Are Some People Afraid Of The Latin Mass?

[LexKnight]

Well, one of these days we’ll get that research grant.

I claim they certainly would tell us the effect the Mass itself has on people. E.g., they would tell us whether the reforms driven by Sacrosanctum Concilium have succeeded on their own terms. E.g., did wider use of vernacular increase understanding?

This is how I understand it:

1. 
   *]Churchmen decided that Catholics didn’t appreciate or understand the Mass sufficiently.
   *]Therefore, in order to remedy that situation, they put in motion a reform program designed to have a cause and effect relationship.
   *]However, they didn’t remedy the situation. I claim Catholics today don’t appreciate or understand the Mass sufficiently.
   
   <<Note from LexKnight - I snipped some stuff out here to save room>>
   
   So, maybe it would be more fair to compare highly engaged NO/OF Catholics to highly engaged TLM/EF Catholics? There probably wouldn’t be a big difference. That seems like a fair point.
   
   However, again, keep in mind: The idea of the broader use of vernacular was to make ordinary Mass-going Catholics better informed, right?

1. 
   Except that wasn’t the only purpose of the reform. The reform, mainly, was to emphasise the communal participation aspect of the Mass (or so I believe). This is because the Mass is a communal act of worship that all should participate in to various degrees. The change from Latin to the vernacular removes one barrier to participation, thus making the Mass more accessible.
   
   To be honest I think the best measure of the “success” of these reforms would be to:
   1. Take people who are complete newbies to the Catholic faith.
   2. Give them some introductory lessons to Catholicism and the Mass, and
   3. Take them to a high-quality TLM and a high-quality NO Mass and then ask them (A) which one they felt they understood better, and (B) which one they felt more included during.
   That way the results would be more relevant as people would be less likely to let their own biases, preconceived notions or their own knowledge improve or hinder their “understanding.”
   
   Particularly on this point:
   

   However, they didn’t remedy the situation. I claim Catholics today don’t appreciate or understand the Mass sufficiently.

   I may have to say this a few thousand times - however I don’t necessarily think that this has too much to do with the Mass itself, but rather an individual’s own personal education. After all, there is very little explicit explanation of the different sections, the significance of certain actions, etc. within the Mass itself.
   
   I believe I mentioned this in an earlier post (I think in this thread?) but I’m sure that there are many people in today’s world who only barely understand what is going on in their N.O. Mass because they have not had the benefit of education. I think that these people would probably have a great deal of trouble sitting through a TLM because they would be completely lost (assuming they decide to show up at all).

 

[jakobsprenger]

Ok bloke. I speak as a fellow Aussie and someone who, at 42 has known nothing else except NO Masses. I’m only talking personally here, but they are the reason I’ve been away from the Church for half my life. I came back to Her in September last year, and I came back to a TLM here in Melbourne. I have learnt more about my Faith and the Roman Catholic Church in the last five months than I ever learnt in the last 42 years. What the TLM offers me is a solemnity, reverence and spiritual experience that I never felt at an N.O Mass, even a Solemn one at St Patrick’s Cathedral. Maybe that’s just me. But it seems to me that since the inception of the N.O Mass in the vernacular it has become easier for liturgical abuses to proliferate. In our own country you only have to go to a certain South Brisbane parish to see how far the apple has fallen from the tree. The 7.30 Report video is here: abc.net.au/reslib/200901/r330139_1487546.asx

I did have trouble following the TLM initially, but I persevered and prayed and now I “get” it. And I’m not Einstein by any stretch of the imagination. I’ve had to put in a bit of work, but it’s been worth it. I participate in my TLM, but I don’t have to shake hands to prove it. When you state that it’s down to an individual’s education, I see that as elitism. What it really smacks of is laziness and ignorance - and I mean ignorance in the sense of not knowing any better and laziness in not wanting to.

So if you’re in Melbourne PM me, and I’ll invite you to the TLM I attend. If not, look one up in your vicinity and give it a go. Then get back to us.

