Are there any Protestants that abstain from pork?

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SDA2RC:
Flameburns,
As an Adventist for 29 years, I can assure you it is most certainly a doctrine. Fundamental Belief#22 states “…Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures.” "http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

Furthermore, the 10th baptismal vow of SDA’s states “10. Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; and will you honor God by caring for it, avoiding the use of that which is harmful; abstaining from all unclean foods; from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages; the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption; and from the misuse of or trafficking in narcotics or other drugs?”

SDA’s expand on this more in the book “Adventist’s Believe…” which is published by the church to define and explain the SDA Doctrines. An online version can be found at SDANet.Org and the link regarding unclean foods is here in this section: sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-21.htm

While being a vegetarian is not part of the Church doctrine, but only a recommendation, refraining from eating “unclean foods” such as pork, shrimp, crab, etc. is a requirement of the church.

Peace to all!
Merry Christmas!
Brandon
You’re addressing the wrong side of the issue to which I was responding. Adventists do not officially teach that failing to abstain from unclean foods will necessarily “send one to hell”. An Adventist might, for instance, be driven to eat pork in a time of crisis or shortage of other available food, for example, without incurring sin. Most moderate Adventists will agree that Godly non-Adventists who do not observe the dietary restrictions of the SDA’s will go to Heaven despite our pig-eating ways. STRICT Adventists, of course, expect to be the only ones in Heaven anyhow, so they will doubtless be confined to a fenced-in area surrounded by “Quiet, Please!” signs, so the rest of us don’t disturb them.:tsktsk: Please gnaw your pork ribs quietly, now;) . Thanks!

Hope this clarifies things.
 
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flameburns623:
You’re addressing the wrong side of the issue to which I was responding. Adventists do not officially teach that failing to abstain from unclean foods will necessarily “send one to hell”. An Adventist might, for instance, be driven to eat pork in a time of crisis or shortage of other available food, for example, without incurring sin. Most moderate Adventists will agree that Godly non-Adventists who do not observe the dietary restrictions of the SDA’s will go to Heaven despite our pig-eating ways. STRICT Adventists, of course, expect to be the only ones in Heaven anyhow, so they will doubtless be confined to a fenced-in area surrounded by “Quiet, Please!” signs, so the rest of us don’t disturb them.:tsktsk: Please gnaw your pork ribs quietly, now;) . Thanks!

Hope this clarifies things.
It is clear from what was provided that it is a no-no. It is sinful. No, the Adventists I knew would not eat it even in starving conditions. They were devout SDA’s.

People who do not observe the Sabbath are sinning. Only Sabbath-keepers are allowed into heaven. They may not say that officially, but it’s true. It boils down to the Ten Commandments, which are immutable - including the sabbath commandment. It is said to have been true before creation through to eternity.

It is a requirement for entrance to the pearly gates. Remember the Isaiah verse I shared with you? Only the wicked eat pork and rats. The righteous will follow the Ten Commandments and abide by the health laws.

And, given SDA2RC’s experience, I would say we should give his (or her) thoughts much weight and clarify what we believe we know with his (or her) experience and knowledge.

Peace…
 
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ahimsaman72:
It is clear from what was provided that it is a no-no. It is sinful. No, the Adventists I knew would not eat it even in starving conditions. They were devout SDA’s.

People who do not observe the Sabbath are sinning. Only Sabbath-keepers are allowed into heaven. They may not say that officially, but it’s true. It boils down to the Ten Commandments, which are immutable - including the sabbath commandment. It is said to have been true before creation through to eternity.

It is a requirement for entrance to the pearly gates. Remember the Isaiah verse I shared with you? Only the wicked eat pork and rats. The righteous will follow the Ten Commandments and abide by the health laws.

And, given SDA2RC’s experience, I would say we should give his (or her) thoughts much weight and clarify what we believe we know with his (or her) experience and knowledge.

Peace…
In the middle 1960’s, a Evangelical Protestant named Walter Martin entered into a dialogue with the SDA Church after the first edition of a major work by Martin had labeled the SDA Church a cult. One of the reasons for Martin’s crticisms were that the SDA Church preached exclusivity (they see themselves as the sole contemporary candidates for Heaven). Martin’s dialogue with the SDA’s led him to alter his views on the group, something for which Martin has long been criticised by other Evangelicals. His organization, which survives him, continues to label the SDA Church as ‘aberrant’ but not ‘cultic’.

