Are Some People Afraid Of The Latin Mass?

[Dauphin]

What you’re not grasping, though, is that the EF is not protected from abuse merely by being the EF; the reason you’ll almost never see a liturgical abuse at a Tridentine Mass is that a special effort has to be made to say it and to attend it. A priest would have to be out of his mind to go out of his way to get permission to say a Tridentine Mass, and then say it badly.

The OF does not have that protection; its easy for a lazy priest to change the words around, or drop this or that. Right now, the Tridentine Mass is protected because its not easy to say. If it became the default again, though, you’d see abuses appearing, because people are lazy. They might not be the same kind of abuses, but they’d be abuses nonetheless.

Liturgical abuse is not a problem inherent to the OF, and there is nothing about the EF that protects it from abuses.

Actually, I would argue that there are certain things about the Traditional Latin Mass which make it less susceptible to abuse. The ad orientem posture removes the temptation for showmanship. The Latin language makes changes to the prayers largely pointless, since they wouldn’t likely be immediately picked up on by the congregation. Changes in the Roman Canon especially wouldn’t be noticed, since it’s silent. The reason priests randomly change the prayers of the Mass is to show off or “make the prayers more relevant to our present faith-journey”. Because of the sacred language, TLM isn’t open to this sort of thing.

Even if the priest were to introduce certain abuses (wrong vestments or altar arrangement, praying quickly and inattentively), they’re always of a more mild character since the substance of the Mass is left untouched.

Even if the EF were as susceptible to abuse as the OF, the culture which surrounds it in the present day protects it. The very fact that the Mass is so reliable and abuse-free makes it an ideal safe haven from the post-conciliar storm.

 

[Jo_Benedict]

Please stay on-topic and maintain charity. Thanks.

 

[Gertabelle]

Some people are afraid of the dark. Some are afraid of mice or spiders or other crawly critters. Some are afraid of intimacy. And some people are afraid of change. Some people are afraid of the Latin mass. Others are afraid of the OF.

My dad left the Church, he said, when the mass was changed to the NO. He returned to the faith some years before his death, when he encountered major health issues. If the Holy Father required all masses to now be the EF, some people would probably leave the Church because of that, and not return until scared by death’s approach, or never return at all.

Personally, I don’t want a return to the EF. Although I’ve studied a little Latin, I’d still rather pray in my native tongue. If we want the form of the Latin mass, but with the English text, I’m great with that. But even though I can read Latin, and translate a little in my head, I hardly think that’s going to be the same as full understanding of the prayers I’m saying. I hear them saying parts in Latin on EWTN, and all I can do is observe or concentrate hard on the English words.

In short (too late!), I don’t fear the Latin mass, but I resent being pushed out of the prayers because of a language difference.

Just my two cents.
Gert

 

[I_Believe]

Some people are afraid of the dark. Some are afraid of mice or spiders or other crawly critters. Some are afraid of intimacy. And some people are afraid of change. Some people are afraid of the Latin mass. Others are afraid of the OF.

My dad left the Church, he said, when the mass was changed to the NO. He returned to the faith some years before his death, when he encountered major health issues. If the Holy Father required all masses to now be the EF, some people would probably leave the Church because of that, and not return until scared by death’s approach, or never return at all.

Personally, I don’t want a return to the EF. Although I’ve studied a little Latin, I’d still rather pray in my native tongue. If we want the form of the Latin mass, but with the English text, I’m great with that. But even though I can read Latin, and translate a little in my head, I hardly think that’s going to be the same as full understanding of the prayers I’m saying. I hear them saying parts in Latin on EWTN, and all I can do is observe or concentrate hard on the English words.

In short (too late!), I don’t fear the Latin mass, but I resent being pushed out of the prayers because of a language difference.

Just my two cents.
Gert

Hi Gert, I think you may not know that there are missals that have the english translation right next to the latin.

Also, a good missal has the rubrics right there so you can follow along and know exactly what part of the Mass is being prayed.