 

[ASD]

To be honest I think the best measure of the “success” of these reforms would be to:

1. Take people who are complete newbies to the Catholic faith.
2. Give them some introductory lessons to Catholicism and the Mass, and
3. Take them to a high-quality TLM and a high-quality NO Mass and then ask them (A) which one they felt they understood better, and (B) which one they felt more included during.

That way the results would be more relevant as people would be less likely to let their own biases, preconceived notions or their own knowledge improve or hinder their “understanding.”

I guess you’re right on a certain level: If you drop a clueless guy into TLM/EF he won’t get it. But what does that show?

I mean, I don’t understand how such a radically decontextualized experiment would tell us anything about the real Mass. People have always understood that learning the Mass is a gradual process involving long-term exposure, understanding increases as one grows up, etc. Nobody ever imagined that a person who is clueless could be dropped into a TLM/EF and get it.

However, here’s what people certainly did imagine: If we switch to the vernacular, people will understand better, appreciate more, participate more fully, be touched more deeply, become more of a community.

I claim that what they thought they could accomplish they have failed to accomplish. A simple experiment would prove me right or wrong: Give 'em a quiz.

I may have to say this a few thousand times - however I don’t necessarily think that this has too much to do with the Mass itself, but rather an individual’s own personal education. After all, there is very little explicit explanation of the different sections, the significance of certain actions, etc. within the Mass itself.

OK. I guess I can agree with that. But, I speculate that catechism and education about Mass atrophied precisely because after introduction of expanded vernacular everything is supposed to be completely clear to everybody. But it’s not.

I believe I mentioned this in an earlier post (I think in this thread?) but I’m sure that there are many people in today’s world who only barely understand what is going on in their N.O. Mass because they have not had the benefit of education.

I’m just repeating here: I think they have no education because everybody assumes vernacular has taken the place of explicit catechesis. Here’s my version of your statement: Everything is in English so we hope everybody will get it. Unfortunately, they don’t.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[CradleCath]

When you state that it’s down to an individual’s education, I see that as elitism. What it really smacks of is laziness and ignorance - and I mean ignorance in the sense of not knowing any better and laziness in not wanting to.

So if you’re in Melbourne PM me, and I’ll invite you to the TLM I attend. If not, look one up in your vicinity and give it a go. Then get back to us.

It is absolutely, as you say, laziness &, I think, complacency. The Catholic faith has always been an intellectual one, rather than a completely emotional “walk with Jesus” as many Protestant faiths are. It does not take a genius to be a knowledgeable Catholic, it’s the DESIRE to learn one’s faith that matters. If the desire is there, one finds the info.

I attended 12 yrs. of Catholic school & I’m still learning about Catholicism at age 67. I would say that many of you do not know how blessed you are in the fact that you have the computer to get you started. Want to learn about the history of the Mass?..type “history of the Catholic Mass” into your search engine & go from there. You’ll get basic information &, if you want a deeper knowlege, you can find book titles about the subject on-line.

Gone are the days where you must go to your priest for a list of reading material. One doesn’t have to live in a major city to find a liturgical library…there’s one on line:
catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Search. The documents of both Trent & Vatican II can be found on the internet.

I have not one degree in anything that even comes near Theology, My BA. is in Advertising, I study my faith because I need to & I want to. If I’m gonna’ be a Catholic, I’m gonna’ be a CATHOLIC!!

I read a post (I think it was in this thread??) that claimed that the vernaculur Mass might have been chosen to “make Seminary easier” for our priests. I just shook my head & left the computer. Poor Pope Leo & his dream that Catholic children be educated in such a manner that they could become LEADERS in society, in the home & in the priesthood:

Pope Leo XIII on the education of the clergy:
from his encyclical of 1899, this section being specifically directed toward the Bishops of France & the Vicars of Seminaries there:

1. Nevertheless, after making all the allowances imposed by circumstances for this exigency of the State programme, the studies of aspirants to the priesthood must remain faithful to the traditional methods of past ages. It is these which have produced the eminent men of whom France is so justly proud - the Petaus, Thomassins, Mabillons and many others, to say nothing of your Bossuet, called the Eagle of Meaux, because in loftiness of thought and nobility of expression his genius soars in the highest regions of Christian science and eloquence. The study of belles lettres (fine writing) rendered mighty aid in making these men valiant and useful workers in the service of the Church and capable of writing works which were truly worthy to pass down to posterity, and which contribute even to-day to the defense and propagation of revealed truth. For the belles lettres have the property, when taught by skilful Christian masters, of rapidly developing in the souls of young men all the germs of intellectual and moral life, whilst at the same time contributing accuracy and broadness to the judgment and elegance and distinction to expression.

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13depui.htm

Good old Pope Leo. He was my Father’s patron saint.

 

[iona_scribe]

Except that wasn’t the only purpose of the reform. The reform, mainly, was to emphasise the communal participation aspect of the Mass (or so I believe). This is because the Mass is a communal act of worship that all should participate in to various degrees. The change from Latin to the vernacular removes one barrier to participation, thus making the Mass more accessible.

To be honest I think the best measure of the “success” of these reforms would be to:

1. Take people who are complete newbies to the Catholic faith.
2. Give them some introductory lessons to Catholicism and the Mass, and
3. Take them to a high-quality TLM and a high-quality NO Mass and then ask them (A) which one they felt they understood better, and (B) which one they felt more included during.

That way the results would be more relevant as people would be less likely to let their own biases, preconceived notions or their own knowledge improve or hinder their “understanding.”

Particularly on this point:

I may have to say this a few thousand times - however I don’t necessarily think that this has too much to do with the Mass itself, but rather an individual’s own personal education. After all, there is very little explicit explanation of the different sections, the significance of certain actions, etc. within the Mass itself.

I believe I mentioned this in an earlier post (I think in this thread?) but I’m sure that there are many people in today’s world who only barely understand what is going on in their N.O. Mass because they have not had the benefit of education. I think that these people would probably have a great deal of trouble sitting through a TLM because they would be completely lost (assuming they decide to show up at all).

It’s not been long since I was a newbie. During my time as an RCIA candidate 2 years ago I had the opportunity to visit a Norbertine monastery on a service project with some friends from my parish. We went to their TLM at the start of the day, and ended the day with Vespers. With the exception of my wedding day, it was the most beautiful Mass I have ever experienced.

Of course if you had asked me question number 3 I would have told you that the N.O. Mass at my parish served those purposes better. But that would have been using my Protestant definitions of “understand” and “include” that refer exclusively to language comprehension and ability to respond verbally.

But what I was not prepared for was the overwhelming sense of belonging in a much, much deeper sense. I realized I was worshiping the way my Christian brothers and sisters have worshiped for centuries.

Later on, now that I fully understand the overall purpose of the Mass (it’s a sacrifice! ) and the idea of being in communion with the Body of Christ (which includes the body of believers throughout time and place, not just in the pew next to me) I would have to say that my feelings about not understanding the Latin very well or being able to follow along as well as I would like yet are insignificant compared to the way the TLM helps me to intuitively understand the Mass as sacrifice and to understand that I belong to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I get closer and closer to becoming a Traditionalist every time I type a response on this forum

 

[Mels]

I know my mom said she wouldn’t have converted to Catholicism if the mass was entirely in Latin; she wouldn’t have a clue what’s going on.

I think there isn’t a problem with the Latin Mass except the fact that most of it isn’t in the vernacular. Luckily for me, I took Latin in high school so I can understand it for the most part, but I’m an exceptional case.