In the dialogue between the SDA Church and Martin, the SDA Church distanced itself significantly from the idea that it’s members alone may achieve Heaven. It also distanced itself from the view that pork-eating or failure to observe the Seventh-day Sabbath bring the condemnation of hell upon someone. It is very important to recognize that the SDA Church, unlike many other sectarian groups, actually has a rather broad spectrum of views on theological issues. There are ‘liberal’ SDA’s who place little value upon the writings of the founder EG White, there are Evangelicals who make White’s interpretations subject to the Scriptures from which she claimed to have derived her doctrines; and there are traditionalist SDA’s who place a great premium upon White’s literature, placing it at nearly the same stature as Scripture. The latter group tend to dominate SDA broadcast media and many of the top leadership positions in the SDA Church, while the first group have suffered siginificant losses due to defections and disciplinary action. They do continue to exist and to publish their own journals, etcetera. As for the ‘Evangelical’ SDA’s–well, I really don’t know how easy it is any more to distinguish them from the hardcore supporters of EG White.

I was baptised into the SDA Church in 1981, a baptism I have never renounced though I attended for just a tad over a year and have never returned. I actually was developing a political consciousness at the same time that I joined the SDA Church, which led me to spend a great deal of time associating with leftists of a largely secular nature. By the time I was in college in '83, I no longer considered myself a believer in any faith, and when I ultimately returned to faith I never gave the SDA Church much serious thought. I have never kept up on the SDA’s as closely as I have kept up on the LDS Church, for example, and don’t profess myself a true ‘expert’ on either faith. I will concede that I have a much greater likelihood of getting something in the SDA Church ‘wrong’, but think that my views are widely shared by other Evangelicals who have done a more serious study of this group. I do think that, as with the Mormons, former SDA’s tend to get rather zealous in their antipathy towards the group, without necessarily being as careful or as fair-minded as they might be.
 
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ahimsaman72:
Go back and read that passage of Scripture. It is much more about gentiles and jews than clean vs. unclean meats. And then go ask an Orthodox Jew whether the Mosaic law is still binding or not. I would gather that they would quickly tell you that God’s laws to the Israelites were forever.

Peace…
yes it is primarily about jews and gentiles and it is about clean and unclean animals. God says to “kill and eat”. it seems to me to be about both (not either/or but both/and). the law is forever…and the law has been fulfilled in Jesus. Thus we are not bound by the letter of the law anymore, but the spirit of the law.

“everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial” -Paul

thus, while it might not be the healthies thing to eat “unclean” animals, it is no longer against the law of God.
 
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bengal_fan:
yes it is primarily about jews and gentiles and it is about clean and unclean animals. God says to “kill and eat”. it seems to me to be about both (not either/or but both/and). the law is forever…and the law has been fulfilled in Jesus. Thus we are not bound by the letter of the law anymore, but the spirit of the law.

“everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial” -Paul

thus, while it might not be the healthies thing to eat “unclean” animals, it is no longer against the law of God.
Hello bengal fan 🙂

I have always read the text as symbolism. God used the symbolism of clean/unclean meats to bring a deeper truth to Peter. What’s striking is that the disciples (except for Luke) for Jewish and they along with Jesus kept the Jewish laws as far as we can tell from the Scripture accounts.

Of course to Orthodox Jews, Jesus has not fulfilled the law, he was simply one of many who claimed to be the Messiah, and the triumphant ruler and bringer of peace has not appeared. There has been no change in the laws, neither can there be and neither could this man have been the Messiah foretold.

But then…that is another thing altogether…🙂

Peace…
 
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flameburns623:
You’re addressing the wrong side of the issue to which I was responding. Adventists do not officially teach that failing to abstain from unclean foods will necessarily “send one to hell”…
Hey Flame…
Nor do they officially teach it won’t send one to hell. Most SDA’s I know… and I know a lot… believe that if you know your not supposed to eat pork, but do anyway… then your not following Christ and his commandments. Refusing to “convert” your lifestyle after hearing the SDA Gospel is certainly a rejection of Christ in their mind, and hence one would go to hell. Not necessarily over the pork, but because they would say it is indicative of a larger spiritual issue, or else you would just obey the laws.
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flameburns623:
An Adventist might, for instance, be driven to eat pork in a time of crisis or shortage of other available food, for example, without incurring sin.
Never heard that in the SDA church. can you provide me with a citation? When I was SDA, I would have certainly felt that God either would have provided for me, or else I would die. Generally, most SDA’s are pretty black and white… its a sin or its not…
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flameburns623:
Most moderate Adventists will agree that Godly non-Adventists who do not observe the dietary restrictions of the SDA’s will go to Heaven despite our pig-eating ways.
Moderate Adventists? I think thats an Oxy-Moron… j/k. But your right… Most SDA’s believe that those of you who have not been enlightened about the pork issue, and therefore continue to eat piglets can still go to heaven, because you are not knowingly rejecting Christ’s commandments.
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flameburns623:
STRICT Adventists, of course, expect to be the only ones in Heaven anyhow, so they will doubtless be confined to a fenced-in area surrounded by “Quiet, Please!” signs, so the rest of us don’t disturb them.:tsktsk: Please gnaw your pork ribs quietly, now;) . Thanks! Hope this clarifies things.
ROTFL… well… them and the Waldensians… hehe

