Are the Church Leaders "Out of Touch" with the congregation?

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StJudePray4Me

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…several people, including 2 priests have made statements to that effect to me recently.

I assume they were referring to the complaints that people have that the Church is unreasonable in it’s expectations about chaste living, birth control, gay marriage and other social issues being discussed on the popular media and the fact that Mass attendance is so low in the USA.

Do you think it’s true? Can you see why people would think that way?

And another question…if they ARE out-of-touch…should they be? Should they be trying to understand the feelings of the people, or worrying more about the way things SHOULD be and not entertaining the objections of the Everyman Catholic?
 
It is the people that are out of touch with the true teachings of Christ. Bunch of whiners if you ask me.
 
No the church is not out of touch simply because it teaches the truth.
 
hudson said:
It is the people that are out of touch with the true teachings of Christ.
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👍

Should they try to understand the feelings, absolutely. That is the only way they will know how to properly bring them to understand the Truth – but the Truth doesn’t change.
 
The Church does not claim the right to correct Jesus Christ. The Church has received the teachings of Christ and protected them now for 2000 years. The last thing we want to do is start trying to change the teachings of Christ to get “in touch” with “the world,” which is violently opposed to the teachings of Christ!
 
StJudePray4Me said:
…And another question…if they ARE out-of-touch…should they be? Should they be trying to understand the feelings of the people, or worrying more about the way things SHOULD be and not entertaining the objections of the Everyman Catholic?
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Jesus commissioned his first apostles to “go into the world and preach the Gospel, teaching what I have taught you.” He did not tell them to “go into the world, find out what the current liberal ideas are and bring them back and incorporate them into my church.”
 
I don’t think the fundamentals are out of touch, but I think maybe the way that The Church communicates them is.
 
StJudePray4Me said:
Interesting… Care to elaborate?
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The Catholic Church is comprised of millions and millions of people, many of whom are not well catechized, and most either do not agree with the entirety of the catechism or do not think it is really important to follow it.

Granted, there are a lot more “rules” in the Catholic Church than in other Christian denominations, and it’s harder to live by. Having said that, if The Church is really concerned about helping people live in a way that gets them to Heaven, She first needs to teach them how to do so - and why they should. Coloring pictures of Jesus at Sunday school or at CCD does not a well-formed Catholic make.

I do not think it’s an exaggeration that upwards of 90% of those who call themselves Catholic use birth control. And miss Mass regularly. And never go to confession. And receive communion while not in a state of grace. And support the death penalty. And take the Lord’s name in vain. And have sex out of wedlock. And vote for pro-choice politicians. And, and, and…

I think it is indicative of a huge problem when we have this number of Catholics flouting the rules that are supposed to help them live a more holy life and achieve eternal life with our Lord. They simply do not believe the catechism is correct or important to their salvation. Some people will say, “Oh well, that’s their problem if they don’t follow the rules.” But I don’t think you see this percentage of, say, Mormons, out doing things that are explicitly against their religion. I do not think 90% of Mormons are drinking alcohol every night. I don’t have an answer to the problem, but it’s something The Church needs to really, really think about. Never once have I heard a homily about adherence to the catechism. And honestly, it’s something I’m struggling with personally right now. I can’t even get a priest to give me guidance on how to accept the catechism in my own life, much less look to my fellow parishioners for support and encouragement.
 
MaryHelene said:
The Catholic Church is comprised of millions and millions of people, many of whom are not well catechized, and most either do not agree with the entirety of the catechism or do not think it is really important to follow it.

Granted, there are a lot more “rules” in the Catholic Church than in other Christian denominations, and it’s harder to live by. Having said that, if The Church is really concerned about helping people live in a way that gets them to Heaven, She first needs to teach them how to do so - and why they should. Coloring pictures of Jesus at Sunday school or at CCD does not a well-formed Catholic make.

