Are Protestants going to Heaven?

[icxc_nika]

How will our protestant friends get better if they have no spiritual medicine?

Perhaps through prayer… it is after all our most powerful tool to help them.

May God have mercy on all of us.

 

[Church_Militant]

How will our protestant friends get better if they have no spiritual medicine?

Perhaps through prayer… it is after all our most powerful tool to help them.

May God have mercy on all of us.

 

[Revelation13_16]

This I know right well…yet does that make them correct any more than the inverse opinion from Catholics?

Ah But Vatican II dismissed Feenyism, and you said Protestants can make it to heaven.

Therefore this is an obvious advantage to Protestantism.

Of course not…Fallacious reasoning. Are all facts in in your investigation of the Catholic faith? If not then it is yet too soon to say. Have you prayed and put your willing heart on the altar before the Holy spirit and just like Our Lord prayed, “Not my will but thine be done”?

 

[Church_Militant]

Ah But Vatican II dismissed Feenyism, and you said Protestants can make it to heaven.
Therefore this is an obvious advantage to Protestantism.

Only in fallacious thinking Rev. Besides… this is not a game this is eternal life. My point is that you are right to keep digging with an open mind and heart. The Holy Spirit’ll do the rest.

I am not feenyist. Also you are (again) confusing a supposed change of doctrine (which did not happen) with a development of doctrine (which can and did occur.) they develop as we grow in grace and understanding of God. Not only can they be better understood, they should.

I say that every night.

I went to a Catholic church today, bowed my head, said the Lord’s prayer, and asked that he guides me to the truth.

And I remember you in prayer as well in this very thing. Since we have agreed together in prayer that the Holy Spirit will guide you, I consider it a done deal. Now all i do is watch in prayer and wait for the Holy Spirit to bring you along.

What more can I do apart from study?

And pray of course, but you are already doing that.

1. There are many things anti-catholics say the Catholic church has added.

and have their allegations proved true to date? No they have not. Will they ever? No they will not.

1. You say the Holy Spirit gives you wisdom, but what about me? Doesn’t it give me wisdom?

I cannot really speak to that. I only know you from your posts here and you are perfectly capable of rejecting revealed truth for some reason. That could well put your soul in jeopardy. What does the Word of God say? To whom much is given, much is required. This is one way that I know that teh Holy Spirit will deal with you.

Or because I’m a protestant, maybe I don’t have the Holy Spirit? (if so )

It’s possible, though one who is seeking to do God’s will will always find graces for that journey always moving you to do His will.

See, this is one catholic claim against protestants, they say if they have the Holy Spirit they should all reach the same conclusions, but they don’t, so logically they don’t have it, and aren’t saved.

See here you mess up by making an extreme assessment. There is another possibility is there not? That protestants are actually carnal in their thinking and theology and tho they may have the Holy Spirit w/in them they are not functioning as filled by Him. I know from my life as an protestant that this is also a teaching that most of them hold.

Personally I do not seek to merely enter the kingdom of heaven, nor am I interested in some kind of minimum requirement.

This logic makes Feenyism correct, personally I think Vatican II has gone Politically Correct, the Catholic church has always understood that there is no salvation unless you are subject to the Roman pontiff. (Boniface XVIII said that)

Don’t talk crazy…again…VII changed nothing and it most definitely was not about political correctness else we would be okaying abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, same sex marriages, artificial birth control, women clergy and patting guys like you on the head and telling you that it’s okay… you don’t have to keep seeking the fullness of truth. But that is not the Catholic message. I believe that every n-C that I share my faith with is put there by the Holy Spirit for the express purpose of calling them into the Catholic faith. That includes you.

But, what the church ‘binds’, so if Vatican II says there’s hope for Protestants, Jesus must honor. (because it’s his words through the Pope right?)

This is error…you oversimplify and misconstrue Catholicism here.

That doesn’t sound good.

Then you have a serious choice headed your way.

If Protestantism is another gospel, we are in trouble.

Most definitely.

Well I have to care because I’m on the fence, half of me wants to be Catholic tomorrow, the other half doesn’t.

Who cares what you want bro…How badly do you wish to do God’s will? The price could be high, and you have no idea of it yet.

So I have to be objective and let my intellect decide. (which the Holy Spirit will guide)

Yep!
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

Of course it’s safer, I gave you my game theory example.

Ever read The Chronicles of Narnia? We are dealing here with the Lion of Judah my friend. Is He safe? Never!