Brandon
 
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flameburns623:
His organization, which survives him, continues to label the SDA Church as ‘aberrant’ but not ‘cultic’.
Yes, Martin did conclude this… The Catholic Church has also found the SDA Church to be a Christian church with a Valid baptism. However, in practice, many SDA’s, in my opinion and experience, cross the line between orthodox and cult.
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flameburns623:
In the dialogue between the SDA Church and Martin, the SDA Church distanced itself significantly from the idea that it’s members alone may achieve Heaven…
I agree and disagree… They did allow that they alone are not the remnant, but still teach that those who continue to the end of time following Christ will come to believe in the basic and specific doctrines of the SDA Church, even if they never “hear of” the SDA Church organization. So, its kind of a catch 22, ie. “yea, it wont just be us… but everyone else will believe like we do!”
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flameburns623:
It also distanced itself from the view that pork-eating or failure to observe the Seventh-day Sabbath bring the condemnation of hell upon someone…
I have to disagree… it continues to be a sign of obedience on the SDA Church. At the SDA General Conference website, you can follow the link for the Biblical Research Institue, which is basically the sponsored Theology arm of the SDA General Conference. You will find their paper on Clean vs. Unclean meats by Dr. Shea, and it ends by saying “We have not found, therefore, any NT teaching or text which has voided the responsibility to distinguish between clean and unclean meats from animals of those particular types. It should remain as a continuing obligation of Christians.” adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Clean%20&%20Unclean%20Meats.htm

SDA’s do not teach either in doctrine or practice that eating pork is optional, it is an obligation of every Christian.
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flameburns623:
It is very important to recognize that the SDA Church, unlike many other sectarian groups, actually has a rather broad spectrum of views on theological issues.
Not that are recognized or tolerated by the Church. Dr. Desmond Ford was the last theologian I am aware of that tried to dissent and remain in the Church. You may remember the Glacier View fiasco, but suffice to say, he was rather abrubtly removed from his position of Dean of Theology at Pacific Union College and his ministerial credentials were revoked. At that time, many SDA Pastors were given the option to abide by what the church said… or move on. The official teachings and interpretation of the SDA Church does not leave much room to disagree… if you are aware of another theologian who has dissented and lived to tell about it, I would be very interested in researching their story.
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flameburns623:
There are ‘liberal’ SDA’s who place little value upon the writings of the founder EG White,.
In my experience, these are generally apathetic SDA’s not really “moderate”. A professing SDA who does not believe in EGW as a prophetess is denying the very baptismal vows and doctrinal statement that defines the church. It would be like calling someone a Catholic who disavows the Pope… it is one of the very things that defines us as a community seperate from others.
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flameburns623:
there are Evangelicals who make White’s interpretations subject to the Scriptures from which she claimed to have derived her doctrines
;,.
Agreed… and this is the official teaching of the Church at face value…however, the application of this is quite different than one might assume.

Continued -
 
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flameburns623:
and there are traditionalist SDA’s who place a great premium upon White’s literature, placing it at nearly the same stature as Scripture. The latter group tend to dominate SDA broadcast media and many of the top leadership positions in the SDA Church, while the first group have suffered siginificant losses due to defections and disciplinary action.
;,.
I suppose this a matter of perception, but I (and many of my SDA friends and family) find those that dominate the media (ie. 3ABN) as generally quite middle road SDA’s, if not a bit liberal for some. But alas, they dominate because the church is built on a democratic system, therefore the population of the church tends to elect like minded individuals. The SDA Leaders are orthodox in their SDA beliefs, becuase the majority of the Church is the same.
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flameburns623:
I will concede that I have a much greater likelihood of getting something in the SDA Church ‘wrong’, but think that my views are widely shared by other Evangelicals who have done a more serious study of this group. I do think that, as with the Mormons, former SDA’s tend to get rather zealous in their antipathy towards the group, without necessarily being as careful or as fair-minded as they might be.
Not sure if your last comment was directed at me, however, I generally do try to either provide citations from official sources or clarify my statement with"in my opinion" or “in my experience”. My wife and I grew up in SDA Churches and communities across the nation from each other, she in TN and I in UT. She attended SDA College, lived next to an SDA academy, and both of our families and closest friends are SDA.

