Are protestants still Christians?

[Claudius]

I want to ask the question because there has been a lot of development in protestant circles and we as Christians need to be clear about what we believe when we deal with protestants.

Please note, I am not posting here just to be able to say that protestants are by definition not Christian or that calling a protestants NonChristians is in anyway an attack because you can be a good person and perhaps even still go to heaven and not be a Christian.

Having looked at what the Catholic Church teaches about protestants, clearly I would never be one but when I deal with protestants a lot of issues come up that need to be addressed. I do not believe and indeed the Catholic Church does not teach that if someone is a protestant they are automatically a Christian or automatically a non Christian.

The Catholic Church teaches that we can call protestants serparated brothers in that we have a common baptism. However, I have meet many protestants who were never baptized because they do not believe in baptism and call it a dead work invented by man that is not in the bible. I disagree with this of course and we can easily prove them wrong using the bible but are they Christians. The mentality of a lot of people I dicuss this with is that if they are a protestant, they may not be a Catholic but at least they are a Christian. However, the Catholic Church says otherwise. Until you are baptized, you are not a Christian.

This started me thinking about what the minimum standard should be for accepting the Christianity of protestants. Clearly from Church teachings, those that are not baptized are not Christains because the word Christian has a deeper meaning then just wanting to follow Christ.

I will list here a few things that Catholic teachings and the bible have shown me to exclude some (not all) protestants from the title and honor of he word Christian.

If any protestant does not get baptized then they are not a Christian.
If any protestantd denys the divinity of Jesus, then they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that there is more then one God, they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that baptism is not a sacrement but only a symbol, they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that Catholics are not Christians, then they are not a Christian. I figure this by the fact that if you say that Catholics are not Christians but get baptized, you are getting baptized into something other then Christianity because your definition of Christianity is something different then what it should be.
If a protestant denys that Jesus died on the Cross, they are not a Chrsitian.
If a protestant denys the virgin birth, they are not a Christian.
If a protestant claims that the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon, then they are not a Christian.
If a protestant denys that Jesus is the Rock then they are not a Christian.
If a protestant says that they only need to believe that Jesus is God but do not have to live by his teachings, then they are not a Christian.

Now, I don’t imagine that many will object to some of the things that I mentioned but for others I may get a lot of objections. I state what I have stated and asked the question “are protestants still Christians” because we should all be taking this issue very seriously and not just accepting them to keep the peace. There is a reason that protestants can not take communion but Coptics, Syriacs, and Byzantines can.

Again, I did not post this to simple say that protestants are automatically not Christians or to denounce them as bad people. We need to know among ourselves how far the protestants can go before we take th title and honor of being a Christian away from them. I have heard some protestants proclaim theology that would make them no different from muslims, but they want the label of Christian. Are we bound to let them have the title and honor of being a Christian if they do not meet the minimum standard for it? What is the minimum standard anyway so that we can recongnize our true fellow Christians with whom we can come together an pray and who is not a Christian and in fact are giving a bad name to true Christians?

We need to take this seriously. It is not an attack to discover is certain protestants are true Christians or not, it actually shows a great amount of respect for them from us because we could just lump them all together with the muslims and mormons and be done with them. We don’t need to expend the energy and only do so out of love and respect for their position.

So, Are protestants still Christians?
What is the minimum standard that we are aware of for a someone to be a Christian?

 

[Publisher]

I want to ask the question because there has been a lot of development in protestant circles and we as Christians need to be clear about what we believe when we deal with protestants.

Please note, I am not posting here just to be able to say that protestants are by definition not Christian or that calling a protestants NonChristians is in anyway an attack because you can be a good person and perhaps even still go to heaven and not be a Christian.

Having looked at what the Catholic Church teaches about protestants, clearly I would never be one but when I deal with protestants a lot of issues come up that need to be addressed. I do not believe and indeed the Catholic Church does not teach that if someone is a protestant they are automatically a Christian or automatically a non Christian.

The Catholic Church teaches that we can call protestants serparated brothers in that we have a common baptism. However, I have meet many protestants who were never baptized because they do not believe in baptism and call it a dead work invented by man that is not in the bible. I disagree with this of course and we can easily prove them wrong using the bible but are they Christians. The mentality of a lot of people I dicuss this with is that if they are a protestant, they may not be a Catholic but at least they are a Christian. However, the Catholic Church says otherwise. Until you are baptized, you are not a Christian.