 

[LilyM]

I read a post (I think it was in this thread??) that claimed that the vernaculur Mass might have been chosen to “make Seminary easier” for our priests. I just shook my head & left the computer. Poor Pope Leo & his dream that Catholic children be educated in such a manner that they could become LEADERS in society, in the home & in the priesthood:

Pope Leo XIII on the education of the clergy:
from his encyclical of 1899, this section being specifically directed toward the Bishops of France & the Vicars of Seminaries there:

1. Nevertheless, after making all the allowances imposed by circumstances for this exigency of the State programme, the studies of aspirants to the priesthood must remain faithful to the traditional methods of past ages. It is these which have produced the eminent men of whom France is so justly proud - the Petaus, Thomassins, Mabillons and many others, to say nothing of your Bossuet, called the Eagle of Meaux, because in loftiness of thought and nobility of expression his genius soars in the highest regions of Christian science and eloquence. The study of belles lettres (fine writing) rendered mighty aid in making these men valiant and useful workers in the service of the Church and capable of writing works which were truly worthy to pass down to posterity, and which contribute even to-day to the defense and propagation of revealed truth. For the belles lettres have the property, when taught by skilful Christian masters, of rapidly developing in the souls of young men all the germs of intellectual and moral life, whilst at the same time contributing accuracy and broadness to the judgment and elegance and distinction to expression.

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13depui.htm

Good old Pope Leo. He was my Father’s patron saint.

Non-sequitur. One can remain very faithful to the METHODS and LEARNING of past ages without using the same language. After all, secular philosophy students don’t suffer for not being able to read Plato or Aristotle in Greek, or psychologists for not being able to read Freud in German, do they?

I suppose you want to bring back corporal punishment in schools too? Writing on wax tablets? Or with quill pens? By your logic those things, being the ‘methods’ used in ages past, must also be retained for proper instruction of seminarians?

Practical example of what I mean- not so very long ago all medical courses at university (indeed all courses) were taught entirely in Latin.

My grandfather, mother and sister have all, over the course of the last half-century and more, been through university medical training. All starting with pretty much the same building blocks - anatomy and such things haven’t really changed much.

Latin has been retained to a certain extent, but progressively significantly less Latin and more vernacular has been used in each generation. Has any of the medical wisdom of the ages - any of the relevant methods or learning - been lost as a result of the decreasing Latin? Is the education in fact any the worse, any less a proper preparation for doctors, as a result of less Latin? Not a bit of it.

I’d be happy to debate changes in curriculum and content - those things certainly have changed, and I don’t think for the better. But to imply that one can’t be a properly educated priest unless one crams one’s head full of Latin is ludicrous.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Except that wasn’t the only purpose of the reform. The reform, mainly, was to emphasise the communal participation aspect of the Mass (or so I believe). This is because the Mass is a communal act of worship that all should participate in to various degrees.

You’re right in one sense. There was just a modicum of communal participation in a daily 6am Low Mass in 1963. There is just a modicum of communal participation in a 7am OF Mass at my cathedral downtown. The number of participants has not changed very much from 1963 and they participate at the exact same level of participation.

I wish I had a time machine that I could sweep you up and plunck you down at the 10 am High Mass (Missa Cantata) celebrated in my suburban parish in 1963. Entrance hymn (in English), sung Kyrie, sung Gloria, sung Credo, Offertory hymn (sometimes in English; sometimes in Latin), sung Sanctus, sung Pater Noster, sung Agnus Dei, Communion hymn (sometimes in English; sometimes in Latin), Recessional (in English). All sung by the congregation. Congregation responded to the chanted parts of Mass that we respond to today in the OF. We also knew that “Et cum spiritu tuo” meant “And with thy spirit” and not “And also with you”.

So there was congregational participation - just like there was congregational participation at Novenas to Our Lady of Perpetual Help and Benediction following - in Latin. Given that same time machine, you would get an earful from those little old ladies at Novena/Benediction about just how much they understood. They belted out Tantum Ergo and O Salutaris Hostia…

I don’t have a degree in Theology either. My degrees are in Anthropology. That which was supposed to “unite” and “encourage” communal participation served to severely damage long standing ethnic communities which were increasingly marginalized in the early 70s as we willy-nilly embraced change solely for the sake of change. I saw it with my parents. I saw it with the Italian/Sicilian widows renowned for their personal piety. In 1963 there would be 150-200 people in attendance on Tuesday night for Novena/Benediction. How many today? Novena in my cathedral parish has been reduced to twenty minutes before the Noon Mass with no Benediction. How many Catholics today would even know what Benediction is? Sad to say, in my own cathedral parish what used to be weekly is now, at best, once, maybe twice, a year.

