Are there 2 kinds of Leftist philosophy?

[nitesnake]

The greatest interior evil might be presumption…with Christians happily walking the broad road of all kinds of sin and feeling God’s “unconditional love” has got their back.

Very well said. Leftist Christians equate socialist government intrusions on personal liberties with christian religious principles. There are many Catholics who happily vote for pro-abortion politicians and see no problem with that, for example.

 

[october_baby]

The way to understand leftist christians is they operate under the banner of “social justice”
which started out as movement of the progressive party around the 1880’s.
The way you can spot a “social justice” progressive is that they have no problem with
massive government spending on poverty,gay clergy, and very muted objection to abortion.
This started out as primarily as a protestant movement. But after Vatican II, the “modernists”
(progressives in catholic drag) used the code word “spirit of Vatican II” to inject progressive
“social justice” into the Catholic Church.

 

[Pugsly]

Very well said. Leftist Christians equate socialist government intrusions on personal liberties with christian religious principles. There are many Catholics who happily vote for pro-abortion politicians and see no problem with that, for example.

The greatest government intrusion on the poor right now is the US Government’s continued policy of printing trillions of dollars to buy our own worth-less debt. It has become a huge tax on the poor…as the price of milk and gas and other commodities continues to climb.

Leftism in America wants to have complete power…but doesn’t want to show how expensive that is…so they have been “hiding” the cost with various financial tricks that will collapse soon enough. Interest rates will rise, our debt burden will consume our GDP and EBT and alot of goodies will be withdrawn…leaving a very angry crowd…who will do what the cultural Left tells them…“burn the evil, greedy corporations down!”

 

[Pugsly]

Leftism is a fear based philosophy: it sees a world that is “red in tooth and claw”…and strives for safety via 3 converging paths. Path #1–fear-based…Survival ethics…the world is a dangerous place…I must do whatever it takes to survive, there is no morality higher than my survival. Thus, Lefties think it OK to dictate everything they think is SAFE…from how big a soda you can drink to rubberized play grounds…etc. Health and Saftey concerns explode when Leftism takes over. Path #2-- the fear of the Strong. The Strong will manipulate the Weak unless the Weak band together and control them. Thus, we see a fear of the “big” business, the “big” banks, those with “big” money…etc. Heck, these people fear WALMART. Path #3–Nature ethics…everything evolved randomly and without meaning…therefore all of nature is of equal worth.
All 3 of these paths converge into a modern day push for a wacky environmentalist big government protector of the Weak.
Now, a Christian should not live in fear at all. Christian hold human dignity and freedom as high priorities, not because we fear the “strong”…but because we honor the everlasting value of the human soul.
We pushed for safety nets against manipulations of the strong in business and society…but NOT out of fear. But because it was the right and moral thing to do…we were the force behind unions and human rights…and labor laws and suffergettes and civil rights movements.
Without God’s Law you merely have a fear-filled governmental reaction to society…which leads to a loss of freedom at each "crisis. The Left today will actually make up a crisis to gain more power over others…eg…global warming, the health care crisis in the US, the “obesity” crisis…and next Tuesday we will hear about the gun crisis and why executive orders have to be used (unconstitutionally) to override the normal political process.

 

[CompSciGuy]

You seem to take liberties to associate modern terminology with that which St. Paul wrote.

You state ‘fear-based and primarily concerned with self-preservation’ as solely connected to one view, yet conservatives seem more occupied with ‘self-preservation’; e.g. gun rights for defense, against immigration, against social programs, etc. etc. It seems to be a ‘me, me, me’ mentality, that defines the ‘self-preservation’ you speak of, in my opinion.

I don’t think that conservatism is inherently selfish. If you look at conservative philosophy you will find the end goal is to enhance society and promote the common welfare. Classic conservatism discourages dependence on the government and promotes individual responsibility, innovation and advancement, which ultimately leads to a better and more prosperous society as a whole. It still believes in helping the poor, that’s for sure, but not in financially helping just anyone who is capable of receiving a welfare check. Welfare should be reserved for those who need it, the disabled, the mentally infirmed, etc. I know that there are many factors for those in the “welfare mentality” but I don’t believe that throwing more money at them is going to make them better, only worse. It’s bad for them and it’s bad for society as a whole. They need a different kind of help.

 

[Pugsly]

I don’t think that conservatism is inherently selfish. If you look at conservative philosophy you will find the end goal is to enhance society and promote the common welfare. Classic conservatism discourages dependence on the government and promotes individual responsibility, innovation and advancement, which ultimately leads to a better and more prosperous society as a whole. It still believes in helping the poor, that’s for sure, but not in financially helping just anyone who is capable of receiving a welfare check. Welfare should be reserved for those who need it, the disabled, the mentally infirmed, etc. I know that there are many factors for those in the “welfare mentality” but I don’t believe that throwing more money at them is going to make them better, only worse. It’s bad for them and it’s bad for society as a whole. They need a different kind of help.