I am not sure, but it almost seems as though you don’t think that what the SDA church claims it teaches in her statemetns and publications, is actually what most SDA’s believe? i.e. that it is more orthodox in it’s beliefs than what the actual statements say? It is interesting to note that the American SDA Church is actually VERY liberal when compared to the majority of the SDA Church, and when one realizes that the majority (nearly 90%) of SDA’s live outside the US… then one realizes more how conservative the church (not just the US) actually is!

Peace to all
Brandon
 
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ahimsaman72:
Hello bengal fan 🙂

I have always read the text as symbolism. God used the symbolism of clean/unclean meats to bring a deeper truth to Peter. Peace…
Ahinsaman,
I agree that it’s primariy application is symbolic of the Gentiles and Jews… however, I would also say, (using an arguement I heard Jimmy Akin use in a debate) that God would not have commanded Peter to do something (ie. eat unclean animals) even symbolically, if it were indeed intrinsically evil or against His express commands. Just as God would not command someone, even symbolically, to fornicate symbolic part of a larger teaching.

Therefore, I believe that because God did use this symbolically, it is representative of His view of unclean meats… ie. that there were no negative restrictions placed on them for Christians. 😉

Just my opinion.

Brandon
 
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SDA2RC:
Ahinsaman,
I agree that it’s primariy application is symbolic of the Gentiles and Jews… however, I would also say, (using an arguement I heard Jimmy Akin use in a debate) that God would not have commanded Peter to do something (ie. eat unclean animals) even symbolically, if it were indeed intrinsically evil or against His express commands. Just as God would not command someone, even symbolically, to fornicate symbolic part of a larger teaching.

Therefore, I believe that because God did use this symbolically, it is representative of His view of unclean meats… ie. that there were no negative restrictions placed on them for Christians. 😉

Just my opinion.

Brandon
Hello Brandon,

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I have enjoyed reading your posts on this thread. One of my good friends was SDA and I think highly of him personally and his beliefs. His zeal is refreshing and his convictions far superior than mine. I hope to read many more of your posts in the near future.

Peace…
 
SDA2RC:

I will concede that I am WAY out of the loop on the issues going on within the SDA Church. I doubt I mastered SDA theology in any depth, as I was largely distracted by my simulataneous discovery of leftist politics, which I strangely tried to meld together with SDA doctrine for a few months. As I will explain in this post and the one following, certain factors in my personal journey probably influence my reading of SDA teaching, and brought me in touch with an element of Adventism likely to be invisible to many mainstream or conservative SDA’s.
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SDA2RC:
Dr. Desmond Ford was the last theologian I am aware of that tried to dissent and remain in the Church. You may remember the Glacier View fiasco, but suffice to say, he was rather abrubtly removed from his position of Dean of Theology at Pacific Union College and his ministerial credentials were revoked. At that time, many SDA Pastors were given the option to abide by what the church said… or move on.
I’d heard that there was an SDA ‘purge’ some years ago–I think I joined AFTER Desmond Ford had already been forced out, but there was a small remaining group of SDA intellectuals maintaining their own journal(s) and keeping up the tradition of dissent. It was these folks that I thought I had heard were subjected to some further disciplinary action during the 1990’s.
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SDA2RC:
Most SDA’s I know believe that if you know you’re not supposed to eat pork, but do anyway… then you’re not following Christ and his commandments . . . . Never heard that in the SDA church. can you provide me with a citation? When I was SDA, I would have certainly felt that God either would have provided for me, or else I would die.
I do believe that the question of eating pork to survive came up on the main SDA apologetics program. (Sorry–I am forgetting the name of the organization, but it is a rough equivalent to CatholicAnswersLive! You probably can recall it easier than I). In the middle 1990’s I lived in the city limits of St. Louis and could get 3ABN television, which I have missed ever since. I didn’t return to the Adventist Church, but enjoyed their programs on health issues and even some of their polemical programs. Anyhow, whomever the host of the apologetics program is, he made a point that in an extreme situation, eating of pork would be preferable to starvation. For that matter, he pointed out that those people years ago who survived a plane crash partly by resorting to cannibalizing those who did not survive were also not guilty of sin.
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SDA2RC:
Not sure if your last comment was directed at me, however, I generally do try to either provide citations from official sources or clarify my statement with"in my opinion" or “in my experience” . . . .I am not sure, but it almost seems as though you don’t think that what the SDA church claims it teaches in her statemetns and publications, is actually what most SDA’s believe? i.e. that it is more orthodox in it’s beliefs than what the actual statements say?
Nothing I have said was directed at you, particularly. My observation was that being a long-time member of a controversial group which one comes to believe is mistaken seems to inspire considerable fervency–but that I am not convinced that it guarantees the former member will be careful or accurate in how they depict their former faith. Giving citations of ‘official’ documents or writings isn’t useful if such citations don’t represent how the group actually understands, explains, or applies it’s teachings or practice. The ‘paradigm shift’ which is involved in converting seems to very often distort the convert’s perceptions, somehow.