The TLM does not “push” the laity out of the Mass. The laity is encouraged to pray the Mass with the priest and the missal allows us to do just that.

The only thing that would keep one from learning the TLM is lack of effort.

What frustrates me is that those who have never been to a TLM come here and tell us why they don’t prefer it. It would be the same as if I were to go to a message board and enter a discussion about Scotch Whiskey, and try to convince everyone Ky Straight Bourbon is better. In my case it would be silly, because I’ve never had a drink of Scotch in my life.

 

[Lujack]

Actually, I would argue that there are certain things about the Traditional Latin Mass which make it less susceptible to abuse. The ad orientem posture removes the temptation for showmanship. The Latin language makes changes to the prayers largely pointless, since they wouldn’t likely be immediately picked up on by the congregation. Changes in the Roman Canon especially wouldn’t be noticed, since it’s silent. The reason priests randomly change the prayers of the Mass is to show off or “make the prayers more relevant to our present faith-journey”. Because of the sacred language, TLM isn’t open to this sort of thing.

That’s why I said that the abuses would be of a different kind. Particularly, they’d likely be out of laziness. Even though the NO is open to certain abuses of showmanship, it can also be incredibly beautiful. When its said properly (and I’m more optimistic about how common this is than you are, I think; I suspect we’ve had different experiences), it really is wonderful.

I also have to question the reference to Latin as the sacred language. Even if Latin is the language of the Church, there isn’t anything sacred about it. It is just the language the Church has chosen to use. If I’m missing some Church teaching about Latin being sacred in some way, please let me know.

Even if the priest were to introduce certain abuses (wrong vestments or altar arrangement, praying quickly and inattentively), they’re always of a more mild character since the substance of the Mass is left untouched.

And if the priests cuts out half the Roman Canon or something like that, does that leave the substance of the Mass untouched?

Even if the EF were as susceptible to abuse as the OF, the culture which surrounds it in the present day protects it. The very fact that the Mass is so reliable and abuse-free makes it an ideal safe haven from the post-conciliar storm.

Well, yes. The fact that a special effort needs to be made to celebrate does protect it. If the OF was dropped, though, and the EF was made the OF again, then that special protection would no longer exist.

 

[LilyM]

Hi Gert, I think you may not know that there are missals that have the english translation right next to the latin.

Also, a good missal has the rubrics right there so you can follow along and know exactly what part of the Mass is being prayed.

The TLM does not “push” the laity out of the Mass. The laity is encouraged to pray the Mass with the priest and the missal allows us to do just that.

The only thing that would keep one from learning the TLM is lack of effort.

What frustrates me is that those who have never been to a TLM come here and tell us why they don’t prefer it. It would be the same as if I were to go to a message board and enter a discussion about Scotch Whiskey, and try to convince everyone Ky Straight Bourbon is better. In my case it would be silly, because I’ve never had a drink of Scotch in my life.

But no-one’s saying the OF is better, they’re just saying it’s the one they want to attend, and telling you what THEY like about it. Big difference. And it is fine to have a preference of that kind and express it.

If I find a brand of scotch that I really like why SHOULD I have to try any other brand before being permitted to say that I like my brand and want to stick with it? And why should I have to try other brands before I’m permitted to tell those who like other brands exactly WHY I like mine?

And why should you assume that everyone who hasn’t tried YOUR favourite brand would love it if they did? Which is the distinct vibe I get in the Traditional forum. We’re individuals, some might, most won’t because they already have their favourite ‘brand’ and tastes tend not to change.

 

[Cat]

Well, you were online when I replied with a simple question, and then you logged off. Perhaps you didn’t see my reply.

No, I don’t think it’s harsh at all when you describe the signature Liturgy of Holy Mother Church as theatrical. Especially knowing you are using the OF as a comparison.