I will freely admit that there were those who completely embraced what they thought Vatican II was all about. I have my 40th high school reunion coming up in May and I have already spoken to my old friend, Frank who still plays guitar, “a grinnin’ and a strummin” at his parish" (I’d submit to you that being a 57 year old and carrying on like it was 1969 is a bit of an anachronism). I was perfectly happy in those times with Latin. I love chant. I love sacred motets. I’d have to brush up on the rubrics, but I could serve a TLM today.

It’s been very hard not to be bitter these last 40 plus years. My pastor has been saying the TLM privately and I offered him my services as either an altar server or as a member of a schola. Unfortunately, his tenure at the cathedral has come to an end.

There is nothing to fear from Latin or the TLM. It was the norm 45+ years ago. I went to Catholic schools for 13 years. You can bet I didn’t understand anything but that I was in the presence of the sacred in primer. Have any of you given any consideration as to what it was like to be prepared to make one’s First Communion in the spring of 1958? Think about that.

 

[ProVobis]

Remember, I didn’t say he had problems with Latin. I’m the one who rather doubted that he did.

Well, be that as it may, I hate to be the one to break this news, but apparently canon 249 is flouted on a daily basis.

Apparently Canon Law doesn’t apply if the majority disagrees with it.

 

[ProVobis]

After all, secular philosophy students don’t suffer for not being able to read Plato or Aristotle in Greek, or psychologists for not being able to read Freud in German, do they?

But physics and mathematics majors read Greek (letters) all the time and probably don’t give it too much thought. However, they wouldn’t be able to distinguish one ray from another without it.

And how would you be able to distinguish one college fraternity from another if it weren’t for Greek?

 

[LilyM]

But physics and mathematics majors read Greek (letters) all the time and probably don’t give it too much thought. However, they wouldn’t be able to distinguish one ray from another without it.

And how would you be able to distinguish one college fraternity from another if it weren’t for Greek?

But in such cases they use them as symbols, not as letters per se. A maths student, for example, (it’s been a while, but I have vague memories of being one myself) uses them in exactly the same manner and for the same purposes as they use + or % or > . Like these other symbols they can be understood just as well when expressed in English - alpha, beta, gamma, plus, percent, greater than.

I bet they don’t give it much thought. Few of them would even know or care that some are actually Greek letters, ergo they are not reading Greek, but interpreting signs and symbols.

As for fraternities snort I thank the Lord that such similar organisations as exist here in Australia aren’t pretentious and elitist enough to adopt Greek lettering in their names - when not one in a thousand students would actually be able to read Greek.

Again they are symbols or signs of a sort, and not genuinely being ‘read’ as letters. And you may as well substitute all those Greek letters for a few big fat $$ symbols.

 

[CradleCath]

LilyM;4739606]Non-sequitur.

Wrong. Pope Leo’s conclusion that the education given in fine writing, Latin, communication, etc. produced great men & priests does follow his premise re the importance of a good education for Seminarians & Catholic children in general. Therefore, it’s far from a non-sequitur.

One can remain very faithful to the METHODS and LEARNING of past ages without using the same language

.
Hmmmmm. As I read some of the posts on these forums, that show total ignorance re “past ages”, I would have to question your conclusions about education, period.

BTW. You seem quite “Hung up” on the language thing. Myself, I was addressing your attitude that the vernacular Mass could have been chosen because it would make the education of priests “**easier”. **The Church isn’t interested… & never was in “easy” educations. See the reasons in my earlier post.

After all, secular philosophy students don’t suffer for not being able to read Plato or Aristotle in Greek, or psychologists for not being able to read Freud in German, do they?