This started me thinking about what the minimum standard should be for accepting the Christianity of protestants. Clearly from Church teachings, those that are not baptized are not Christains because the word Christian has a deeper meaning then just wanting to follow Christ.

I will list here a few things that Catholic teachings and the bible have shown me to exclude some (not all) protestants from the title and honor of he word Christian.

**If any protestant does not get baptized then they are not a Christian. **If any protestantd denys the divinity of Jesus, then they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that there is more then one God, they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that baptism is not a sacrement but only a symbol, they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that Catholics are not Christians, then they are not a Christian. I figure this by the fact that if you say that Catholics are not Christians but get baptized, you are getting baptized into something other then Christianity because your definition of Christianity is something different then what it should be.
If a protestant denys that Jesus died on the Cross, they are not a Chrsitian.
If a protestant denys the virgin birth, they are not a Christian.
If a protestant claims that the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon, then they are not a Christian.
If a protestant denys that Jesus is the Rock then they are not a Christian.
If a protestant says that they only need to believe that Jesus is God but do not have to live by his teachings, then they are not a Christian.

Now, I don’t imagine that many will object to some of the things that I mentioned but for others I may get a lot of objections. I state what I have stated and asked the question “are protestants still Christians” because we should all be taking this issue very seriously and not just accepting them to keep the peace. There is a reason that protestants can not take communion but Coptics, Syriacs, and Byzantines can.

Again, I did not post this to simple say that protestants are automatically not Christians or to denounce them as bad people. We need to know among ourselves how far the protestants can go before we take th title and honor of being a Christian away from them. I have heard some protestants proclaim theology that would make them no different from muslims, but they want the label of Christian. Are we bound to let them have the title and honor of being a Christian if they do not meet the minimum standard for it? What is the minimum standard anyway so that we can recongnize our true fellow Christians with whom we can come together an pray and who is not a Christian and in fact are giving a bad name to true Christians?

We need to take this seriously. It is not an attack to discover is certain protestants are true Christians or not, it actually shows a great amount of respect for them from us because we could just lump them all together with the muslims and mormons and be done with them. We don’t need to expend the energy and only do so out of love and respect for their position.

So, Are protestants still Christians?
What is the minimum standard that we are aware of for a someone to be a Christian?

I am a Christian…but I do not believe that water baptism is what makes a person a Christian. The cleansing baptism of the Holy Spirit is the method we are baptized into His Body. I do believe in the One Baptism by the Spirit that joins us to the One Church, His Body.

Thankfully it is God and He alone that determines who and who is not part of the Body of Christ…I can live with that with confidence that He will be just, merciful and true.

 

[James1982]

1. If any protestant does not get baptized then they are not a Christian.
2. If any protestantd denys the divinity of Jesus, then they are not a Christian.
3. If any protestant claims that there is more then one God, they are not a Christian.
4. If any protestant claims that baptism is not a sacrement but only a symbol, they are not a Christian.
5. If any protestant claims that Catholics are not Christians, then they are not a Christian. I figure this by the fact that if you say that Catholics are not Christians but get baptized, you are getting baptized into something other then Christianity because your definition of Christianity is something different then what it should be.
6. If a protestant denys that Jesus died on the Cross, they are not a Chrsitian.
7. If a protestant denys the virgin birth, they are not a Christian.
8. If a protestant claims that the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon, then they are not a Christian.
9. If a protestant denys that Jesus is the Rock then they are not a Christian.
10. If a protestant says that they only need to believe that Jesus is God but do not have to live by his teachings, then they are not a Christian.

1. Agreed- though, I would note, that if a Catholic isn’t baptized, they wouldn’t be a Christian either.
2. Agreed
3. Agreed
4. Agreed
5. Agreed- Scriptures consistently show that Baptism is a unique event in a Christian’s life, not mere symbolism.
6. Agreed
7. Agreed
8. Disagree- they can be a Christian, but they would be engaging in hysterics to call another denomination those things, which would lead one to question whether they are not engaging in sinful behavior by slandering fellow believers. I see this as a big lack of understanding, as opposed to an outright rejection of God to the point where they could no longer be a Christian. Similar to gossiping about a fellow believer in public over private matters, and generally acting “holier than thou.” People do it every day in Churches of all types, and all should repent for it. Consistent non-repentance could mean they no longer believe, however, in which cases you could agree with the original statement.
9. Agreed
10. Disagree, but only in principle, not in practice. Faith is the ultimate barometer of whether one is saved. Good works come naturally when one has a strong faith. I suppose it is POSSIBLE that one might have true belief in his or her heart, but not show it to the outside world. But I think it would be unlikely, as we humans tend to act out on what we believe in our heart of hearts more often than not. It’s a tricky balance, though. For the majority of believers I would agree, but with reservations that there may be exceptions as we can not always know what is in a person’s heart.

