Are people naturally virtuous/vicious or not?

[atheistgirl]

Being less than you were created to be - so, not holding the door for someone when you could have, or any little act of kindness that makes other people’s days go a bit easier for them.

Is there a limit?

Is there a point at which you can say, this is the most and best I can do, since I only have 24 hours in the day, and two hands and two legs?

I do RAKs all the time, my day is over flowing with RAKS

But there’s a limit based on the constraints I mentioned above.

If I’m 100 yards from a guy struggling with shopping to his car, and I don’t drop mine, leave my kids unattended, and run to help him, after just working a 14 hour day myself, have I committed ‘‘evil’’?

I’m not trying to be flippant by the way, I do know what you mean, I’m just trying to see if there are limits in your view, and where do these limits lay.

My understanding is even Jesus, who is the epitomy of perfection, had limits - he slept, he got hungry and ate, he got kranky

Sarah x

 

[jmcrae]

Is there a limit?

Is there a point at which you can say, this is the most and best I can do, since I only have 24 hours in the day, and two hands and two legs?

I do RAKs all the time, my day is over flowing with RAKS

But there’s a limit based on the constraints I mentioned above.

If I’m 100 yards from a guy struggling with shopping to his car, and I don’t drop mine, leave my kids unattended, and run to help him, after just working a 14 hour day myself, have I committed ‘‘evil’’?

No - but then again, if you’ve looked after the kids, and your groceries are all in, and your route takes you right past the guy, and he’s still struggling when you drive up to where he is, then it would be appropriate to roll down the window and ask him if he might like a hand. I’d feel bad if I just kept going past him, in that situation. But it wouldn’t be reasonable to neglect your own duties to take care of a stranger.

I’m not trying to be flippant by the way, I do know what you mean, I’m just trying to see if there are limits in your view, and where do these limits lay.

I wouldn’t say “limits” as such, but there is a hierarchy of needs: my baby, #1; my child #2, my spouse, #3, other family members, #4; close friends, #5; people from work, #6, and then finally strangers, #7.

So it would depend on what else was going on, and certainly, the needs of my children come ahead of (and can displace) the needs of strangers.

Setting and keeping priorities is also part of becoming perfect.

 

[atheistgirl]

No - but then again, if you’ve looked after the kids, and your groceries are all in, and your route takes you right past the guy, and he’s still struggling when you drive up to where he is, then it would be appropriate to roll down the window and ask him if he might like a hand. I’d feel bad if I just kept going past him, in that situation. But it wouldn’t be reasonable to neglect your own duties to take care of a stranger.

Ok good - this is what I would do.

I wouldn’t say “limits” as such, but there is a hierarchy of needs: my baby, #1; my child #2, my spouse, #3, other family members, #4; close friends, #5; people from work, #6, and then finally strangers, #7.

So it would depend on what else was going on, and certainly, the needs of my children come ahead of (and can displace) the needs of strangers.

Ok good again as we are in agreement, yet again Of course, it can depend on the situation. Bad example coming up as I haven’t time to think of a better one, but if another family member #4, needed something, that I believed could wait, and wan’t that terribly important, whereas in the 2 minutes I had spare at that exact moment, a complete stranger dropped in front of me, #7, I’d prioritize the needs of the stranger, or at least investigate with those two minutes to see if I could help as the potential for this to be something serious outweighs the need of my nephew to have me look up a number for him.

Setting and keeping priorities is also part of becoming perfect.

We’re doing pretty good here.

Sarah x

 

[jmcrae]

Ok good again as we are in agreement, yet again Of course, it can depend on the situation. Bad example coming up as I haven’t time to think of a better one, but if another family member #4, needed something, that I believed could wait, and wan’t that terribly important, whereas in the 2 minutes I had spare at that exact moment, a complete stranger dropped in front of me, #7, I’d prioritize the needs of the stranger, or at least investigate with those two minutes to see if I could help as the potential for this to be something serious outweighs the need of my nephew to have me look up a number for him.