So, rubrics are “movements”, vestments are “costumes”, the Ordinary and it’s rubrics are “script”, Sacred Polyphony and Gregorian Chant are “professional” performance “not sung anywhere else”, the Sanctuary is an “elaborate set”, servers, deacons, and acolytes are “characters”, the Sanctuary and High Altar are a “stage”, and the flock is an “audience”.

I don’t have a clue what you mean by “lighting”. Candles ? Hmm, OF Masses have them.

I really don’t see your point. Does your local parish priest follow the Ordinary ? You know, the “script” you speak of ? How about rubrics ? Does he perform the Washing of the Hands in various areas of the Sanctuary at random, or sometimes crawl under the table altar to do the Consecration, just to mix it up so as not to give the impression of a “choreographed” Liturgy ?

How about the servers and EMHC ? Does he use them ? If so, why are they not described as "characters " ? Simply because it happens to be the Liturgy you prefer ?

Is there a maximum level of ornamentation allowed in the Novus Ordo church, after which point it becomes too catholic ?

Cat, I’m not trying to make you look foolish, but that last post of yours wreaks of ignorance.

Our OF Masses are quite reverent and orthodox. Our bishop is diligent about correcting abuses, but they don’t creep in very often.

We do use EMHCs and female altar servers, but this is allowed by the Church if the bishop OKs it, which our does. Our parish does nine Masses on Sunday, with all but the 6:30 AM fairly packed. Three priests, and they are kept busy all day with these Masses, so the EMHCs are needed.

Our bishops have made the TLM available in our diocese since the mid 1980s.

Why do you think I’m ignorant. I fully and completely understand that the Mass is NOT theater. I stated that in my posts. I wasn’t comparing the TLM to the OF of the Mass, which I also consider to be theatrical. I was comparing both Masses to theater. There are simliarities.

It seems that you and others are insulted when I compare the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to theater, and I don’t understand why. To me, theater is a high art form that is worthy of respect and honor. I do not intend any insult, but only to point out the simliarities. Again, I am fully and complete aware that the Mass is NOT theater–it is REAL–a very real re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary, and we are permitted to be present through the miracle of the Mass.

My daughter, a theater professional and recent convert to Catholicism, said (before becoming Catholic) that the Catholic Mass is real, and everything else (referring to Protestant “worship services”) is a theatrical pageant. Think about that. It’s the truth. This is one of the reasons she became Catholic–because she recognized that the Mass is real life, and all the rest of the “church services” are theater.

But…there are simliarities.

 

[Dauphin]

I also have to question the reference to Latin as the sacred language. Even if Latin is the language of the Church, there isn’t anything sacred about it. It is just the language the Church has chosen to use. If I’m missing some Church teaching about Latin being sacred in some way, please let me know.

I mean only that the language sets the Mass apart from a typical, profane event or a simple prayer meeting.

And if the priests cuts out half the Roman Canon or something like that, does that leave the substance of the Mass untouched?

I addressed that in my first paragraph. What reason would the priest have to do this, if no one would notice him? Priests do this sort of thing for attention, or because of some perceived need of the faithful. With a silent Canon, these difficulties disappear. The faithful assume that the proper prayers are being said, and unite themselves to the intentions they express.

There’s simply no temptation for the priest to improvise.

Well, yes. The fact that a special effort needs to be made to celebrate does protect it. If the OF was dropped, though, and the EF was made the OF again, then that special protection would no longer exist.

I still maintain that there are certain things in the EF that make it less open to abuse than the Pauline Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

I wasn’t comparing the TLM to the OF of the Mass, which I also consider to be theatrical. I was comparing both Masses to theater. There are simliarities.

Cat - thank you for clarifying your thoughts on this. The other post came across, at least to me, as if you thought only the TLM was “theatrical” and that can push some sensitive buttons when something like that is construed that one mass is less spiritual than the other.

It seems that you and others are insulted when I compare the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to theater, and I don’t understand why. To me, theater is a high art form that is worthy of respect and honor. I do not intend any insult, but only to point out the simliarities.