If you’re asking me to give up heaven (which I’m probably going to get even if Catholicism is right) to get a ‘fuller’ version of the truth, my answer is that only a fool would do such a thing.

Another fallacy. If the Catholic Church is right (and we are!) and you study and come to that conclusion, then you have no other option because (if you are honest and I believe you are), then you literally must obey the truth that you have found. You will have to sell all and buy the field where you found the treasure or face judgment for it.

I like Catholicism, but I won’t stick my neck out (yet) for a “bit more truth” if by being a good Protestant I’m going to heaven anyway.

But you are already sticking your neck out because you have already seen that many of the oppositions that you have to the faith were either not really there or were based on bad information. As I said…this is plowing in the field and when you finally discover that treasure you have no other rational or safe option but to sell all you have and race to buy that field.
Pax tecum,

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Lets take two scenarios that would keep me a protestant, and I’d like to know what you think as an experienced Catholic, of my chances of going to heaven.

1. I don’t know if The Catholic Church is true or not, so I’d better stay a Protestant.
   Fair enough, but you should kep searching as it would be hard to think of any Protestant Denom as the Church that Chirst establised
2. I believe The Catholic Church was the church founded by Christ, but that subsequently along the way has become corrupt and thus I can’t swear allegience to her today, so I’d better stay a Protestant.
   Well now you may have an issue. Christ promised his protection of the Church in Matthew 16, so tto say the Church is the one that Chirst founded but it is now corrupt is to essentially say that Christ has not remained faithful
   Allow me to clarify these points.

Point 1) I’m guessing is the likeliest outcome of my research if I don’t become a Catholic. It seems hard to discern whether she is or isn’t the true church, because apparently in the early centuries it was the eastern Orthodox church that had the most councils and influence. (correct me if I’m wrong)

Point 2) is a real concern of mine.

I might find out “yes, I believe Catholicism does have a strong link to Jesus” but then I look at Benedict XVI and I’m not sure I trust him. (no offence guys, just being honest)

So, I can’t reject the Papacy, I can’t be a ‘cafeteria catholic’ and I can’t in good conscience swear allegience to the pope when I know in my heart I have no intention of listening to him. (that makes me an imposter)
I think you have to separate the Church as the Bride of Christ from the man Bendict XVI. Popes come and go but the Church and her teachings never change. BTW I was a member of The Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger fan club and an a HUGH supporter of B16
As you can see, it’s a very difficult situation I’m in, I don’t want to go to hell.

Warm Regards,
Rev13_16

Lastly, I want to address some flawed logic in the “keys to the Kingdom” argument. Yes he gave Peter the keys, but this is where the charism of infalliblity comes in. The protection of the Holy Spirit will not allow something to be bound that is evil or wrong (How could God ever be bound by something evil or false). So while yes the church ahs the power to bind and loose, we also have the confidence that when she does it, Heaven and our Lord are in full support.

God Bless,

 

[Revelation13_16]

Only in fallacious thinking Rev. Besides… this is not a game this is eternal life.

Life is a game, you’re judged on how well you play.

I am not feenyist. Also you are (again) confusing a supposed change of doctrine (which did not happen) with a development of doctrine (which can and did occur.) they develop as we grow in grace and understanding of God. Not only can they be better understood, they should.

C’mon CM, you’re being narrow minded here.

Your catholic, you’re convinced it’s the truth, but so are muslims convinced Islam is the truth. Both of you can’t understand why I just don’t ‘submit’ and ‘see the light’.

Why?

Because I have a brain, I chose to be a Christian not out of emotion but because I believed it was the truth.

I’m not going to check my brain at the door and fall on my knees and say “O I have seen the truth!”.

Well … maybe if I see an apparition of Mary.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Ever read The Chronicles of Narnia? We are dealing here with the Lion of Judah my friend. Is He safe? Never!

Never read it.

Another fallacy. If the Catholic Church is right (and we are!) and you study and come to that conclusion, then you have no other option because (if you are honest and I believe you are), then you literally must obey the truth that you have found. You will have to sell all and buy the field where you found the treasure or face judgment for it.

I totally agree.

We’re no where near there yet though.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Fair enough, but you should kep searching as it would be hard to think of any Protestant Denom as the Church that Chirst establised

I’ll still search, definately.

But Protestants believe “the church” is every believer in Christ and not an institution.

My job is to find out if that’s true or not.

Well now you may have an issue. Christ promised his protection of the Church in Matthew 16, so tto say the Church is the one that Chirst founded but it is now corrupt is to essentially say that Christ has not remained faithful

That’s what I said though.

