Are people naturally virtuous/vicious or not?

[jmcrae]

That’s interesting.

What examples would you give, from day to day living, that you would call ‘evil’ that you think I or most people engage in, either unknowingly, or that we wouldn’t call ‘evil’

Sarah x

Walking off with someone’s pen by accident, and then not returning it when you realize you’ve done so, due to laziness or embarrassment; letting a door shut in someone’s face out of laziness or spite, and then acting like it was an accident; tailgating someone if you think they are driving too slowly, to try and make them speed up; telling your child to lie to the person at the door and say that you’re not available, because you don’t feel like dealing with them; running out for an errand in the middle of the afternoon and then not returning to work for the rest of the day because you don’t think you’ll be missed … I could probably go on for several pages on little things that I’ve done to other people or that people have done to me, even though most of the time we’re honest and good, or trying hard to be honest and good.

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

That would hardly be a day to day occurance would it?

Sarah x

I am exaggerating just to be fun (I was not ).
Accidents with hunters and guns are an everyday occurrence. Some I know: a friend of mine killed the dog of his friend, another was shot on the leg mistaken for a boar, another in the midst of a fog got his chest riddled with lead, that he will keep as a souvenir for the rest of his life. Never touched me deaths but I see in the hunting season everyday occurrences.

 

[Abba]

There are two different kinds of goodness, which i think need to be distinguished. There is ontological goodness (i.e. a goodness of nature and being) and there is moral goodness (which is a habit of action and exercise of free will). We are human nature is ontologically good, however, man is not necessarily morally good. Moral goodness is not unnatural to him, but it is difficult. All human beings are potentially morally good, but not all realize that potential.

Thank you for providing such a clear distinction. Since God considered His creation good, then humans are ontologically good, but not morally good as Jesus points out (due to the inclination to sin caused by original sin):
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.

I wonder why He did not even considered Himself good even though He was born without original sin and did not have the inclination to sin?

One thing that I have noticed is the need of human beings to consider themselves good. Even the most harden criminals consider that there is some goodness in them.

I think the beatitudes shows the goodness of people. People like the thought and long for heaven - where there is no evil because as humans they reject evil.

St. Matthew

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. (Verse 4)
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[atheistgirl]

Walking off with someone’s pen by accident, and then not returning it when you realize you’ve done so, due to laziness or embarrassment;

Do you really class acts such as this ‘‘evil’’

Sarah x

 

[jmcrae]

Do you really class acts such as this ‘‘evil’’

Sarah x

They lack in goodness; therefore, they are evil. Imperfection is evil.

 

[atheistgirl]

They lack in goodness; therefore, they are evil. Imperfection is evil.

So Saint Paul by his own admission was full of these ‘‘evil’’ doings, couldn’t do the good he wanted to do and did the evil things he didn’t want to do.

Strange guy. But he’s still a Saint

Sarah x

 

[davidv]

So Saint Paul by his own admission was full of these ‘‘evil’’ doings, couldn’t do the good he wanted to do and did the evil things he didn’t want to do.

Strange guy. But he’s still a Saint

Sarah x

True. And because he freely admitted it, rather than denying it, he was forgiven and became holy (less sinful).

But not strange at all - except his perseverance, he is everyman.

 

[fhansen]

What does it mean that human nature is or is not good or evil?

It seems that human nature is good since human nature is reason and reason is prudence and prudence is a virtue. So humans are naturally good.

But it seems that human nature is not good since good is a habit that takes practice and nothing that takes practice is natural. So human nature is not good or bad.

However, reason takes practice so human nature would not be natural which is absurd.

So there must be some way in which reason and good is in one way natural and in another way unnatural.

Can you think of any because I can’t.

Human nature tends towards corruption and nihilism without grace, without God, the being Adam & Eve rejected for all pratical purposes. We were meant to commune with Him in order to maintain our moral integrity, and with it our happiness, and yet we’re born separated from Him. The New Covenant is all about the restoration of that severed vital relationship so man can live again- as he was intended to.

 

[Taestron]

I wonder why He did not even considered Himself good even though He was born without original sin and did not have the inclination to sin?

Perhaps because he had not yet been made “perfect through suffering” or “learned obedience” yet.

In the same vein, can we say that “nature” is also a potential and not always actual?
Can we say that “reason” is also potential and sometimes actual (as when a brain-dead person is called human but only because he has potential reason whereas a good man with reason is called “rational” in the fully actualized way)?

Hence, Jesus’ divinity and sinlessness (and, from a Catholic perspective, the Blessed Virgin’s sinlessness) make Him more human, not less. Our calling is to become more like Jesus, and hence more fully human in act (we are already human by nature, that is in potentiality).

Edwin

Hmmmm. Sounds plausible. But something about it doesn’t mesh up with Adam and Eve. Obviously they saw God but still could choose to sin, so they were not fully human, even before the fall? I guess I could agree with that, but if their human nature still had potential, how could they fulfill their nature more?