I do not think it’s an exaggeration that upwards of 90% of those who call themselves Catholic use birth control. And miss Mass regularly. And never go to confession. And receive communion while not in a state of grace. And support the death penalty. And take the Lord’s name in vain. And have sex out of wedlock. And vote for pro-choice politicians. And, and, and…

I think it is indicative of a huge problem when we have this number of Catholics flouting the rules that are supposed to help them live a more holy life and achieve eternal life with our Lord. They simply do not believe the catechism is correct or important to their salvation. Some people will say, “Oh well, that’s their problem if they don’t follow the rules.” But I don’t think you see this percentage of, say, Mormons, out doing things that are explicitly against their religion. I do not think 90% of Mormons are drinking alcohol every night. I don’t have an answer to the problem, but it’s something The Church needs to really, really think about. Never once have I heard a homily about adherence to the catechism. And honestly, it’s something I’m struggling with personally right now. I can’t even get a priest to give me guidance on how to accept the catechism in my own life, much less look to my fellow parishioners for support and encouragement.
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I think you have hit upon the crux of the matter. Lack of effective catechesis is a huge problem, not only with the young people in CCD (stands more now for Color, Cut, and Draw), but for their parents, too! It’s a generational problem. They don’t know what they don’t know. And I blame the hierarchy for this problem. For too long, they have watered down the faith to make it “more palatable” (read here: more acceptable and “in tune with the times”). They have nuanced the faith into utter ambiguity! When was the last time you heard a good, inbetween-the-eyes homily on Humanae Vitae? Or the 10 Commandments? I can’t tell you, and I’m fairly well traveled (in my opinion).

Bishops and priests will be judged, not just for what they preach and teach, but also for what they don’t preach and teach but should! As one good priest once said, “I’m going to tell 'em what they need to hear! I ain’t going to hell for nobody!” 🙂
 
StJudePray4Me said:
…several people, including 2 priests have made statements to that effect to me recently.

I assume they were referring to the complaints that people have that the Church is unreasonable in it’s expectations about chaste living, birth control, gay marriage and other social issues being discussed on the popular media and the fact that Mass attendance is so low in the USA.
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Mass attendance is down because society is failing, not the church.
Do you think it’s true? Can you see why people would think that way?
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It’s not true, the church is fully aware of what satan would want us to believe is right. It is simply irrelevant, since we do not serve Satan.

I can see why people would think that way as well… it is far easier to define morality such that we can accept our own faults as moraly acceptable than to attempt to change our engrained habits by working against our conscupience. Everyone wants to think of themselves as a good person… and the moral code stands in stark contradiction to that image when it comes to those who want to persist in their ways while still considering themselves “good”.
And another question…if they ARE out-of-touch…should they be?
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They aren’t out of touch, and that’s the way it should be. We SHOULD be aware of the devil’s tactics and be prepared to meet them with the same consistant truth we have preached since the great commission.

Whether or not we allow the knowledge of the devil’s tactics (being “in touch” as you call it) is another matter, while we are “in touch” with secular attitudes, to then use those to redefine morality as though truth is created by proclamation of man is ridiculous. Even if the church were to fall into blasphemy in attempting to countermand the objective moral truth that God has given us, it would make no difference… truth would still be truth, and all the sins that are preached against now would still be gravely disordered nonetheless.
Should they be trying to understand the feelings of the people, or worrying more about the way things SHOULD be and not entertaining the objections of the Everyman Catholic?
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The latter, obviously. And it’s not the way that they SHOULD be, but rather the way that God ordained them to be. God set the river of the moral code in it’s path… we can swim against it, but the measure would be useless because we would still be swept along by the current. The truth of God is inexorable, and the Church has no power to countermand it…
 
hudson said:
It is the people that are out of touch with the true teachings of Christ. Bunch of whiners if you ask me.
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:rotfl:

Excellent. I will use this next time someone gives me out of touch nonsence.
 
Whether or not their stance on birth control is right or wrong is not for me to say, as I am not Catholic and don’t even pretend to hold myself to Catholic standards.

But reading through this thread got me thinking. I do think that the Catholic church is very out of touch when it comes to communicating their message on birth control to their members. Prior to joining CAF every Catholic that I had ever met outside of my fiance’s family has made it clear that birth control is not ok-with a wink and a nod. In fact, I remember when I was in high school one of my teachers shared that she is Catholic, but that no one cares about birth control, the ban is just a relic of previous generations. I was actually shocked when I came on here and saw that some people actually felt very strongly about it. (Even a Priest had told me that it was only “technically” not allowed, but not a sin.)