That’s your opinion.

I suppose you want to bring back corporal punishment in schools too? Writing on wax tablets? Or with quill pens? By your logic those things, being the ‘methods’ used in ages past, must also be retained for proper instruction of seminarians?

The words you are addressing came from Pope Leo, not me. AND I think that the response above is quite rude. It’s such a common trick…you trivilize the important…an education that has proven to produce superior results, by comparing it to a type of writing instrument. Only those who cannot come up with a good answer use this type of ridicule.

Practical example of what I mean- not so very long ago all medical courses at university (indeed all courses) were taught entirely in Latin.

Not very long ago??? :nope:

I’d be happy to debate changes in curriculum and content - those things certainly have changed, and I don’t think for the better. But to imply that one can’t be a properly educated priest unless one crams one’s head full of Latin is ludicrous…

Latin is the official language of the Church. Priests should be able to have a basic understanding of it. They don’t have to converse in Latin or write in Latin. However, they should have enough familiarity with it to say a Latin Mass since the need for that is called for by the laity. Perhaps you have forgotten Pope Benedict’s Motu proprio:

Art. 5. § 1 **In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, **
Knowing enough Latin to care for their flock, & that includes those who request the TLM, is not an option for a priest anymore.

One question: are you so vehemently opposed to any language that is foreign to you? Or is it simply an aversion to Latin that drives you. I started learning basic Latin when I was 8 yrs. old., as a result of daily Mass. I continued my education in Latin until I left high school. My Granddaughter is 9 yrs. old & trying to learn French. My Grandson, her brother, is learning German. Do you think that this is ridiculous or is it simply a language that YOU think, since it is a “dead” language (no more additions, etc.), doesn’t have any importance. If so, you’ll have to rethink that, as priests are now being called to provide the TLM. when it’s requested. It is now part of their “job”.

The above said, I’ll repeat for approximatly the 20th time:

The Gregorian Mass is NOT about the language,
It’s about the Mass itself

 

[Frosty]

I wish I had a time machine that I could sweep you up and plunck you down at the 10 am High Mass (Missa Cantata) celebrated in my suburban parish in 1963. Entrance hymn (in English), sung Kyrie, sung Gloria, sung Credo, Offertory hymn (sometimes in English; sometimes in Latin), sung Sanctus, sung Pater Noster, sung Agnus Dei, Communion hymn (sometimes in English; sometimes in Latin), Recessional (in English). All sung by the congregation. Congregation responded to the chanted parts of Mass that we respond to today in the OF. We also knew that “Et cum spiritu tuo” meant “And with thy spirit” and not “And also with you”.

Fast forward to 2009 and that sounds exactly like both my regular parish and our Cathedral downtown. With the exception that the Mass itself is the OF.

So there was congregational participation - just like there was congregational participation at Novenas to Our Lady of Perpetual Help and Benediction following - in Latin. Given that same time machine, you would get an earful from those little old ladies at Novena/Benediction about just how much they understood. They belted out Tantum Ergo and O Salutaris Hostia…

You know, I attended Benediction every Sunday evening and First Fridays at my parish church from the time I was seven years old until I left home for university in the mid 1960"s. I knew Tantum Ergo and O Salutaris Hostia,off by heart. I had absolutely no idea of the English translation until I was about 15 when I finally looked it up. Just a few weeks ago, I was visiting with an elderly relative [she is 92] who has been a daily Mass attendee all her life. We started talking about what life had been like in the Church pre VII. I was curious as to what her recollections were. After talking for awile, she asked me if I still remembered how to play some of the old hymns on the piano. I told her that I did The first one I played was Tantum Ergo and she sang along in a surprisingly clear voice. When the hymn was finished I asked her if she knew the English words. She gave me a rather perplexed look and replied that “No, why should I know. I only ever sang it in Latin. That’s the way I was taught by the nuns at boarding school. The same with the other hymns for Benediction”. I do not believe that her story is atypical at all. While there probably were many that did understand what they were singing, there were as many who did not.