I understand that you did not intend insult. Like you, I also believe that theater, along with classical music, jazz, and other art forms, is high art. That said, it tends to be common belief that when something considered sacred and holy is defined as “theatrical”, it usually is construed as an insult and criticism. Sort of like how people get really sensitive when the word “performance” is used in the sacred setting during mass.

Example - I am a cradle Catholic, with my entire childhood and teenage years spent in the 1980s and 1990s. Whenever anyone mentioned anything that would be considered Pre-Vatican II, teachers and other older people we knew who were our “mentors” on the Church and the mass, would grimace and talk condescendingly about the past (pre-VII) and would often use the word “theatrical” to describe the EF mass or a beautifully done OF mass that uses “high art” within the mass - such as the vestments, incense, high art sacred music, well-trained musicians, etc.

On the flip side, I have known either former Catholics or people who have never been Catholic and put down the way our mass (the OF mass in particular) is and one of their criticisms of it would be that it is “theatrical” - showy, a “performance”, etc. It is their way to “prove” that Catholicism is not a true Christian faith.

So, I hope you can understand how many people could associate bad feelings with the coupling of “theatrical” and “mass”.

 

[I_Believe]

But no-one’s saying the OF is better, they’re just saying it’s the one they want to attend, and telling you what THEY like about it. Big difference. And it is fine to have a preference of that kind and express it.

If I find a brand of scotch that I really like why SHOULD I have to try any other brand before being permitted to say that I like my brand and want to stick with it? And why should I have to try other brands before I’m permitted to tell those who like other brands exactly WHY I like mine?

And why should you assume that everyone who hasn’t tried YOUR favourite brand would love it if they did? Which is the distinct vibe I get in the Traditional forum. We’re individuals, some might, most won’t because they already have their favourite ‘brand’ and tastes tend not to change.

Hi Lily, fair enough, but she said more than why she likes the OF. She stated that she resents being pushed out of the prayers because they are in Latin.

That is absurd. When did she get pushed out ? Has she attended a TLM ? Or does the fact that she knows the prayers are in latin “pushes her out of the prayers” by default ?

I’m not talking about preferrence. I’m talking about people making those kind of statements, when in fact, they are ignorant of how laity assist the TLM without speaking latin.

And I’m not using the word ingnorant as a derogatory term. Again, it’s frustrating to see, time and time again, folks assuming something that just isn’t so. She obviously assumes she must speak fluent latin to understand the Mass. And that is an absurd assumption.

And no one can accuse me of being biased and just looking to jump on one who isn’t interested in the TLM. I attended an OF today at noon, and I will also attend one tomorrow. Not saying you did say I was biased, but I just thought I’d add that.

If someone, after knowing missals with the english translation are available, still feels it takes too much effort, fine. Just don’t expect absurd statements like “latin pushes us out of the prayers” will go unchallenged on a forum frequented by catholics who know better.

 

[I_Believe]

Our OF Masses are quite reverent and orthodox. Our bishop is diligent about correcting abuses, but they don’t creep in very often.

We do use EMHCs and female altar servers, but this is allowed by the Church if the bishop OKs it, which our does. Our parish does nine Masses on Sunday, with all but the 6:30 AM fairly packed. Three priests, and they are kept busy all day with these Masses, so the EMHCs are needed.

Our bishops have made the TLM available in our diocese since the mid 1980s.

Why do you think I’m ignorant. I fully and completely understand that the Mass is NOT theater. I stated that in my posts. I wasn’t comparing the TLM to the OF of the Mass, which I also consider to be theatrical. I was comparing both Masses to theater. There are simliarities.

It seems that you and others are insulted when I compare the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to theater, and I don’t understand why. To me, theater is a high art form that is worthy of respect and honor. I do not intend any insult, but only to point out the simliarities. Again, I am fully and complete aware that the Mass is NOT theater–it is REAL–a very real re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary, and we are permitted to be present through the miracle of the Mass.