I know few Evangelicals who would recognize Scott and Kimberly Hahn’s descriptions of Evangelicalism as they describe it in their book “Rome Sweet Home”, for example. NOT that htey are unfair, but there are some real gaps in what they talk about as problems for them which simply don’t appear to me to be troublesome at all for most Evangelicals. The questions they claim plagued them simply never enter the consciousness of most Evangelicals and it felt to me that the Hahns read back into their previous lives things which really would not have been on their minds while they actually lived and believed as Evangelicals. In some way which is difficult to describe, the conversion process causes a loss of perspective, a loss of the ability to appreciate certain nuances of a former faith which would have been important while one was still an adherent of that faith. Thomas Howard is one of the few converts to somehow avoid that loss of perspective, IMHO. Most converts however seem to sound more than a few false notes in recounting their former beliefs, no matter how technically accurate their presentations are.
 
SDA’s do not teach either in doctrine or practice that eating pork is optional, it is an obligation of every Christian.
This is an example of missing nuances, though in a different context. I never said the SDA Church teaches that abstaining from pork is ‘optional’. My point is that some SDA teachers have suggested that Christians who are ignorant of the obligation to abstain from pork are not engaged in sin, at least so long as such ignorance is not willful. This was one of the issues I think got covered pretty thoroughly in “Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine”, the book which Dr. Walter Martin used as a primary source to decide how orthodox or unorthodox the SDA are. It’s been years since I’ve seen the book–it was on the shelf of my university library which is where I read it, long after having defected from Adventism. I am fairly confident however that it does cover the bases on this matter as I have set them forth.
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SDA2RC:
I suppose this a matter of perception, but I (and many of my SDA friends and family) find those that dominate the media (ie. 3ABN) as generally quite middle road SDA’s, if not a bit liberal for some . . . . It is interesting to note that the American SDA Church is actually VERY liberal when compared to the majority of the SDA Church, and when one realizes that the majority (nearly 90%) of SDA’s live outside the US… then one realizes more how conservative the church (not just the US) actually is!
I am uncertain how to take this. On the one hand you suggest I am characterizing the views of the SDA Church on the consumption of pork in too-liberal a light. On the other hand you speak of 3ABN and the leadership of the SDA Church as being ‘too liberal’. May I suggest that your own very-conservative brand of SDA faith was self-selecting to exclude from your acquaintance those who held to more moderate views?

When I converted to the SDA Church I was simulataneously becoming political and wearing the fact on my sleeve to some extent. My pastors, knowing my intention to go to college, encouraged me to check out several SDA colleges, one very very conservative one in Tennessee and another much more moderate one in Michigan. The college advisors at both places were at pains to introduce me to college professors whose views would have been on the fringes of SDA thought–not a major issue since most were doing their work in secular fields outside of the direct purview of the SDA Church. Most of these professors were very comfortable with the ideas I was exploring, though they warned me that if I came to their campus, I would be something of a lone voice in a campus environment much more friendly to Reagan Republicans than to guys who were trying to muddle their way through Das Kapital. (I eventually dropped out of Adventism and went to a secular college instead–a small former Catholic college btw, rather noted for it’s liberalism since it had renounced it’s affilations with the RCC).

While still involved in Adventism I also met a few of the more-doctrinaire and conservative Adventists. These were the kinds of folks who spend much of their time convinced that the leadership of the SDA Church is about a week away from total apostasy, after which the Time of Jacob’s Trouble will get ushered in. Most of them hoped to either convert me to their personal pet conspiracy ideology or else see me brought before a church council of some sort for discipline. Since I left on my own, neither happened. I did however see that there is indeed something of a spectrum of attitudes and beliefs about the SDA faith within Adventism itself. Generally, the stricter Adventists disparage the moderates for their lack of zeal and piety; the moderates and liberals look down their noses at the conservatives for being intellectually dense and rigid. Which isn’t too different from other sects or denominations in my experience.
 
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ahimsaman72:
I have always read the text as symbolism. God used the symbolism of clean/unclean meats to bring a deeper truth to Peter.
i agree that there is symbolism inherent in the account, but God would not even symbolically command some one to do something that was wrong. it is clear that this is also God communicating that is ok now to eat food that was once declared “unclean”?
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ahimsaman72:
Of course to Orthodox Jews, Jesus has not fulfilled the law, he was simply one of many who claimed to be the Messiah, and the triumphant ruler and bringer of peace has not appeared. There has been no change in the laws, neither can there be and neither could this man have been the Messiah foretold.