I’d have to agree with that, as well - the severity and urgency of the need would also be a factor, as well, and in this scenario, the stranger would get my first attention, to make him comfortable, perform First Aid, and summon an ambulance, before attending to a less urgent need elsewhere.

Of course, once the stranger was safely in the hands of medical professionals, my relative would then become my first priority, and his or her need would also be met.

In cases where the need was identical, my relative would get my first attention.

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

Ok good - this is what I would do.

Ok good again as we are in agreement, yet again Of course, it can depend on the situation. Bad example coming up as I haven’t time to think of a better one, but if another family member #4, needed something, that I believed could wait, and wan’t that terribly important, whereas in the 2 minutes I had spare at that exact moment, a complete stranger dropped in front of me, #7, I’d prioritize the needs of the stranger, or at least investigate with those two minutes to see if I could help as the potential for this to be something serious outweighs the need of my nephew to have me look up a number for him.



We’re doing pretty good here.

Sarah x

Let me put some clear cut examples. the door example is so tiny…
But, atheistgirl, where does Holocaust, genocide, rape, murder, Syria murders, Gulags, racism, slavery, where do these things come from?
These are no-argument evil, clear cut cases.
I will answer my way: it come from within each one of us, for we have all something of evil. Besides, I believe that there is the Devil, who can influence the Planet when God allows Him to work.

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

What do you mean by evil? Not holding open a door for someone

Sarah x

And what do you think I mean by evil? "Not holding open a door for someone " ??? Are you serious ?
So, as you do not know St. Paul exist, it means he does not exist? If you do not care, why are you so much bothered by his words?
Are you sure you do not not whether I am evil or not?
Why do you ask questions but never answer to none? I asked you: you and everybody is perfect, except St. Paul and I (I say that I am bad). So where does the evil come from. Definition of evil: what you think is evil…
Well, you are between 25 to 35. Right?
Indian Ascent? I am American Indian Ascent, but the real Indian, from India…from my mother side…
Now, you are contradicting yourself. You say: “As for you, I couldn’t say ” you do not know whether I am evil and in the end you say “You should try it sometime:shrug:”, “living a good clean non-evil wholesome life” that you live. Now, am I good or bad?.

God Bless You, atheist girl.

 

[atheistgirl]

I will answer my way: it come from within each one of us,

I’d agree with that - we are capable, as a species, dependent on the conditions, of enormous achievement and great good, and enormous destruction and great bad.

Besides, I believe that there is the Devil, who can influence the Planet when God allows Him to work.

So, is it your view that evil is objective, just like good is objective, and just as good is objective because it comes from God, evil is objective because it comes from the Devil?

But this objective evil can only come from the Devil, when God allows it to?

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

And what do you think I mean by evil? "Not holding open a door for someone " ??? Are you serious ?

Some one else here gace that as an example of the day to day ‘‘evil’’ we are capable of, in that, we don’t always do the things we want to - such as holding the door for some one, and do the things we don’t want to do - such as being too lazy to help someone out.

So, as you do not know St. Paul exist, it means he does not exist? If you do not care, why are you so much bothered by his words?

I’m not, others brought him up, I didn’t.

Since I don’t believe in Heaven or Hell, that makes it impossible for me to believe there is a Saint in Heaven call St. Paul

Are you sure you do not not whether I am evil or not?

Yes, I’m quite sure I don’t know.

Why do you ask questions but never answer to none? I asked you: you and everybody is perfect, except St. Paul and I (I say that I am bad).

I don’t refuse to answer questions. I was simply asking you to clarify what you meant by evil.

So where does the evil come from.

There’s no such thing as ‘‘evil’’ that exists as an entity, to me anyhow.

People do bad things, for any number of complicated reasons, ranging from personal ambition and lack of empathy for others, through to megalomaniacal political ambition, to desperation caused by natural disasters to everything in beteween.

It’s simply not possible to answer in a paragraph or two. The factors above coupled with mental health issues, family conditioning, education, job opportunities, the society people are in and how it’s functioning and so on have lead to millions of studies and books on the subject.

The simplest answer to give you is for me, it has nothing to do with God or the Devil.