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

So Saint Paul by his own admission was full of these ‘‘evil’’ doings, couldn’t do the good he wanted to do and did the evil things he didn’t want to do.

Strange guy. But he’s still a Saint

Sarah x

Are you a saint? A perfect person? Who never did anything wrong?
From one of your previous posts, it made me think that you are perfect. Is it so?

If yes, congratulations! But sorry, I do not believe.

If not, you are like St. Paul !

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

Human nature tends towards corruption and nihilism without grace, without God, the being Adam & Eve rejected for all pratical purposes. We were meant to commune with Him in order to maintain our moral integrity, and with it our happiness, and yet we’re born separated from Him. The New Covenant is all about the restoration of that severed vital relationship so man can live again- as he was intended to.

 

[atheistgirl]

Are you a saint?

Yes.

A perfect person?

Yes.

Who never did anything wrong?

No.

From one of your previous posts, it made me think that you are perfect.

Good. You’re on the same hymnsheet.

Is it so?

Yes.

If yes, congratulations!

Thank you.

But sorry, I do not believe.

Awww - you were doing so well up to that point. This just highlights your sinfullness and uncharitable nature, which is, in a manner of speaking, an evil, you must learn to overcome.

If not, you are like St. Paul !

Nope.

He did things he didn’t want to do, and didn’t do the things he did want to do.

Unlike me :angel1:



Sarah x

 

[Contarini]

Hmmmm. Sounds plausible. But something about it doesn’t mesh up with Adam and Eve. Obviously they saw God but still could choose to sin, so they were not fully human, even before the fall? I guess I could agree with that, but if their human nature still had potential, how could they fulfill their nature more?

According to Irenaeus, Adam and Eve were like innocent children–they needed to grow into maturity.

Edwin

 

[Taestron]

According to Irenaeus, Adam and Eve were like innocent children–they needed to grow into maturity.

Edwin

I have heard that before. Did Irenaeus expound upon the subject at all? I just can’t comprehend how exactly they were like children. I assume they were following God’s other commands before the fall (exercising dominion, being fruitful and multiplying, etc), and they had at least of rudimentary understanding of death else they couldn’t comprehend God’s warning. And perhaps most importantly, they walked with God and so enjoyed at least a taste of the beatific vision. They only thing they seemed to lack was the knowledge of good and evil. I wonder then what God’s plan was to allow them to gain this knowledge in a non-sinful way.

 

[PRmerger]

What does it mean that human nature is or is not good or evil?

It seems that human nature is good since human nature is reason and reason is prudence and prudence is a virtue. So humans are naturally good.

But it seems that human nature is not good since good is a habit that takes practice and nothing that takes practice is natural. So human nature is not good or bad.

You got it! Like most Catholic answers, it’s not either/or but both/and.

We are naturally virtuous* and *naturally vicious.

Notwithstanding the both/and part, all we need to do is pick up a newspaper to know that we are not how we were intended to be by the Creator.

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

Yes.

Yes.

No.

Good. You’re on the same hymnsheet.

Yes.

Thank you.

Awww - you were doing so well up to that point. This just highlights your sinfullness and uncharitable nature, which is, in a manner of speaking, an evil, you must learn to overcome.

Nope.

He did things he didn’t want to do, and didn’t do the things he did want to do.

Unlike me :angel1:



Sarah x

You are funny, atheistgirl, and I love you for being so.
Unfortunately, you are totally wrong.
Now, you are perfect, B is perfect, C is perfect, D is perfect, everybody is perfect except St Paul and me.
So, explain to me, please, where does the evil come from ?
From St Paul and Me Only?
We should never ask the age to a lady, but I guess. You should be 13 to 15 years old. Right?
I love to hear your answers…

 

[PRmerger]

Now, you are perfect, B is perfect, C is perfect, D is perfect, everybody is perfect except St Paul and me.

And me!

 

[atheistgirl]

So, explain to me, please, where does the evil come from ?

What do you mean by evil? Not holding open a door for someone

From St Paul and Me Only?

Well, I don’t think ‘‘St Paul’’ exists, so he’s in the clear.

As for you, I couldn’t say

You should be 13 to 15 years old. Right?

Aw, that was a good effort but you really really really got to try harder.

Although, given my height and build, and stunning youthful looks I have been asked shouldn’t I be in school when I turned up for a meeting

:curtsey:

You see, this is what living a good clean non-evil wholesome life does for you

You should try it sometime

Sarah x

 

[jmcrae]

What do you mean by evil? Not holding open a door for someone

Being less than you were created to be - so, not holding the door for someone when you could have, or any little act of kindness that makes other people’s days go a bit easier for them.

 

[Sonny_Jim]

Just an interesting observation.

If sentient beings not aquainted with humanity were to encounter the comments section on youtube, and this were their only point of reference for the human race, they would conclude that humanity if naturally vicious.

Now whether or not it’s the anonymity of the internet or the nature of the current culture that lends to youtube comments such rampant viciousness, I don’t know. In either case, the senseless vitriol is undeniable and overwhelminlgy ridiculous.