Spot on…Spot on!!!..CompSciGuy…thank you for a breath of fresh air.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I don’t think that conservatism is inherently selfish. If you look at conservative philosophy you will find the end goal is to enhance society and promote the common welfare. Classic conservatism discourages dependence on the government and promotes individual responsibility, innovation and advancement, which ultimately leads to a better and more prosperous society as a whole. It still believes in helping the poor, that’s for sure, but not in financially helping just anyone who is capable of receiving a welfare check. Welfare should be reserved for those who need it, the disabled, the mentally infirmed, etc. I know that there are many factors for those in the “welfare mentality” but I don’t believe that throwing more money at them is going to make them better, only worse. It’s bad for them and it’s bad for society as a whole. They need a different kind of help.

Yes, Christ taught that 'throwing more money at them would make them worse.

It sounds like a rationalization to justify, in my opinion.

No matter how you ‘explain’ it, it amounts to let the rich get richer and they’ll trickle money down to those in need, yet we’ll still have unemployed, homeless, malnourished children, uninsured majority, policies against the poor immigrants. lower tax percentages on the richest, and set tax rates on the rest.

A different kind of help, but no suggestions of what that might mean…

 

[wittgenstein]

Response to post 79
I strongly disagree that left wing churches ( Quakers and Unitarians for example) promote lust and covetousness.
Of course no one likes being manipulated. But when one is convinced that the elite rich were ordained by God to rule over us, it seems likely (to me at least) that one is being manipulated.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And how do you judge greed? $4 for a cup of coffee? Are the sellers and buyers both greedy?

Greed is philosophies of ‘me, me, me.’

 

[Pugsly]

Greed is philosophies of ‘me, me, me.’

Prodigal…I have lived on the street in America…I have walked with the Brothers/Father of Charity in Tijuana Mexico…I’ve been in some poor places of Mexico City.

I have a clue as to what REAL poverty looks like…and it ain’t here in America…where the poor have education, food, cars and cell phones and ready medical care (even if they can’t pay). My brother was homeless and had major surgery…the hospital quickly realized he couldn’t pay…and wrote it off.

Real poverty does not have safety nets at every turn.

Your post have the feel of someone afraid for the REAL POOR…someone looking at REAL poverty…battling 18th century capitalism.

Prodigal…I would direct you attention to the fear, worry and obvious resentment some Christians have toward the “rich”. Is that what Jesus wants of us?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigal…I have lived on the street in America…I have walked with the Brothers/Father of Charity in Tijuana Mexico…I’ve been in some poor places of Mexico City.

I have a clue as to what REAL poverty looks like…and it ain’t here in America…where the poor have education, food, cars and cell phones and ready medical care (even if they can’t pay). My brother was homeless and had major surgery…the hospital quickly realized he couldn’t pay…and wrote it off.

Real poverty does not have safety nets at every turn.

Your post have the feel of someone afraid for the REAL POOR…someone looking at REAL poverty…battling 18th century capitalism.

Prodigal…I would direct you attention to the fear, worry and obvious resentment some Christians have toward the “rich”. Is that what Jesus wants of us?

What Jesus wants is for us to give, to the poor, without qualifying, or rationalizing how poor they are.

You see, we have truly poor people in America, even if there are some worse off in other countries. We don’t refuse to help those in need in our country, because we know someone else who is poorer. If that were the case, there is always someone else more poor, freeing those who make such qualifications free to write off another group of people and thereby keep more of what they have.

I work on an ambulance in the US, and I assure you we have people in poverty, and in need of help.

Fear, worry; such as those who want to seal our borders, cut social programs, maintain gun rights above even our children’s safety? Everything you have labeled as ‘liberal’ is ironic, in my opinion. All of it can be applied to the ‘conservative’ philosophy.

 

[Pugsly]

OK…Prodigal…we will take up the gun issue as an example of how Leftism reacts out of fear and manipulation.

One man has a history of mental problems and the US gun laws keep him from guns…but his mom doesn’t lock them away from her crazy son…and this one individual goes utterly insane.

Leftists know it was an isolated incident…(that Chicago piles up more young dead children every 2 weeks)…but manipulate these childrens deaths to political advantage.

Leftism is emotions based…and apparantly dead white children are TOPS on the emotion scale…because nobody seems to care about 1 out of every 2 black children are aborted…or that thousands of black children are dying in gang fights.

 

[Pugsly]

Best gun control quote…"It is often impossible to find collective solutions to individual problems

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

OK…Prodigal…we will take up the gun issue as an example of how Leftism reacts out of fear and manipulation.

One man has a history of mental problems and the US gun laws keep him from guns…but his mom doesn’t lock them away from her crazy son…and this one individual goes utterly insane.

Leftists know it was an isolated incident…(that Chicago piles up more young dead children every 2 weeks)…but manipulate these childrens deaths to political advantage.

Leftism is emotions based…and apparantly dead white children are TOPS on the emotion scale…because nobody seems to care about 1 out of every 2 black children are aborted…or that thousands of black children are dying in gang fights.