In 1963 there would be 150-200 people in attendance on Tuesday night for Novena/Benediction. How many today? Novena in my cathedral parish has been reduced to twenty minutes before the Noon Mass with no Benediction. How many Catholics today would even know what Benediction is? Sad to say, in my own cathedral parish what used to be weekly is now, at best, once, maybe twice, a year.

We did not have a regular Novena in the way you speak of it. There was always one during Lent and leading up to Advent. Benediction was Sunday evening after the Stations of the Cross, and on First Fridays. The parish I attend now has Benediction every Friday Afternoon at 5pm as does the Cathedral followed by Adoration until midnight. Funny thing, this devotion is very well attended at both places. Also the daily Mass at noon is preceeded by the Rosary followed by the Angelus.

There is nothing to fear from Latin or the TLM. It was the norm 45+ years ago. I went to Catholic schools for 13 years. You can bet I didn’t understand anything but that I was in the presence of the sacred in primer. Have any of you given any consideration as to what it was like to be prepared to make one’s First Communion in the spring of 1958? Think about that.

I agree that there is nothing to be feared about either Latin or the TLM. I loved going to Mass as a child, a teenager and as an adult. I can honestly say that I have never attended a Mass anywhere in the world that I have not felt in the presence of God. I made my First Communion in 1954 and remember it well. However, I do not understand the point of your comment. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

 

[ProVobis]

But in such cases they use them as symbols, not as letters per se. A maths student, for example, (it’s been a while, but I have vague memories of being one myself) uses them in exactly the same manner and for the same purposes as they use + or % or > . Like these other symbols they can be understood just as well when expressed in English - alpha, beta, gamma, plus, percent, greater than.

Not to be too argumentative – in fact we may be in some agreement here – but “translating” the symbol for “pi” into something like 3.14 destroys its meaning for the mathematical purists. And I’m only using one example. And what about the symbol for infinity? How do you translate that and make it more understandable? Also there are symbols of integration, theories of differentiation, electrical charges, magnetic constants, and nuclear reactions that are just too internationally accepted to be translated into a more “vernacular” symbols. Heck some of these symbols, Greek or otherwise, have been around since B.C.

That said, it’s strange that we use more commonly use Arabic characters for numerical expressions and not Roman numerals. Yet we use most of the Roman alphabet in ordinary writing and it transcends (across) many languages.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I made my First Communion in 1954 and remember it well. However, I do not understand the point of your comment. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

We did not make our First Communion isolated from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, right? I made my First Communion within the context of Catholic school. DW (who is three years older than me) made her First Communion with her Sunday School class. Both of us recall that there was no separation from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and Communion. So, if we didn’t have at least a basic understanding of the Mass in 1957, what where we doing?

I got side-tracked last night. My oldest son (27) paid me a visit while I was on CAF.

I asked him about his understanding of Latin since our cathedral parish reverts to Latin during Lent for the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei…same chants I knew as a kid (mode III?).

He said he knew it was the Latin/Greek replacements but never really looked into it further. I have my 1962 St. Joseph’s Missal in the computer room. I handed him the Missal and said see if you can understand.

In short order, he was “parsing” the Latin into English. He noted exactly what I noted some almost 50 years ago. Cognates jump out off the page.

I’m gonna give him his mother’s 1962 missal and I’ll take my own and we are going to head down to St. Patrick’s in New Orleans for a sung High Mass. There, I will show him as my mother showed me, the “mysteries” of Latin.

 

[Frosty]

We did not make our First Communion isolated from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, right? I made my First Communion within the context of Catholic school. DW (who is three years older than me) made her First Communion with her Sunday School class. Both of us recall that there was no separation from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and Communion. So, if we didn’t have at least a basic understanding of the Mass in 1957, what where we doing?

.