FYI, I am protestant. WI Synod Lutheran.

 

[ralphinal]

1. Agreed- though, I would note, that if a Catholic isn’t baptized, they wouldn’t be a Christian either.
2. Agreed
3. Agreed
4. Agreed
5. Agreed- Scriptures consistently show that Baptism is a unique event in a Christian’s life, not mere symbolism.
6. Agreed
7. Agreed
8. Disagree- they can be a Christian, but they would be engaging in hysterics to call another denomination those things, which would lead one to question whether they are not engaging in sinful behavior by slandering fellow believers. I see this as a big lack of understanding, as opposed to an outright rejection of God to the point where they could no longer be a Christian. Similar to gossiping about a fellow believer in public over private matters, and generally acting “holier than thou.” People do it every day in Churches of all types, and all should repent for it. Consistent non-repentance could mean they no longer believe, however, in which cases you could agree with the original statement.
9. Agreed
10. Disagree, but only in principle, not in practice. Faith is the ultimate barometer of whether one is saved. Good works come naturally when one has a strong faith. I suppose it is POSSIBLE that one might have true belief in his or her heart, but not show it to the outside world. But I think it would be unlikely, as we humans tend to act out on what we believe in our heart of hearts more often than not. It’s a tricky balance, though. For the majority of believers I would agree, but with reservations that there may be exceptions as we can not always know what is in a person’s heart.

FYI, I am protestant. WI Synod Lutheran.

Excellent post. Welcome. I hope you enjoy your time on Catholic Answers:thumbsup:

 

[Evan]

If a protestant denys the virgin birth, they are not a Christian.

This seems quite out of place on the list. It is not necessary for Jesus’ entry into the world. It is appropriate, it happened, but only by faith can we know this. It seems that one could accept all the rest and deny the virgin birth, still accepting all Jesus taught and did, and still be a Christian.

The virgin birth is a sign, pointing to Jesus. It is not Jesus.
The virgin birth is a sign, pointing to the creative power of the Holy Spirit.

Only one evangelist mentions it, the OT reference is obscure at best.

I would definitely remove this one from the list.

 

[Claudius]

I see some good replys here.

Just to clarify, when I mentioned living according to the teachings of Jesus I was more refering to not doing thing that he said to not do, such as get divorced or act in violence, then to mean doing what we should but it is a very good thing to also point out the works of mercy that he calls us to. As mentioned above, not all do them but there may be circumstances that prevent it.

I mean to say that if a protestant says that you can live your life in a way that is in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus, such as being a hitman for the mafia and what not, then you are not a Christian. I would also aply this same rule to Catholics as well but that is not in the scope of the original question.

As to the virgion birth, I got that from some of the old councils and yah it does look funny on the list compared to everything else. I mentioned it because there seems to be a section of basically ani-religious people that are always using that but then claim to be Christians.

Yet, are there other things that I have not listed that would exclude someone from true Christianity? I am sure that I have not listed them all. I am not trying to simply put up a list to keep people out but all of us fellow Christians need to know what the least that is needed for someone to get in to begin with or when they still need that extra step for full conversion.

 

[NDfan]

If a protestant denys the virgin birth, they are not a Christian.

This seems quite out of place on the list. It is not necessary for Jesus’ entry into the world. It is appropriate, it happened, but only by faith can we know this. It seems that one could accept all the rest and deny the virgin birth, still accepting all Jesus taught and did, and still be a Christian.

The virgin birth is a sign, pointing to Jesus. It is not Jesus.
The virgin birth is a sign, pointing to the creative power of the Holy Spirit.

Only one evangelist mentions it, the OT reference is obscure at best.

I would definitely remove this one from the list.

Why do you say one evangelist mentions it? Luke and Matthew both mention it. Matthew outright claims it. In Luke Mary identifies herself as someone who hasn’t known a man, in other words a virgin. The Angel clearly states the Holy Spirit will overshadow her. So what other kind of birth could it be?

 

[sandusky]

Claudius:

So, Are protestants still Christians?

What is the minimum standard that we are aware of for a someone to be a Christian?

G r a c e.**Marvelous grace of our loving Lord, grace that exceeds our sin and our guilt! Yonder on Calvary’s mount outpoured—there where the blood of the Lamb was spilt.