My daughter, a theater professional and recent convert to Catholicism, said (before becoming Catholic) that the Catholic Mass is real, and everything else (referring to Protestant “worship services”) is a theatrical pageant. Think about that. It’s the truth. This is one of the reasons she became Catholic–because she recognized that the Mass is real life, and all the rest of the “church services” are theater.

But…there are simliarities.

Theater is a mundane and worldy thing. When one steps into a Catholic church, one leaves the mundane world behind and places oneself before God.

If the Mass resembles anything worldy to someone present, then I’d have to say they don’t have their thoughts where they belong.

That is my opinion, feel free to disagree.

BTW, you still have not answered. Have you ever attended the Gregorian Rite ?

 

[Cat]

Theater is a mundane and worldy thing. When one steps into a Catholic church, one leaves the mundane world behind and places oneself before God.

If the Mass resembles anything worldy to someone present, then I’d have to say they don’t have their thoughts where they belong.

That is my opinion, feel free to disagree.

BTW, you still have not answered. Have you ever attended the Gregorian Rite ?

I will freely and humbly admit that as a human being who still has a human body and human mind and emotions, when I attend Mass, my thoughts are still dominated by human things, e.g., a pain in my stomach, a crying child, a strong perfume, a resemblance of the Mass to theater, remembering that I left my cell phone on and that I had better turn it off, sadness over thoughts of my relatives who are not Catholic.

I don’t apologize for being a human. That’s the way God made me. I try as hard as I can to set my mind totally on Jesus throughout the Mass, but every second, every minute, my mind wanders.

I hope to some day be perfect, a saint, here on this earth, and think of nothing during Mass except my Lord Jesus Christ. But I’m not there yet. And so, when I see something that looks like theater, the thought comes into my mind, “This looks like theater.”

I don’t dwell on the thought. I don’t spend the rest of the Mass thinking about theater. OK?

In fact, from what I gather on this forum, many people seem to spend the entire Mass dwelling on abuses in the Mass. I don’t dwell on that, either. If the priest does something out of the rubrics, I get past it. If it happens more than once, I’ll probably mention it, but so far, these things don’t happen more than once, so I attribute them to absent-mindedness or perhaps he was distracted by one of those crying babies or pains in his stomach, just like I am.

Most of us Catholics are not perfect humans yet.

Is Gregorian Rite the same thing as TLM?

No, I have not attended TLM in person. I’ve watched several of the links to TLMs that CAF members have posted. I honestly don’t think that attending TLM would be a good idea for me. Like I said in my first post in this thread, to me, the TLM would be an “experience,” and I really don’t have a desire for more “experiences” at this point in my life. I had so many in the Protestant churches–I actually helped plan the “worship experiences.”

I really truly prefer my own lovely English language when it comes to prayer. And I love the hymns–classical, traditional, and contemporary. I play piano, and in an OF Mass, I can serve the Lord and His people. I tend to be a “Martha!”

 

[Lujack]

I mean only that the language sets the Mass apart from a typical, profane event or a simple prayer meeting.

Okay, I understand you know. I’d argue, though, that even the vocabulary used in the Mass distinguishes it from everyday language. Even though something like the King James Bible, inaccurate translation that it is, is immediately distinguishable from everyday English by virtue of its tone and vocabulary.

Especially with the new translations, even the grammatical construction of the Mass distinguishes it from everyday language, even without the use of Latin.

I addressed that in my first paragraph. What reason would the priest have to do this, if no one would notice him? Priests do this sort of thing for attention, or because of some perceived need of the faithful. With a silent Canon, these difficulties disappear. The faithful assume that the proper prayers are being said, and unite themselves to the intentions they express.

Laziness, a desire to end the Mass so that he can get to the football game or the golf tournament, zoning out and skipping over the words…

Even though the Canon is silent and the priest isn’t going to change the words for the sake of showmanship, he can still get lazy. In the OF, he’s protected from laziness but not showmanship. In the EF, he’s protected from showmanship but not laziness.