When the pope ‘binds’ something, it’s really God doing it through him.

Do I misunderstand the keys?

God Bless,
Rev

 

[kaycee]

Ever read The Chronicles of Narnia? We are dealing here with the Lion of Judah my friend. Is He safe? **Never!**Another fallacy. If the Catholic Church is right (and we are!) and you study and come to that conclusion, then you have no other option because (if you are honest and I believe you are), then you literally must obey the truth that you have found. You will have to sell all and buy the field where you found the treasure or face judgment for it.But you are already sticking your neck out because you have already seen that many of the oppositions that you have to the faith were either not really there or were based on bad information. As I said…this is plowing in the field and when you finally discover that treasure you have no other rational or safe option but to sell all you have and race to buy that field.
Pax tecum,

Are all who are baptized and attend the RCC going to heaven?

Why would someone trade salvation thru Faith for salvation by sacramental works?

V2 grants us the same possibility of salvation! Unless you dont believe V2 is infallible.

 

[icxc_nika]

I can’t beleive how much rationalization is used by the part of our dear friend Rev.

Do you honestly believe that you are going to find loopholes and cracks in the system in order to crawl your way up to heaven?

Ther fact that you have an OPPROTUNITY to enter into the True Church is God’s mercy to you.

Protestants have created their own folk lore religions, using Christ as their chief masquerade.

This is evident in your rational. To even presume that you have salvation is boastful and prideful at best. To presume that you will enter eternal life because you are woefully ignorant of the truth is to make a mockery of God’s Grace.

To then also use the argument hat Muslims also beleive they have the truth is comparing apples to hand grenades. It’s really not worthy of a response.

Everyone here i’m sure wishes you the best and will pray for you. But do yourself a favor and dump all the rationalization… it is the key tool for the protestants… pick up a book on some of the early church ascetics and stop using your own mind to guide you. ( i’m sure you would not agree with this point… but you clearly are)

 

[E.E.N.S]

kaycee:

Are all who are baptized and attend the RCC going to heaven?.

No. But having access to the sacraments is a HUGE help that Christ gave to His Church for our salvation.

kaycee:

Why would someone trade salvation thru Faith for salvation by sacramental works?.

Salvation through grace would be more proper than salvation through faith (I assume here you mean sola fide?) And the normative method Christ uses for the distribution of grace is through the sacraments.

kaycee:

V2 grants us the same possibility of salvation! Unless you dont believe V2 is infallible.

The second Vatican council didn’t change anything, but ellaborated on the situation currently at hand. And it definitely did not say that those who do not have access to the sacraments (especially those who are in opposition to the Church) have the same possibility of salvation. No, there is a possibility, however the chances are much slimmer because of the lack of the sacraments, (for the reasons listed above.)

 

[Church_Militant]

Life is a game, you’re judged on how well you play.

Then you may be flippantly rolling the dice with your soul…

Whether doctrine changed or developed, I don’t care.

Wrong again…you do care, because that developed doctrine does not excuse you. You have already come too far to play at “invincible ignorance”.

Post-Vatican II is good for protestants, makes me happy.

According to your fallible, feel good, rationalization…which is still dead wrong. Hate it for ya.

I haven’t investigated anti-cath claims for the same reason I don’t read some pro-cath books, both are heavily biased and I don’t want to be swayed one way too early.

I can’t tell from your posts to date, and it wouldn’t matter either way since if you compare a-C propaganda with the real teachings of the Catholic Church you discover (as I did) the truth and it leads you into our most holy faith.

You seem awfully flippant about it, as if it’s some kind of game and as if you feel that minimally following Christ is enough for anyone, when in fact that is an unscriptural way of thinking. What does the New Testament say?

1. Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
2. Mark 8:34 And calling the multitude together with his disciples, he said to them: If any man will follow me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
3. Luke 9:23 And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
4. Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

There really is no such thing as “Christianity Lite”. No “minimum requirement” to get into heaven. That is just another fallacious n-C belief.

Baby steps, independent thinking.

I strongly recommend both!

No, If I reject Catholicism because I believe it’s false - I win. (invincible ignorance)

Dealt with already. Doesn’t wash…

Blame some pro-cath anti-protest posts here for my ‘extreme assessment’.

All the more reason to actually read and study what the Church teaches. The Catholic Home Study Service has 7 great courses that will help you do just that, and they don’t care whether you are Catholic or not. They are also FREE.