I own guns and like to hunt; however, I fall short of believing Christians need guns to ‘save our lives.’ Isn’t that a fear, and an emotion, to believe one needs unrestricted gun rights for their own personal safety?

Of course, let’s go to abortion, and try to make it a racial issue, to protect our gun rights above all things, even if it minimizes an attack on a group of children. That seems to say, it’s an acceptable body count. They allow abortion, so we can allow guns and the continuous mass shootings, as if two wrongs somehow makes a right.

As Christians, we should be working to save every life possible, and not forsaking some because it might inconvenience our rights.

From mass shootings to gang gun fights, we have too many guns in this country, and they are way too often in the wrong hands. Do we need to work on the culture of death? Yes, and believing we need an armed society is a part of the culture of death.

I said, I am a hunter. When the day comes that I need a 30 round clip, or 100 round drum, is the day I will stop hunting.

 

[Pugsly]

What Jesus wants is for us to give, to the poor, without qualifying, or rationalizing how poor they are.

You see, we have truly poor people in America…

Sadly....sadly....we have Americans who are too crazy to collect their benefits, too drugged or drunk or dysfunctional to rise above hunger and chaotic lives.  yes...we have that kind of self-inflicted REAL POVERTY.  But still there are safety nets galore and charities looking to help.
The truly poor would give anything for a shot at that kind of life here in America!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Sadly…sadly…we have Americans who are too crazy to collect their benefits, too drugged or drunk or dysfunctional to rise above hunger and chaotic lives. yes…we have that kind of self-inflicted REAL POVERTY. But still there are safety nets galore and charities looking to help.
The truly poor would give anything for a shot at that kind of life here in America!

See, that’s where we differ; our views of people. You say, ‘foo crazy, too drugged or drunk or dysfunctional’ in a very judgmental way. I say, ‘no one grows up desiring to be, mentally unstable, to drugged, or drunk, or dysfunctional.’ No one grows up with a goal to live in poverty. We can’t offer a hand up, if we’re pushing them down at the same time.

The ‘truly poor’ would be viewed in the same light, if it were suggested that we also give them assistance, that might require a part of our taxes be distributed in that fashion.

The fear of conservatives also justifies that our taxes pay for weapons of mass destruction, but the ‘me, me, me’ mentality begrudges any taxes helping our fellow man. The ‘me, me, me’ elitism wants our borders sealed, at least for the poor immigrants, because they might take some of the all that is desired by those who would ostracize people based on their situations, a majority beyond their control.

I see as much wrong in what you’re espousing, as I do irony in what you say.

 

[Pugsly]

I own guns and like to hunt; however, I fall short of believing Christians need guns to ‘save our lives.’ Isn’t that a fear, and an emotion, to believe one needs unrestricted gun rights for their own personal safety?

Of course, let’s go to abortion, and try to make it a racial issue, to protect our gun rights above all things, even if it minimizes an attack on a group of children. That seems to say, it’s an acceptable body count. They allow abortion, so we can allow guns and the continuous mass shootings, as if two wrongs somehow makes a right.

As Christians, we should be working to save every life possible, and not forsaking some because it might inconvenience our rights.

From mass shootings to gang gun fights, we have too many guns in this country, and they are way too often in the wrong hands. Do we need to work on the culture of death? Yes, and believing we need an armed society is a part of the culture of death.

I said, I am a hunter. When the day comes that I need a 30 round clip, or 100 round drum, is the day I will stop hunting.

I’ve never fired a gun (a real gun) in my life. The USA is based on free people of judeo-christian morality that limit government and self-police their behavior…while looking after their brothers and sisters. Leftism has now displaced Judeo-Christian values in the American mainstream…1973 was the actual tipping point.

Ps…the 2nd Ammendment is not about hunting…it speaks of arming a civilian militia.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’ve never fired a gun (a real gun) in my life. The USA is based on free people of judeo-christian morality that limit government and self-police their behavior…while looking after their brothers and sisters. Leftism has now displaced Judeo-Christian values in the American mainstream…1973 was the actual tipping point.

Ps…the 2nd Ammendment is not about hunting…it speaks of arming a civilian militia.

We are Catholic Christians first. For me, God first, family second, community third, then country, and the world last. Politics doesn’t even play into the equation. Our obligations are to our fellow man, after God. We are to love ALL as He loves us. No where does He teach that we place ourselves first, then, if we’re willing, others later.

 

[Pugsly]

We are Catholic Christians first. For me, God first, family second, community third, then country, and the world last. Politics doesn’t even play into the equation. Our obligations are to our fellow man, after God. We are to love ALL as He loves us. No where does He teach that we place ourselves first, then, if we’re willing, others later.

Brother…if I were to list priorities, it would be similiar to your list:

God first/Truth
the Anawim that I encounter
my wife
my kids
myself
my country/political action/causes/threads like this etc

 

[Pugsly]

I really must be going for now…it was good talking with you Prodigal. I know you are a servent of the Lord and that gives me hope…because that is really what this post was investigating in the first place.

Peace Brother!