Sin and despair, like the seawaves cold, threaten the soul with infinite loss; grace that is greater—yes, grace untold—points to the Refuge, the mighty Cross.

Dark is the stain that we cannot hide; what can avail to wash it away? Look! there is flowing a crimson tide—whiter than snow you may be today.

Marvelous, infinite, matchless grace, freely bestowed on all who believe! You that are longing to see His face, will you this moment His grace receive?

Chorus:

Grace, grace, God’s grace, grace that will pardon and cleanse within; grace, grace, God’s grace, grace that is greater than all our sin!**Silly Claudius.

 

[James1982]

I see some good replys here.

Just to clarify, when I mentioned living according to the teachings of Jesus I was more refering to not doing thing that he said to not do, such as get divorced or act in violence, then to mean doing what we should but it is a very good thing to also point out the works of mercy that he calls us to. As mentioned above, not all do them but there may be circumstances that prevent it.

I mean to say that if a protestant says that you can live your life in a way that is in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus, such as being a hitman for the mafia and what not, then you are not a Christian. I would also aply this same rule to Catholics as well but that is not in the scope of the original question.

As to the virgion birth, I got that from some of the old councils and yah it does look funny on the list compared to everything else. I mentioned it because there seems to be a section of basically ani-religious people that are always using that but then claim to be Christians.

Yet, are there other things that I have not listed that would exclude someone from true Christianity? I am sure that I have not listed them all. I am not trying to simply put up a list to keep people out but all of us fellow Christians need to know what the least that is needed for someone to get in to begin with or when they still need that extra step for full conversion.

My fault for misreading the statement. Here’s a better response:

We all do bad things for the basest reasons, the world just works that way. But we still have to try to follow the law, and when we fall short, we have to go back to God and ask forgiveness. Sometimes that entails changing the way you live. I mean, are you really sorry for how you behaved if you never change or think the way you are doing things is actually right, despite what the scriptures say?

In that vein, you’d have to question the hitman who believed but refused to try to change his life. He may never be able to do it, but he should still try.

 

[JonNC]

I want to ask the question because there has been a lot of development in protestant circles and we as Christians need to be clear about what we believe when we deal with protestants.

So, Are protestants still Christians?
What is the minimum standard that we are aware of for a someone to be a Christian?

Seems to me you could have saved yourself much time and effort had you, instead of making this list, copied and pasted the three Creeds - The Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian. Now, it may be possible to be a Christian and not believe *all *of the statements in these creeds, but they certainly cover the ground.

In addition, I was unable to find in your list the belief in the ressurection - very important!
Jon

 

[LutheranDK]

If any protestantd denys the divinity of Jesus, then they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that there is more then one God, they are not a Christian.
If a protestant denys that Jesus died on the Cross, they are not a Chrsitian.
If a protestant denys the virgin birth, they are not a Christian.
If a protestant denys that Jesus is the Rock then they are not a Christian.
If a protestant says that they only need to believe that Jesus is God but do not have to live by his teachings, then they are not a Christian.

If anyone denies any of the above - he or she is definately NOT protestant…maybe JW, Mormon, “liberal protestant” (which is a fancy word for: Idol-worshipper), etc, but definately not protestant.

 

[catholiconce]

I see some good replys here.

Just to clarify, when I mentioned living according to the teachings of Jesus I was more refering to not doing thing that he said to not do, such as get divorced or act in violence, then to mean doing what we should but it is a very good thing to also point out the works of mercy that he calls us to. As mentioned above, not all do them but there may be circumstances that prevent it.

I mean to say that if a protestant says that you can live your life in a way that is in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus, such as being a hitman for the mafia and what not, then you are not a Christian. I would also aply this same rule to Catholics as well but that is not in the scope of the original question.

As to the virgion birth, I got that from some of the old councils and yah it does look funny on the list compared to everything else. I mentioned it because there seems to be a section of basically ani-religious people that are always using that but then claim to be Christians.

Yet, are there other things that I have not listed that would exclude someone from true Christianity? I am sure that I have not listed them all. I am not trying to simply put up a list to keep people out but all of us fellow Christians need to know what the least that is needed for someone to get in to begin with or when they still need that extra step for full conversion.