Now, you are contradicting yourself. You say: “As for you, I couldn’t say ” you do not know whether I am evil and in the end you say “You should try it sometime:shrug:”, “living a good clean non-evil wholesome life” that you live. Now, am I good or bad?.

There’s no contradiciton there

You subscribe to the idea we are all broken, sinful people. Therefor you’re admitting you’re sinful and evil.

However, I actually don’t know whether you are or not

Sarah x

 

[Taestron]

There’s no such thing as ‘‘evil’’ that exists as an entity, to me anyhow.

People do bad things, for any number of complicated reasons, ranging from personal ambition and lack of empathy for others, through to megalomaniacal political ambition, to desperation caused by natural disasters to everything in beteween.

It’s simply not possible to answer in a paragraph or two. The factors above coupled with mental health issues, family conditioning, education, job opportunities, the society people are in and how it’s functioning and so on have lead to millions of studies and books on the subject.

The simplest answer to give you is for me, it has nothing to do with God or the Devil.

Hi Sarah,

Actually, in a way your version of evil isn’t too different than St. Augustine’s. He defined evil as the lack of good, like darkness to light or cold to heat. You may have seen the story of the student and the physics professor which was circling the internet a few months back. If so, the story is cheesy and ridiculous but the theory is real enough. Now, the major difference between your conception of morality and mine is that I subscribe to the notion that goodness must be defined in terms of God. From your comments earlier, I gather that you believe morality to be subjective and not objective. Fair enough, but I was wondering if you could be troubled to tell me what is the subjective basis for morality?

 

[atheistgirl]

Fair enough, but I was wondering if you could be troubled to tell me what is the subjective basis for morality?

In a sentence, because I’m about to leave - rational assessment of actions and consequences with the view to minimizing pain/harm and maximizing good.

Since we know this approach ensures the successful survival and thriving of most in our society, including the indiviual, due to little things like reciprocation and empathy.

Sarah x

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

I’d agree with that - we are capable, as a species, dependent on the conditions, of enormous achievement and great good, and enormous destruction and great bad.

So, is it your view that evil is objective, just like good is objective, and just as good is objective because it comes from God, evil is objective because it comes from the Devil?

But this objective evil can only come from the Devil, when God allows it to?

Sarah x

I do not know how much % is the Devil and how does God allow him to be here. I only remember the sentence of my teacher of ethics: “There is more evil in the world than the evil man does!” He was referring to the Holocaust. When we see who did it, normal people (as described by those who captured them, like the Israelis who captured Eichmann), we realize that man only could not do the kind of evil it was done in WW II.

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

Some one else here gace that as an example of the day to day ‘‘evil’’ we are capable of, in that, we don’t always do the things we want to - such as holding the door for some one, and do the things we don’t want to do - such as being too lazy to help someone out.

I’m not, others brought him up, I didn’t.

Since I don’t believe in Heaven or Hell, that makes it impossible for me to believe there is a Saint in Heaven call St. Paul

Yes, I’m quite sure I don’t know.

I don’t refuse to answer questions. I was simply asking you to clarify what you meant by evil.

There’s no such thing as ‘‘evil’’ that exists as an entity, to me anyhow.

People do bad things, for any number of complicated reasons, ranging from personal ambition and lack of empathy for others, through to megalomaniacal political ambition, to desperation caused by natural disasters to everything in beteween.

It’s simply not possible to answer in a paragraph or two. The factors above coupled with mental health issues, family conditioning, education, job opportunities, the society people are in and how it’s functioning and so on have lead to millions of studies and books on the subject.

The simplest answer to give you is for me, it has nothing to do with God or the Devil.

There’s no contradiciton there

You subscribe to the idea we are all broken, sinful people. Therefor you’re admitting you’re sinful and evil.