I still maintain that there are certain things in the EF that make it less open to abuse than the Pauline Mass.

There are things in the EF that make it less open to the types of abuse that appear in the Pauline Mass, yes, but there are also safeguards in the Pauline Mass against the sorts of abuses that would appear during the Tridentine Mass when it was the OF (which it is now protected against because of the fact that the faithful need to make a special effort to attend), such as the faithful praying the Rosary during Mass or the priest getting lazy.

 

[jlr247]

I guess you could say I’m a little afraid of the Latin Mass. I went for the first time this summer, and I felt very confused and almost unwelcome. It was an interesting experience, but I don’t know if I’ll ever go again.

 

[I_Believe]

I will freely and humbly admit that as a human being who still has a human body and human mind and emotions, when I attend Mass, my thoughts are still dominated by human things, e.g., a pain in my stomach, a crying child, a strong perfume, a resemblance of the Mass to theater, remembering that I left my cell phone on and that I had better turn it off, sadness over thoughts of my relatives who are not Catholic.

I don’t apologize for being a human. That’s the way God made me. I try as hard as I can to set my mind totally on Jesus throughout the Mass, but every second, every minute, my mind wanders.

I hope to some day be perfect, a saint, here on this earth, and think of nothing during Mass except my Lord Jesus Christ. But I’m not there yet. And so, when I see something that looks like theater, the thought comes into my mind, “This looks like theater.”

I don’t dwell on the thought. I don’t spend the rest of the Mass thinking about theater. OK?

In fact, from what I gather on this forum, many people seem to spend the entire Mass dwelling on abuses in the Mass. I don’t dwell on that, either. If the priest does something out of the rubrics, I get past it. If it happens more than once, I’ll probably mention it, but so far, these things don’t happen more than once, so I attribute them to absent-mindedness or perhaps he was distracted by one of those crying babies or pains in his stomach, just like I am.

Most of us Catholics are not perfect humans yet.

Is Gregorian Rite the same thing as TLM?

No, I have not attended TLM in person. I’ve watched several of the links to TLMs that CAF members have posted. I honestly don’t think that attending TLM would be a good idea for me. Like I said in my first post in this thread, to me, the TLM would be an “experience,” and I really don’t have a desire for more “experiences” at this point in my life. I had so many in the Protestant churches–I actually helped plan the “worship experiences.”

I really truly prefer my own lovely English language when it comes to prayer. And I love the hymns–classical, traditional, and contemporary. I play piano, and in an OF Mass, I can serve the Lord and His people. I tend to be a “Martha!”

Cat, no, you shouldn’t apologize for being human. And if you are striving for perfection, then you certainly have your priorities as a catholic in order. You are probably a better catholic in that regard than I am.

I may have been too harsh. I too, get distracted at times, usually at the OF Masses I attend. The only way I can deal with that is to get there early and sit in one of the front pews. That way I never notice those who are chit chatting during the Mass, which drives me nuts.

But I must say, I’ve never been distracted during the Gregorian Rite. No matter where I sit, I’m totally focused on the Liturgy. Perhaps it’s because I’m using the missal to follow along and pray the Mass with the priest. There can be a crying baby behind me, and of course I hear the crying, but it doesn’t distract me at all.

I actually had a man apologize to me after a TLM one day for his infants persistent crying. His wife would leave the pew, and come back, only to have the baby start crying again. I just smiled and thanked him for choosing to raise their child in a diocesan parish that offers the TLM. Ever since that day, we exchange a smile when we see each other.

Anyhow, thanks for taking time to explain why you used the term.
Please forgive me for making so much of it. On these forums, it’s easy to forget we are all in this together, fighting temptation and our human weaknesses.

I’ve got a bit of a hardened heart Cat, and I need to work on that. In the mean time I probably should bow out of this thread.