Okay. I get what you mean. However, I’m still not sure what the point is. If you are trying to say that children who have received their First Communion since the Mass has been celebrated in the vernacular do not have a basic understanding of the Mass or that Communion is a sacrament inter-related to the Sacrifice. then I completely disagree. Naturally not all children completely understand .nor I doubt if they ever did. A six or seven year old child’s abiltity to grasp such a mystery is very limited. The more they participate and mature the better they begin to grasp the full meaning. IMO it has nothing to do with Latin or the vernacular, EF or OF. Proper catechis and an openess of mind and heart are the beginning, What the child or adult does with it afterwards is in his/her own hands.

 

[Verzejd]

I am a Catholic born after Vatican 2 & have only known the NO Mass. I went to my first ever TLM (Extraordinary…) & was filled with awe! Yes, it is very differenent than the Mass I grew up in, but I see the grace and reverence in it. In a way, it makes you participate and love the NO Mass more. It (TLM) is a great opportunity to grow spirituality in another way. I am thankful JPII and B16 made it more available.

Pax,
Verzejd

 

[brotherhrolf]

My point was is that there is an entire generation of us still alive who grew up before Vatican II when the Mass was in Latin. Many of us were Confirmed before 1965. I’m simply trying to point out the glaring errors of the Urban Myth that no one understood what was going on before 1965.

I don’t have a problem with those of you who like the sacraments in the vernacular. Cool. Go for it. I do have a problem with those of you who say “we didn’t know what we were doing or saying”.

 

[LilyM]

Not to be too argumentative – in fact we may be in some agreement here – but “translating” the symbol for “pi” into something like 3.14 destroys its meaning for the mathematical purists. And I’m only using one example. And what about the symbol for infinity? How do you translate that and make it more understandable? Also there are symbols of integration, theories of differentiation, electrical charges, magnetic constants, and nuclear reactions that are just too internationally accepted to be translated into a more “vernacular” symbols. Heck some of these symbols, Greek or otherwise, have been around since B.C.

Simple - pi is correctly ‘translated’ as ‘the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter’, rather than a number. Just as there are other ratios that don’t translate perfectly in terms of digits.

‘Infinity’ is ‘infinity’, pure and simple. Those who don’t understand that word can doubtless refer to a dictionary. No absolute need for symbols, although they DO make life much easier when widely understood as pi and the infinity symbol are.

That said, it’s strange that we use more commonly use Arabic characters for numerical expressions and not Roman numerals. Yet we use most of the Roman alphabet in ordinary writing and it transcends (across) many languages.

In a Euro- or West- centric world it might. Even then there are plenty of languages that are better rendered in, for example, the Greek or Cyrillic alphabet. To use the Roman alphabet even for French, German or Italian requires, for example, accent marks to be used with some the letters, or even a few additional characters altogether, for accurate representation of certain sounds.

And that’s ignoring the Asian languages altogether. Remember Mandarin Chinese is the SINGLE by far most widely spoken language in the world. And it and other Asian languages translate poorly at best into the Roman alphabet.

 

[Frosty]

brotherhrolf;4747949**:

My point was is that there is an entire generation of us still alive who grew up before Vatican II when the Mass was in Latin. Many of us were Confirmed before 1965. I’m simply trying to point out the glaring errors of the Urban Myth that no one understood what was going on before 1965.

I don’t have a problem with those of you who like the sacraments in the vernacular. Cool. Go for it. I do have a problem with those of you who say “we didn’t know what we were doing or saying”.

Thanks. I’ve been trying to follow this thread but it has veered off into so many directions that It is hard to figure out at times exactly what some people are really trying to say. You are absolutely correct that there are many of us still alive who grew up with the Mass in Latin and understood what it was all about. However, we do have to admit that there were also many who didn’t.
Perhaps some of the misunderstanding we find here is that those of us who grew up in priviledged countries in North America or Europe and had the benefit and good fortune of a Catholic education forget those who didn’t. Even in our own countries, not all Catholics had the opportunity to attend Catholic Schools or even owned a Sunday Missal. Where they really able to follow along with the prayers of the Mass? I don’t know, but I do expect that a lot could not.