However, I actually don’t know whether you are or not

Sarah x

1. OK;
2. So you do not believe Heaven exist. So it does not exist. True?
3. Believe me: I am also , let’s say, 30% evil (more or less ) Maybe I am giving too much good to me, but, If you do not mind …
4. Peter - Why do you answer a question with a question? Mary - why do you ask that? You tend to ask questions with a question. It is a good tactic to gain time.
5. The is physical evil (disease and death), psychological evil (mental disease) and moral evil (the best answer for me was what was done in Holocaust: senseless, meaningless actions to hurt your fellow men). I am referring above all to the moral evil.
6. Again: it is not because you do not know that it is not. You simply do not know. But you said that I live a sinless life! Well, for get about it. Say, if you want, what you want.

 

[clem456]

In a sentence, because I’m about to leave - rational assessment of actions and consequences with the view to minimizing pain/harm and maximizing good.

Since we know this approach ensures the successful survival and thriving of most in our society, including the indiviual, due to little things like reciprocation and empathy.

Sarah x

How do you know what pain and harm are, or what the good is? How do you know? Your answer might be that experience will tell you, or the experiences of others will tell you, but obviously you have committed at least some evil, and others have committed some (a lot) of evil over the course of history. Many people would say their actions are good when large parts of society would disagree and call them evil. So your expereinces and the experiences of others are not true infallible indications of what the good is.
Jeffery Dahmer may have thought it was good to kill and eat others. Stalin may have thought it was good to confiscate private property and control population with mass murder. Many would agree with him. Others disagree. So, how do **you know **what the good is? If it’s your judgement call, then we have billions of moral standards, and there is no such thing as “the good”, there is only self satisfaction.

 

[atheistgirl]

Jeffery Dahmer may have thought it was good to kill and eat others. Stalin may have thought it was good to confiscate private property and control population with mass murder. Many would agree with him. Others disagree. So, how do **you know **what the good is? If it’s your judgement call, then we have billions of moral standards, and there is no such thing as “the good”, there is only self satisfaction.

Yep, I see the result on the actions of myself and others and can rationalize if something is good or not for the individual and overidingly for the good of the society we must all live and survive and prosper in.

So I don’t want to pay the amount of tax I have to pay. I could so easily take measures to avoid at least some of my tax burden. Individually this doesn’t suit me, but I can see the benefits to society when all tax payers pay their due.

There is indeed billions of moral standards - the Catholics that contracept, or have sex before marriage don’t all feel they’re being immoral and I’m sure many rationalize this to themselves. We all have our own personal standards, if we’re not robots. We have a mind, and can think for ourselves.

But the over all good is more or less enshrined in law, begrudginly agreed by most and applicable to everyone and comes from the thousands of years of our experimentation with that’s a fair balance between the best interests of the individual and the best interests of society.

Imposing a Deity who is ‘‘Good’’ and His standards are the gold standard is just silly - to me.

Because we only have human interpretation of that this God wants, as good.

Look at the OT.

The people back then had no problem with child sacrifice, slavery, multiple wives, keeping concubines, underage sex, or genocide - and funnily enough, neither did their God

As we evolved and developed our codes of living together, guess what - suddenly salvery isn’t ok any more, taking multiple wives isn’t ok any more, and we have rules of engagement in war that if abused can lead to trials for war crimes and genocide.

Something the God of the OT didn’t shout too loundly about, as far as I can see.

Sarah x

 

[ncrespi]

To put it simply, good/bad is partly innate, partly upbringing. You can raise children in violent or peaceful environments, but not all will emerge with the same results.

My reply is not nearly as eloquent as others on here, but you get t he gist of it

 

[clem456]

Yep, I see the result on the actions of myself and others and can rationalize if something is good or not for the individual and overidingly for the good of the society we must all live and survive and prosper in.

So I don’t want to pay the amount of tax I have to pay. I could so easily take measures to avoid at least some of my tax burden. Individually this doesn’t suit me, but I can see the benefits to society when all tax payers pay their due.

There is indeed billions of moral standards - the Catholics that contracept, or have sex before marriage don’t all feel they’re being immoral and I’m sure many rationalize this to themselves. We all have our own personal standards, if we’re not robots. We have a mind, and can think for ourselves.

