine *of the Church.

Be very, very careful, Robert. Don’t think you want to be a heretic.

It’s my understanding that the CCC is not infallible.

 

[tonyrey]

Death came into the world as a result of the sin. (If I’m reading your question correctly).

Christians believe we have been liberated from both physical and spiritual death by the Precious Blood of Jesus. We are certainly not in a prison because when we respond to His love we share His life and belong to the Communion of Saints. Jesus Himself told us that the truth makes us free and St Paul wrote:

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 5:1

 

[christofirst]

What do you if you suffer from panic attacks that will not ease up, like with me? They drive me to want to commit suicide, that’s how bad they are. The passage I quoted speaks to me in ways it does not speak to the average person. Creation is anything but beautiful to me.

I voted no, without denying that for many of us, our bodies can certainly seem like prisons.

Robert, I believe you have said that you live a life of solitude. Are you certain that this is your calling? Could it be that your panic attacks are especially unbearable because there is no one to share in your misery? It is well known that solitary confinement can be the worst kind of imprisonment.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Christians believe we have been liberated from both physical and spiritual death by the Precious Blood of Jesus. We are certainly not in a prison because when we respond to His love we share His life and belong to the Communion of Saints. Jesus Himself told us that the truth makes us free and St Paul wrote:

Galatians 5:1

As long as we are in these worldly bodies, we are slaves. Our glorious bodies at the time of the resurrection may be a different story,

 

[mytruepower2]

It’s my understanding that the CCC is not infallible.

Really? I thought the purpose of the CCC was to provide a comprehensive list of the doctrinal beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. Is that not the case, and if not, where can one turn to for such a list?

 

[tonyrey]

As long as we are in these worldly bodies, we are slaves. Our glorious bodies at the time of the resurrection may be a different story,

Christians believe we** are** liberated from both physical and spiritual death by the Precious Blood of Jesus. We are certainly not in a prison because when we respond to His love we **share **His life and belong to the Communion of Saints. Jesus Himself told us that the truth makes us free and St Paul wrote:
Quote:
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 5:1

Our worldly bodies are glorious now because not only are they designed by God but
glorified by the Incarnation and Resurrection. It is a Manichean heresy that the body is evil and the source of all temptation. **The yoke of slavery exists only in the mind.
**

 

[Darryl1958]

Platonic Greek thought would believe the body to be the corruptible and corrupted prison cell of the perfect soul.

Because bodies die, perfection lies in the ideal, which is the eternal soul.

While Christianity has become thoroughly infused with Platonism, I do not think that one can properly be a Christian and hang on to the ideals of Platonism.

Christianity teaches the Resurrection of the Body. Christianity is about eating of the Tree of Life, which is the Body of Christ, and living forever, indivisible from the Body.

Christianity is sacramental. It is not about escape from the body, but Redemption of the person, mind, body and soul as one indivisible unity.

We do not escape from our body. We **are **our body.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Christians believe we** are** liberated from both physical and spiritual death by the Precious Blood of Jesus. We are certainly not in a prison because when we respond to His love we **share **His life and belong to the Communion of Saints. Jesus Himself told us that the truth makes us free and St Paul wrote:
Quote:
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 5:1

Our worldly bodies are glorious now because not only are they designed by God but
glorified by the Incarnation and Resurrection. It is a Manichean heresy that the body is evil and the source of all temptation. **The yoke of slavery exists only in the mind.
**

What about all the saints who believed that the body was a prison?

And the biblical references:

‘Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!’ (Ps. 119:5)

‘Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?’ (Rom. 7:24)

These saints and references must be addressed for your contention to be taken seriously.

 

[dshix]

It’s my understanding that the CCC is not infallible.

And where did you obtain that understanding?

First, I must clarify: the word “infallible” is the wrong word. That is only properly applied to the Pope and the Magisterium’s teaching.

The CCC is the composite of the doctrines of the Church, all of which are infallibly true. These doctrines will never change, and never be contradicted. They may be modified, as greater understanding in certain areas is reached, but they cannot be contradicted.

Thus, if one of your opinions is contradicting the CCC, you are in heresy.

 

[Robert_Sock]

And where did you obtain that understanding?

First, I must clarify: the word “infallible” is the wrong word. That is only properly applied to the Pope and the Magisterium’s teaching.