God Bless

 

[John_Andreoni]

At my age the Latin mass was the only Mass there was. In Catholic school we all had to learn latin. Fortunatly i went to Catholic school for 10 years, and i must say it taught me disclipine and self control. Anyway do not feel disconnected if a Mass is said in Latin. Try to learn the mass in Latin and enjoy it, its the true mass. Our father in our little town sings the hymns in Latin, its beautiful and our missal translate in english…John

 

[LilyM]

At my age the Latin mass was the only Mass there was. In Catholic school we all had to learn latin. Fortunatly i went to Catholic school for 10 years, and i must say it taught me disclipine and self control. Anyway do not feel disconnected if a Mass is said in Latin. Try to learn the mass in Latin and enjoy it, its the true mass. Our father in our little town sings the hymns in Latin, its beautiful and our missal translate in english…John

No - any valid Mass is ‘the true Mass’. Doesn’t matter whether it’s EF or OF, in Latin or vernacular, Christ is equally present at all and thus they are all ‘the true Mass’.

 

[bkovacs]

No - any valid Mass is ‘the true Mass’. Doesn’t matter whether it’s EF or OF, in Latin or vernacular, Christ is equally present at all and thus they are all ‘the true Mass’.

From your perspective!. Divine Liturgy in vernacular, EF in latin. OF in latin, or vernacular with altar boys only, chant or choir singing only classical Catholic Music, no guitars and contemporary protestant music, only priests and deacons giving out communion on tongue true Mass. OF with altar girls, laity handing out communion, communion in hand, guitar, and contemporary music, lay preachers, NO!!. My perspective!.

 

[LilyM]

Hi Lily, fair enough, but she said more than why she likes the OF. She stated that she resents being pushed out of the prayers because they are in Latin.

That is absurd. When did she get pushed out ? Has she attended a TLM ? Or does the fact that she knows the prayers are in latin “pushes her out of the prayers” by default ?

It’s not so absurd. Not everyone relates to or processes language in the same way as you do, and some DO automatically, by default if you will, feel ‘pushed out’ of a conversation or a situation when they encounter a foreign language. Firstly, some people in my experience are simply ‘foreign language deaf’ in the way that my father, God love him, is completely tone deaf musically. No amount of learning WILL get them to be comfortable around foreign languages, any more than you can get a tone deaf person to learn to sing in key.

Then again, even the best translation there isn’t a perfect correlation between any two languages, there are nuances that often get lost. And thus people AREN’T getting the meaning of the prayers perfectly when they read an English translation, unlike when they hear it said in English!

Another consideration - some people aren’t comfortable with or skilled at reading, even in their own native tongue, and so would have trouble following along even a purely written vernacular translation.

Others simply find Missals too fiddly and confusing - there’s usually a fair bit of jumping around involved - and tend to lose their place and the plot. Or feel that by reading a book instead of attending to the priest’s words they’re missing something in terms of participation.

There are probably other reasons why the solution of a vernacular written Missal might be far from ideal for everyone, and why some people do much better with a vernacular Mass.

Why do you think churches used to have stained glass windows to relate Bible stories and other teachings in a non-verbal (ie non-written AND non-spoken) manner, if everyone related perfectly well to either the spoken Latin???

 

[LilyM]

From your perspective!. Divine Liturgy in vernacular, EF in latin. OF in latin, or vernacular with altar boys only, chant or choir singing only classical Catholic Music, no guitars and contemporary protestant music, only priests and deacons giving out communion on tongue true Mass. OF with altar girls, laity handing out communion, communion in hand, guitar, and contemporary music, lay preachers, NO!!. My perspective!.

No, it’s Vatican teaching, not my perspective. All the things you’re talking about may be more or less suitable for worship of Him, but any Mass at which Christ is present (and He is at every Mass where the sacrament is validly confected) is nonetheless a true Mass.

Just as both the Upper Room where He was reverently celebrating, and Calvary where He was jeered and mocked, were both truly the first Mass, no?