First of all The word Protestant is A Catholic word used by them for them. During the Reformation period Some Christian viewed Catholic Teachings of the Chritian Church differnenly. They never have or never will Protest Christ but Rather some Catholics thought on what Jesus was teaching. YES WE ARE CHRISTIANS. We Belive in the same GOD and Lord as All Christians. Also I am not sure where the Mafia hitman bit comes from. I ways not aware Jesus spoke of Mafia Hitman to the apostles ?!? Also Why do you tie Diviorce and violence to Protestants are there no Catholic who get Diviorced ?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

G r a c e.Marvelous grace of our loving Lord, grace that exceeds our sin and our guilt! Yonder on Calvary’s mount outpoured—there where the blood of the Lamb was spilt.

Sin and despair, like the seawaves cold, threaten the soul with infinite loss; grace that is greater—yes, grace untold—points to the Refuge, the mighty Cross.

Dark is the stain that we cannot hide; what can avail to wash it away? Look! there is flowing a crimson tide—whiter than snow you may be today.

Marvelous, infinite, matchless grace, freely bestowed on all who believe! You that are longing to see His face, will you this moment His grace receive?

Chorus:

**Grace, grace, God’s grace, grace that will pardon and cleanse within; grace, grace, God’s grace, grace that is greater than all our sin!**Silly Claudius.

​

**One niggle: I don’t see any mention of grace’s freeness - were it not free, we would be done for. But it is, for us; so we aren’t. **

**This makes all church-worship,in all Churches without exception, & similar idolatries, completely irrelevant. God is the only Lord of all His gifts, so no human stewardship of them, however abusive, can alter that. ****The moment we require “standards”, we are in grave danger of making God’s grace to be grace no more. If it is not completely unconditional, it is not grace. Grace is unconditional, because God’s Love which it expresses is unconditional - human inability or incapacity or downright sinfulness are beside the point, & no Church has any right to dictate to God how He shall act. To do so is an intolerable presumption. **

 

[CreosMary]

I recall the Church making some judgments on these matters some years ago and the Mormons, JW’s and 7th day adventists were pronounced not Christian because of thier faulty concept of the Trinity…

 

[bengal_fan]

the answer to the title of this thread is … yes.

pretty easy, give me a harder one next time.

 

[catholiconce]

the answer to the title of this thread is … yes.

pretty easy, give me a harder one next time.

Exactly !!! Some of these Threads are a bit surprising !! The reason for such a question is only to stir up trouble. Kind of like the Man who started the fire then sits back and watches all the trouble he has started. Those fighting the Fire are to busy to say anything but out of the corner of their eye they see the Fire Starter. They are always one Fire behind but some day they will catch him. Always Know someone is always watching. Two Know who the real Fire starter is God Above and the Fire starter Himself

 

[GregoryPalamas]

If a protestant denys the virgin birth, they are not a Christian.

This seems quite out of place on the list. It is not necessary for Jesus’ entry into the world. It is appropriate, it happened, but only by faith can we know this. It seems that one could accept all the rest and deny the virgin birth, still accepting all Jesus taught and did, and still be a Christian.

The virgin birth is a sign, pointing to Jesus. It is not Jesus.
The virgin birth is a sign, pointing to the creative power of the Holy Spirit.

Only one evangelist mentions it, the OT reference is obscure at best.

I would definitely remove this one from the list.

Could Jesus be in anyway not born of a Virgin and be 1. holy and 2. fulfill Scripture?

CDL

 

[wisdomseeker]

Are they christians? i dont know. what do you think? are we christians just because we confess the name of Jesus Christ or christians are those who actually believe what Jesus said and obey what command us to do?

The decline of catholicism is most due to the spread of protestantism with its easy way out of preaching. i remember that in Brasil years ago catholics were 89% of population, now is down to 62 or 68%. protestants were very limited. in the nineties american protestants sneak into the country with their charities pretext and spread throughtout. now they have these mega churches taking all the money they can get their hands on from the poorst of the poorest. why? because the catholic church says one thing, protestants says another. catholic church we need confession, they say we dont need confession. CC says we need a pope, protestants says we dont need authority. CC says the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of our Lord, protestants say not true. therefore, people are very confused but since we know who we are and the easy it is for us the better it is many will take the lie before the Truth. they are very successfull with the young generation. and that is why we are in such a mess right now in our religious believes. as long as we have this opposition it is difficult for catholics to stay true to their faith or even know where the truth is. It is a terrible burden for CC. as for myself i offer no support for those who are against what we believe as the truth and are leading others away from the truth and trying to destroy the CC. I love them for the Lord commanded that we love our enemies, but they are against us and not for us.

God is Mighty, in deed.

I just thought i should throw this in here.