The CCC is the composite of the doctrines of the Church, all of which are infallibly true. These doctrines will never change, and never be contradicted. They may be modified, as greater understanding in certain areas is reached, but they cannot be contradicted.

Thus, if one of your opinions is contradicting the CCC, you are in heresy.

Well then I believe it will need to be modified. The body and soul can be seen as a unity as they exist in this life, but they can also be seen as being separate, as in Jewish mysticism. My understanding is that only the soul immediately goes to Heaven (or Purgatory or Hell) after bodily death, but will be reunited with the glorified body at the time of the resurrection.

 

[Qoeleth]

I am amazed and shocked at the lack of knowledge of Catholic tradition exhibited by so many ‘experts’ (sive vocantes sibi periti!), who seem not to have read the writings of the saints or the Fathers. There are several perfectly orthodox views appearing here, and several unorthodox ones. Sinete me clarificare res, ut unus qui scio forte fere plusquam nihil.

According to the CCC Adam and Eve did indeed have bodies before the fall, but I don’t really agree. My contention is that Adam and Eve were pure spirits before the fall, and became human when God clothed them in ‘garments of skin.’

That is not strictly orthodox, but certainly it is correct to that the bodies before the Fall were of a metaphysically different nature- and not subject to disease, death and labor. So, yes, there were bodies, but ‘spiritual bodies’ (paradoxical as that seems).

Christians believe we have been liberated from both physical and spiritual death by the Precious Blood of Jesus. We are certainly not in a prison because when we respond to His love we share His life and belong to the Communion of Saints.

Yes, in one sense we are already freed, but in another sense we continue to labor, suffer and struggle. “Who will free me from this body of death?” There is an element of paradox in a situation.

As long as we are in these worldly bodies, we are slaves. Our glorious bodies at the time of the resurrection may be a different story,

That is perfectly orthodox teaching.

Christians believe we** are** liberated from both physical and spiritual death by the Precious Blood of Jesus. We are certainly not in a prison because when we respond to His love we **share **His life and belong to the Communion of Saints. Jesus Himself told us that the truth makes us free and St Paul wrote:
Quote:
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Galatians 5:1

Our worldly bodies are glorious now because not only are they designed by God but
glorified by the Incarnation and Resurrection. It is a Manichean heresy that the body is evil and the source of all temptation. **The yoke of slavery exists only in the mind.
**

That is true, that the yoke of slavery exists only in the mind. However, it is often experienced through the body (as in temptation or physical suffering, etc.) Therefore it is a valid metaphor to describe, or to experience the bodily condition as one of imprisonment. Remember, St. Francis prayer to be delivered “from the wretched prison of the body.” I could list dozens of saints who employ the same metaphor. It is a perfectly valid us of image.

Like saying Heaven is ‘above’. It is not literally above, but it is an accepted part of our spiritual vocabulary.

Platonic Greek thought would believe the body to be the corruptible and corrupted prison cell of the perfect soul.

Because bodies die, perfection lies in the ideal, which is the eternal soul.

While Christianity has become thoroughly infused with Platonism, I do not think that one can properly be a Christian and hang on to the ideals of Platonism.

Christianity teaches the Resurrection of the Body. Christianity is about eating of the Tree of Life, which is the Body of Christ, and living forever, indivisible from the Body.

Christianity is sacramental. It is not about escape from the body, but Redemption of the person, mind, body and soul as one indivisible unity.

We do not escape from our body. We **are **our body.

The last statement is not orthodox. Our bodies may be considered part of us, but we are NOT our bodies.

Well then I believe it will need to be modified. The body and soul can be seen as a unity as they exist in this life, but they can also be seen as being separate, as in Jewish mysticism. My understanding is that only the soul immediately goes to Heaven (or Purgatory or Hell) after bodily death, but will be reunited with the glorified body at the time of the resurrection.

That is a perfectly orthodox expression.

 

[GEddie]

We are our body, as much as we are our soul. There is no human being – literally nobody – without human body.

It is true, orthodoxly, that “we are NOT our bodies,” but it is equally true that " we are NOT our souls!" We are not spirits, we are human beings and as such, soulish bodies (psychikon soma).

And it is inaccurate that A&E had spiritual bodies in Eden. Their bodies were the same as ours, because they were the ancestors of ours. They were not immortal, they needed the Tree of Life to keep them from dying; and so kicked out of Eden, they died.

ICXC NIKA