But then…that is another thing altogether…🙂

Peace…
definitely another thing altogether. to Christians (of which i fall into) Jesus has fulfilled the law. this may be blashemy to some, but truth to others. ultimately only one (or none) is right. i’m banking on it being Jesus. if i’m wrong, i will find that out after i die. if i’m right, many others will find it out. i don’t take joy in that, it is just a fact. bottom line is that i agree that there is symbolism in the text as well as a literal element which i believe is true throughout the entire scriptures. for example, Jesus literally (i believe) rose from the dead and walked around and was seen by others and ate with others…etc. But there is a symbolism in that. Jesus rising from the dead symbolizes victory over death and the fact that His sacrifice accomplished what it needed to.
 
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flameburns623:
I’d heard that there was an SDA ‘purge’ some years ago… It was these folks that I thought I had heard were subjected to some further disciplinary action during the 1990’s. .
Yes, there was a crack down on “independent” ministries etc in the early 90’s, but not anywhere near the Glacier View events.
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flameburns623:
Anyhow, whomever the host of the apologetics program is, he made a point that in an extreme situation, eating of pork would be preferable to starvation. For that matter, he pointed out that those people years ago who survived a plane crash partly by resorting to cannibalizing those who did not survive were also not guilty of sin.
I would certainly agree with that… however, I know many who would not.
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flameburns623:
Nothing I have said was directed at you, particularly. My observation was that being a long-time member of a controversial group which one comes to believe is mistaken seems to inspire considerable fervency… Giving citations of ‘official’ documents or writings isn’t useful if such citations don’t represent how the group actually understands, explains, or applies it’s teachings or practice. The ‘paradigm shift’ which is involved in converting seems to very often distort the convert’s perceptions, somehow. .
I understand your concern about former members being somewhat jaded, there may be some who are, I do not believe that I am, but I do try to be brutally honest about my experiences. I suppose we see different value in the mainstream documentation of the Church. I see it from my experience within the chuch as VERY representative of the beliefs of those that both my wife and I grew up with, were taught in school, and what our friends believe, albiet a bit more liberal. We both had a broad SDA experience with SDA schools, missions, friends, family etc. If I am understanding you correctly, you believe that maybe there has been a shift in attitude and although the SDA’s still have these things on the “books” their actualy application or understanding is more moderate? If that is true, I suppose I am not sure what your basing your conclusions on?
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flameburns623:
The questions they claim plagued them simply never enter the consciousness of most Evangelicals and it felt to me that the Hahns read back into their previous lives things which really would not have been on their minds while they actually lived and believed as Evangelicals…
Interesting… Even being an SDA I could relate easily to the struggles they mentioned (with the exception of birth control, which never was an issue or crossed our minds) but the theological issues were something I wrestled with. I remember in my late teens and early twenties, my friends, family and I struggling with the doctrine of the Trinity and how if it could be substantiated from scripture, etc…etc… and the process continued through most of the basic protestant issues.
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flameburns623:
In some way which is difficult to describe, the conversion process causes a loss of perspective, a loss of the ability to appreciate certain nuances of a former faith which would have been important while one was still an adherent of that faith. Thomas Howard is one of the few converts to somehow avoid that loss of perspective, IMHO. Most converts however seem to sound more than a few false notes in recounting their former beliefs, no matter how technically accurate their presentations are.
I guess I see your position as very subjective. While I realize what your saying, I am having a hard time understanding it’s foundation. I may be wrong and please correct me if I am, but it seems like at least in my case, your saying

“SDA’s don’t REALLY believe and live what they say they do because there has been a shift of understanding… and if you claim that they do actually believe and practice what they preach, your not being really fair because your an EX-SDA and you may be looking at this from a distorted perspective.”

But on the other hand, you have not really provided any basis for your statements… I am truly confused at where your coming from.