Someone pointed out that Mormons for example, don’t have this issue. Having been very close to several Mormons I understand why. When it comes to the ‘Word of Wisdom’ it’s talked about in the household of every Mormon family, from the pulpit at every Mormon church, and from the mouths of every Mormon missionary that knocks on my door. It’s taught that you don’t engage in things like smoking, drinking, etc because god put those laws in place to protect you, and that you should follow them for your own good. When it comes to birth control you hardly ever hear about it, and when you do its on the news where a bunch of old Bishops are saying “No, don’t do this because we and god say not to”. That is not personal, it does not convey a caring message, it doesn’t even give a satisfying explanation for the rule. If you want people to follow and understand it you have to take the message to them and convey it in such a way that shows concern for their well being and for their marriages. If they don’t understand it the rule or understand how it is good for them then they will ignore it.
 
The Church needs an huge reformation, but, aha!, not the reformation the liberals and the modernists expect. The Church needs a revolution, but not the revolution the liberals and the modernists expect. They will be hugely surprised one day, either on this life, witnessing the renewal of the Church, or in hell, being tormented by the vision of the Church’s victory over Her enemies.
 
sicutincensum said:
The Church needs an huge reformation, but, aha!, not the reformation the liberals and the modernists expect. The Church needs a revolution, but not the revolution the liberals and the modernists expect. They will be hugely surprised one day, either on this life, witnessing the renewal of the Church, or in hell, being tormented by the vision of the Church’s victory over Her enemies.
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Shouldn’t you be praying that they see the error of their ways and repent? Your post sounds almost smug and gleeful at the idea of people being tormented for all of eternity, and that’s upsetting.
 
I heard it said once that The Church should be a thermostat (i.e. set the temperature) and not a thermometer (i.e. merely read the temperature).
 
I respectfully think most of you are wrong, and answered the wrong question.

The question was, “are Church leaders out of touch?” What many of you answered was, “is the Church out of touch?”

I think many Church leaders are out of touch, totally so, for several reasons, assuming we are talking about the clergy as the leaders. Who’s a “church leader?” The pastor? The bishop? The Pope? WE are the Church itself.

That said…IMHO many priests, pastors, etc., are out of touch. Why? Several reasons.

First, many want and expect total adherence to “what they want,” “because they think they know best.,” or because they are who they are, makes them right. The CHURCH may be correct about X but that does not mean the PASTOR is right about Y and Z…yet the pastors act as if they are correct, in part because of the Church’s position that it IS always correct.

Heck, some clergy are used to (wrongly) getting total adherence to whatever they want, down to expecting a housekeeper to prepare all their meals.

An illustration would suffice. In my Parish…suddenly, there were no missals in the pews, so it was impossible to follow the readings at Mass. My wife asked the pastor – why no missals? His response? “I want people to listen better.” (exact words). We’ll leave out the hearing impaired…the folks who are next to the crying kid…or the folks who just like reading along. And we have no missals, because the pastor wants and expects his way, and he gets it, “because he’s the pastor.”
  1. One item the protestants do well – the concept of the “church elders.” You have a marital problem? Go to the church elders, some of whom are married 40 years. Studies show that the 2 largest causes of spousal arguments are a) money and b) sex. It’s hard for Catholic clergy to really relate to, say, mortgage problems, when the Church pays no property tax and the rectory has no mortgage, It’s equally impossible for the Clergy to relate to sexual &marital problems when they are celibate, chase & unmarried. Those clergy are busy “tending to the flock,” and generally never (or seldom) are placed in situations where they must address, i.e., anti-catholic bosses; nasty neighbors; financial pressures; child rearing issues, etc.
So, sorry, I think SOME clergy are “out of touch” with the problems and issues us laity face daily.
 
BlueEyedLady said:
…But reading through this thread got me thinking. I do think that the Catholic church is very out of touch when it comes to communicating their message on birth control to their members. …
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How many Catholics have even bothered to read the various encyclicals published by the Church leaders on various issues?
 
sedonaman said:
How many Catholics have even bothered to read the various encyclicals published by the Church leaders on various issues?
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Exactly. Not many. And that’s why I think that the mode of transmission is outdated. People want to feel close to others and connect to the rules of their faith on a personal level. That’s why I like the Mormon model of making it a personal and loving message that the Bishop and church elders discuss frequently. And because of their focus on family it trickles down from the adults to the children easily.
 
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