I just want to get into heaven, I don’t care if I’m the least, it beats hell.

Dealt with already…

Boniface XVIII said there’s no salvation if you’re not under the Roman Pontiff.

Either he was wrong, or he was right.

He’s right…you’ve come to far to play games and plead “invincible ignorance”.

V2 did pat me on the head and told me it’s ok, all I have to do is Love God, follow Christ, and be a good Protestant.

I can do that.

Keep tellin’ yourself that Rev.

C’mon CM, you’re being narrow minded here.

Your catholic, you’re convinced it’s the truth, but so are muslims convinced Islam is the truth. Both of you can’t understand why I just don’t ‘submit’ and ‘see the light’.

Why?

Because I have a brain, I chose to be a Christian not out of emotion but because I believed it was the truth.

I’m not going to check my brain at the door and fall on my knees and say “O I have seen the truth!”.

Not so…I’m being honest and upfront. I’m not responsible for Muslims nor anyone else’s errors. This is not an Islamic site. Take it up with them.

I sincerely hope that you are not following emotions, if and when you do convert it will be on the basis of the hard facts. I don’t think you have ever heard a faithful Catholic even imply (and I know you have never heard it from me!) that you should check your brain at the door to any discussion of our most holy faith. In fact I expect you to have the courage to look into these matters and get the facts and decide for yourself. But don’t try that “invincible ignorance” bunk with me, because the moment you began posting here you started down the road that ended that so-called defense.

Well … maybe if I see an apparition of Mary.

 

[Church_Militant]

Never read it.

(The Chronicles of Narnia) Perhaps you should…it’s non-Catholic as was its author. I’m referring to a passage in the 2nd book. *The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe *.

If I truly believe the Catholic Church is right, I’ll be running

to convert ASAP.

But if I’m not 100%, I’ll stay Protestant.I ask for nothing more…save honesty and effort in study.

No, my objections are swept away by your post CM.

It’s going to take mon ami.

I would hope so, and All Glory Be To God!

I totally agree.

We’re no where near there yet though.

Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

 

[Church_Militant]

Are all who are baptized and attend the RCC going to heaven?

No more so than all those in any other Christian Church.

Why would someone trade salvation thru Faith for salvation by sacramental works?

I don’t know. Why would they? Especially since this is not a accurate statement of Catholic teaching, which (as long as you have been on this forum) you should know by now. Show me an actual dogmatic statement of Catholic teaching to this effect Kaycee.

You can’t. It doesn’t exist.

V2 grants us the same possibility of salvation!

Unless you dont believe V2 is infallible.Does it? I don’t think so…Who are you to interpret Catholic teaching? I’ve refuted this sort of thinking in my posts above to Rev. Neither of you can assert '“invincible ignorance”.

It’s long past time for n-Cs (and Catholics too) to embrace the fact that the truth is in the middle between the two extremes of Nulla sallus.

 

[kaycee]

No more so than all those in any other Christian Church.I don’t know. Why would they? Especially since this is not a accurate statement of Catholic teaching, which (as long as you have been on this forum) you should know by now. Show me an actual dogmatic statement of Catholic teaching to this effect Kaycee.

You can’t. **It doesn’t exist.**Does it? I don’t think so…Who are you to interpret Catholic teaching? I’ve refuted this sort of thinking in my posts above to Rev. Neither of you can assert '“invincible ignorance”.

It’s long past time for n-Cs (and Catholics too) to embrace the fact that the truth is in the middle between the two extremes of Nulla sallus.

Sorry, I was using shorthand. Sacramental works equates to…

Maintaining a state of grace by aquiring more grace via the sacraments, penance, confesson, etc… mandatory dogmatic faith, purgatory, etc… the whole ball of wax.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Then you may be flippantly rolling the dice with your soul.

How? Because I’m studying? Is that flippant?

…Wrong again…you do care, because that developed doctrine does not excuse you. You have already come too far to play at “invincible ignorance”.

You are implying that it’s emotive, because clearly I’m not yet convinced.

You must think I’m a liar, you must think I know the Catholic Church is the truth but I choose to stay out of it.

If you think that, then I have no business discussing anything with you.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

I ask for nothing more…save honesty and effort in study.

I am.

I would hope so, and All Glory Be To God

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why not just join Jesus’ Catholic Church and live and die in a state of grace and trust in Jesus?

That’s the best way I know to make it to Heaven!

 

[Church_Militant]

I had a long post all written out to ya Rev…but never mind.
I feel like I’m wasting my time with you.