Peace,
Brandon
 
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flameburns623:
My point is that some SDA teachers have suggested that Christians who are ignorant of the obligation to abstain from pork are not engaged in sin, at least so long as such ignorance is not willful…
And I agreed with that in an earlier post. If one is ignorant they are not accountable for their consumption of bacon. However, this “loophole” is an exception to the rule and does not weaken the fact that the SDA’s still teach that anyone who knows that commandment regarding clean vs unclean cannot in good faith eat pork, it is a commandment binding on all Christians. Many SDA’s do not believe there is a reason, except for wilful ignorance, in our society where there is a Bible in every hotel room and a library in every city for one not knowing. In my experience this loophole was applied to those living outside of an educated society who have not been introduced to the Bible or have access to educational materials.
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flameburns623:
This was one of the issues I think got covered pretty thoroughly in “Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine”, the book which Dr. Walter Martin used as a primary source to decide how orthodox or unorthodox the SDA are. It’s been years since I’ve seen the book–it was on the shelf of my university library which is where I read it, long after having defected from Adventism. I am fairly confident however that it does cover the bases on this matter as I have set them forth…
Actually in QOD the reason for not eating pork that is given is that it is basically just healthier. That book was pulled from publication soon after the Walter Martin investigation was over, because of the outcry of the membership about how it misrepresented church teaching in order to get a favorable review. After several decades it was recently re-published annotated and expanded by another SDA theologian. I have a copy of both, it is interesting to read the two. The former is much more politically correct than the latter.

In fact it was pulled so quickly after Martin published his correction on Adventism that Martin wrote back to the leadership of the SDA Church and asked them why they ceased production, if they still supported it, and what their real stance to EGW was. According to Martin, he never received fully satisfactory answers after that. Here is one account of this iun an interview with Martin by and SDA magazine. millennium.fortunecity.com/lincoln/666/letters/page8.html
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flameburns623:
I am uncertain how to take this. On the one hand you suggest I am characterizing the views of the SDA Church on the consumption of pork in too-liberal a light. On the other hand you speak of 3ABN and the leadership of the SDA Church as being ‘too liberal’. May I suggest that your own very-conservative brand of SDA faith was self-selecting to exclude from your acquaintance those who held to more moderate views? …
I probably did not explain my position well regarding 3ABN, it is viewed by many of the SDA’s I know as liberal in it’s practices (ie. wearing makeup, some jewlry, etc.) but not in it’s doctrinal teachings, I think, as do most people I know, that it fairly represents the mainline SDA church. Likewise with the Church leadership.

I think that is humorous you think I had a conservative experience, since I have generally been told that I was somewhat a liberal in Adventism. LOL My wife also grew up in an area and in a church that was certainly not considered conservative, those who wanted a conservative SDA church go to the church across town… LOL But alas… maybe.

Anyway… I agree there are people who are cafeteria SDA’s who pick and choose what they want… just as there are cafeteria Catholics… but all in all, in my experience the mainstream church, both within the country, and certainly outside of the country are very much aligned with the current views of the GC.

Peace,
brandon
 
I’ll try to respond to some of this but in many ways we’re hijacking this thread. My apologies to the OP.
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SDA2RC:
I see it from my experience within the chuch as VERY representative of the beliefs of those that both my wife and I grew up with, were taught in school, and what our friends believe, albiet a bit more liberal. We both had a broad SDA experience with SDA schools, missions, friends, family etc.
My own experience was very brief and is 25 years old. I think I have made it clear that I don’t think my experience WAS representative of Mainstream SDA activity. Because of where my head was at at the time, I met people on the margins. How many active SDA’s did you meet who are covert homosexuals? I met two, which is about 2 more than most Adventists meet in a lifetime, just as an example. The head of the Social Science department in one SDA college freely admitted studying Karl Marx rather deeply and using Marxian ideas in disguised form for in his work. He also expressed serious doubts about EG White’s methodology in composing her writings–spoke of them as heavily plagiarised in fact. I met Evangelical Adventists who were quite uncomfortable with EG White as well though they sometimes referred to her works where they felt her views conformed to Scripture. On the other hand, I also met Adventists who seemed almost to place EG White’s writings ABOVE the authority of Scripture. These were the folks who were terribly uncomfortable knowing that I had been accepted into the SDA Church, the ones who hoped I would either convert wholesale to their own ideas, often quite quirky, or that I would just leave the SDA Church altogether.

Such ideas would NOT get circulated much in an SDA Sabbath-School class, would not be promulgated from SDA pulpits, would be found rarely if ever in an SDA-sponsored elementary or secndary school, would not be encouraged in an SDA mission, would not in fact be commonly talked about among what I am gong to style ‘chapel Adventists’. (The term is borrowed from Mormonism, about which I am much more familiar, and refers to the fact that the Mormonism found in LDS chapels and officially-sponsored LDS events tends to have it’s own brand of 'PC", with certain issues never broached in such outlets. Only on the Internet or in certain academic circles can one find differing opinions in the LDS Church). All of this amounts to something on the order of an SDA ‘samizdat’ or underground current of Adventism which I brushed against very lightly simply because I was fairly open about my experimental views. Where you and I are diverging involves the very different way each of us came at the SDA denomination.
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SDA2RC:
If I am understanding you correctly, you believe that maybe there has been a shift in attitude and although the SDA’s still have these things on the “books” their actualy application or understanding is more moderate? If that is true, I suppose I am not sure what your basing your conclusions on?
Here I’m on much safer grounds. I am basing my opinion on the opinions expressed by Dr. Walter Martin, who derived his views from extended interaction with several prominent SDA representatives and from Martin’s review of “Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine”. I am also basing my impressions upon what the Christian Research Institute and other reliable apologists have continued to say about Adventism: that it is abberant, that it can be extremely sectarian and exclusivist, that Christians best advised to NOT join the Adventists nor remain in an Adventist Church, but that the Adventist Church CAN BE orthodox, DOES include moderates and Evangelicals, and is within the larger pale of Christian orthodoxy, despite it’s extemists.
 