 

[catholiconce]

Are they christians? i dont know. what do you think? are we christians just because we confess the name of Jesus Christ or christians are those who actually believe what Jesus said and obey what command us to do?

The decline of catholicism is most due to the spread of protestantism with its easy way out of preaching. i remember that in Brasil years ago catholics were 89% of population, now is down to 62 or 68%. protestants were very limited. in the nineties american protestants sneak into the country with their charities pretext and spread throughtout. now they have these mega churches taking all the money they can get their hands on from the poorst of the poorest. why? because the catholic church says one thing, protestants says another. catholic church we need confession, they say we dont need confession. CC says we need a pope, protestants says we dont need authority. CC says the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of our Lord, protestants say not true. therefore, people are very confused but since we know who we are and the easy it is for us the better it is many will take the lie before the Truth. they are very successfull with the young generation. and that is why we are in such a mess right now in our religious believes. as long as we have this opposition it is difficult for catholics to stay true to their faith or even know where the truth is. It is a terrible burden for CC. as for myself i offer no support for those who are against what we believe as the truth and are leading others away from the truth and trying to destroy the CC. I love them for the Lord commanded that we love our enemies, but they are against us and not for us.

God is Mighty, in deed.

I just thought i should throw this in here.

DO NOT lump all protestants together. You are making genaralized statments based on your limited experiece.of fellow christians Yes protestants are Christians As they believe in Jesus Christ just as Catholic Christian do. As for the Eucharist being the Body and Blood of Christ as Lutherans we do believe the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ and He is present in the Eucharist. I could expand on that but you would just respond with more of the same. Fact of the matter is your attacks will not change my Faith. We do as Jesus Comanded however from your verbal attacks of your Fellow Christians I wonder if you do as Jesus comanded you to do.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Are they christians? i dont know. what do you think? are we christians just because we confess the name of Jesus Christ or christians are those who actually believe what Jesus said and obey what command us to do?

The decline of catholicism is most due to the spread of protestantism with its easy way out of preaching. i remember that in Brasil years ago catholics were 89% of population, now is down to 62 or 68%. protestants were very limited. in the nineties american protestants sneak into the country with their charities pretext and spread throughtout. now they have these mega churches taking all the money they can get their hands on from the poorst of the poorest. why? because the catholic church says one thing, protestants says another. catholic church we need confession, they say we dont need confession. CC says we need a pope, protestants says we dont need authority. CC says the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of our Lord, protestants say not true.

**As to the Eucharist, this is a matter of what people mean by the words they use, so the issue is not as clear-cut as it may seem. Annoying maybe, but there it is. **​

therefore, people are very confused but since we know who we are and the easy it is for us the better it is many will take the lie before the Truth. they are very successfull with the young generation. and that is why we are in such a mess right now in our religious believes. as long as we have this opposition it is difficult for catholics to stay true to their faith or even know where the truth is. It is a terrible burden for CC. as for myself i offer no support for those who are against what we believe as the truth and are leading others away from the truth and trying to destroy the CC. I love them for the Lord commanded that we love our enemies, but they are against us and not for us.

God is Mighty, in deed.

I just thought i should throw this in here.

What Protestants say authority in the Church is not needed ? Anglicans, Calvinists, Lutherans all have church authority in some form or other. Congregationalism has church order in worship, & that is a form of authority. The Sally Army certainly has authority - how else could it have an officer called “General” ?​

**If “authority” is being defined to mean “authority as understood in the CC” - that is a different matter: Catholicism is not presbyterian, so if authority were to be understood in that sense, it might be said that Presbyterians & Calvinists “don’t have authority”: but that leaves Lutherans & Anglicans unaccounted-for - they are both episcopal in Church government, like the CC. In short, there are structures in all ****these Churches ****which in various ways mediate authority within them & do so as expressions of the Church polity of each. **

**ISTM relatively unimportant whether someone is for the CC or not, & far more important that Jesus Christ should be preached & made known. And unfortunately, the CC (in this case) is well able to neglect her commission to do this. The work is more important than the structures & identity of the people doing it. Granted, there is the issue of how a or the or any Church is theologically & doctrinally related to the proclamation of the Gospel - to what extent & in what ways is a or ****the Church part of the proclamation ? Even so, if the Church ceased to exist, God could raise Himself a People to do His work even from ****the stones. **

Some of Jesus’ contemporaries seem to have thought their form of religion was indispensable - it wasn’t. Does the Church or any** particular expression of it have the ****security to say that it is indispensable 8) ? **