But the over all good is more or less enshrined in law, begrudginly agreed by most and applicable to everyone and comes from the thousands of years of our experimentation with that’s a fair balance between the best interests of the individual and the best interests of society.

Imposing a Deity who is ‘‘Good’’ and His standards are the gold standard is just silly - to me.

Because we only have human interpretation of that this God wants, as good.

Look at the OT.

The people back then had no problem with child sacrifice, slavery, multiple wives, keeping concubines, underage sex, or genocide - and funnily enough, neither did their God

As we evolved and developed our codes of living together, guess what - suddenly salvery isn’t ok any more, taking multiple wives isn’t ok any more, and we have rules of engagement in war that if abused can lead to trials for war crimes and genocide.

Something the God of the OT didn’t shout too loundly about, as far as I can see.

Sarah x

That’s very nice, but avoids the question I asked…
How do -YOU KNOW-…what is good?
How do you know your good is the good, when someone else says no, my good is the good?
Or are all claims at goodness equally meritable?
At one time women were considered to be property over most of the world. Apparently that definition of good is ok with you?

 

[atheistgirl]

That’s very nice, but avoids the question I asked…
How do -YOU KNOW-…what is good?

There is cleary some kind of communication breakdown going on here, because I’ve answered this several time.

I rationalize my actions, and their consequences, in the framework of the law and societies didcated accepted behavior, with the view to maximizing good and minimizing harm.

How do you know your good is the good, when someone else says no, my good is the good?

Oh for goodness sake.

I rationalize the information - if they put up a convincing argument as to why I ought to not do something, such as eating too much chocolate for the good of my health, then if they make their case and I’m a rational being, I will attempt to alter my behavior!

Or are all claims at goodness equally meritable?

Once again, you think about it, work it out, and come to a rational conclusion based on the evidence.

At one time women were considered to be property over most of the world. Apparently that definition of good is ok with you?

Are you just trolling now.

Women fought and continue to fight for equality.

No it’s not apparently ok with me women being treated as chattle is ok with me when so many great brave women gave up their lives in the fight for equality - women who opened the eyes of other women to not accept the male dominated condescention and patronization thrown at them and taught women they were not second class citizens or mens property. Women who inspired other women to stand up and say enough is enough!

Women weren’t given their rights - women had to fight for them and wrest them from the hands of clinging males.

But hey, apparently that view was just fine with most Church groups throughout history, and still is in places - and who’s the dominant sex in Church - that’s right - men!

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

At one time women were considered to be property over most of the world. Apparently that definition of good is ok with you?

Indeed. And it is thanks to the Christian ethos that this paradigm has changed.

It is interesting to note that Christianity had so many female converts in its earliest centuries. Some anti-Christian writers from the early years of the Church used to put down Christianity by reminding their readers about how the Christian Church was so full of poor people and women.

I think that speaks to the dignity that Jesus gave to those who were on the margins of society at that time - namely the poor and women—Bryan Jones, faculty, Kenrick Seminary, Paul VI class

 

[dcingoranelli]

This topic, and the posts on it so far, illustrate the pros and the cons of this site. On the plus side, there are numerous individuals with a passionate belief about the issue and some interesting and good posts. On the other hand, all of us so far appear to be lay people, so these posts simply are opinions, some of which may be close to correct in terms of church teaching, and some of which would likely be way out there. Consequently, unless someone with apologetics training and a great knowledge of RC theology is opining on the matter, the person who asked the question still isn’t going to get a definitive response. Just my two-bits–I could be wrong and often am…

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Of course we’re not.

Is the essential human nature of a new born baby evil?

Is the essential human nature of a person born with profound mental retardation evil?

Their human nature is the same as our human nature.

Many factors in our life can conspire to make us perform evil acts, but we are not evil by nature.

Sarah x

An excellent response and one the Pope would approve of ( not that you would relish that).

I’m not going to pick at your comments in the posts below but you do jump to conclusions when speaking of the actions of God. Just an example, God did object and strongly to the extremely bad behavior of his people in the O.T. and He punished them for it and when they rejected his Son he destroyed Jerusalem ( 70 a.d by the Romans).