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SDA2RC:
I remember in my late teens and early twenties, my friends, family and I struggling with the doctrine of the Trinity and how if it could be substantiated from scripture, etc…etc… and the process continued through most of the basic protestant issues.
I am having trouble conveying my point somehow. It might help if you were familiar with the use (or misuse) of the concept of ‘paradigm shift’, popularised by Thomas Kuhn in his book “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions”. Kuhn’s point–which he intended only as a way of explaining how SCIENCE ITSELF changes over time–is that people start out studying a subject with some prior assumptions about what they are going to find, how they are going to sift what is true from what is false, etcetera. The best example from Kuhn’s book is the idea of geocentricism, which dominated astronomy for centuries. This constituted the ‘paradigm’ of astronomical research, and based upon it’s ideas, a vast number of competing theories were developed to explain irregularities in how the heavenly bodies–the planets, moon, and stars–moved in the sky.

The assumption for many long years was that someone would eventually put together a geocentric model which resolved all of the irregularities which were being observed. Instead–a revolution occurred. Copernicus proposed the ‘heliocentric’ theory, which resolved al of the known irregularities much more efficiently. Altough Copernicus was persecuted for his views, they were so attractive that they were eventually embraced. Today we can scarcely imagine anyone proposing anything except a helocentric view of the solar system, and few if any would purpose to defend such a view.

Kuhn tried to show in his book that in virtually every field of science and technology, ‘paradigm shifts’ have been crucial to the progress of knowledge. That paradigms are created, are pursued for a time so long as they are ‘fruitful’ and create few anomalies; but, as anomalies multiply and the paradigm becomes less ‘fruitful’, a ‘paradigm shift’ must occur if the field is to continue to be interesting and produce useful results. Oddly, while a paradigm is useful and fruitful, anomalies tend to be ignored or even treated as non-existent; as the paradigm grows old, the anomalies become apparent, but the ‘old guard’ tend to hold out hope that they can be resolved WITHIN the framework of the prevailing framework. Only after the old paradigm is replaced by a new one can one clearly see just how flawed and troubled the old paradigm truly was.

What happens in relgious conversion seems to me to resemble the ‘paradigm shifts’ which occur in scientific fields. So long as one is comfortably within the grip of a particular theological ‘paradigm’ certain questions never even occur to most adherents. Only as one begins to question one’s theological position do ‘anomalies’ even seem apparent, and usually it is only with hindsight–AFTER one leaves one religious ‘paradigm’ for another–that one sees those anomalies clearly. Keep in mind that I am using the language of Thomas Kuhn in a way he never intended–he strongly disliked the apropriation of his ideas to describe changes in areas outside of the area he addressed. However, I’m not the first to make the sorts of observations I am spelling out here.

My problem with much of the ‘convert literature’ is that the authors seem to me to ‘read backwards’ into their former faith issues which I don’t think ever are a problem to faithful adherents of that faith. Hence, Scott and Kimberly Hahn raise as issues things meaningful to them NOW as Roman Catholics, but which I have a hard time crediting as being issues for them when they were convinced Evangelicals. Their autobiography of course was not a theological treatise and I am sure they were just hitting the ‘high points’ of the questions they pursued. But it still struck me as not authentic in how they represented their struggles AS PROTESTANTS with questions which really are relevant only to Roman Catholics.

The same is true with many of the stories collected by Peter Madrid in his ‘Surprised By Truth’ books: there is a false note in those accounts in many casess, not that the people are ‘lying’ about what they felt or thought, but that they seem to be putting a ‘spin’ on the issues which their fellow-sectaries would not have experienced. Hope this is at least as transparent as a good glass of Mississippi mud.
 
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flameburns623:
Adventism: that it is abberant, that it can be extremely sectarian and exclusivist, that Christians best advised to NOT join the Adventists nor remain in an Adventist Church, but that the Adventist Church CAN BE orthodox, DOES include moderates and Evangelicals, and is within the larger pale of Christian orthodoxy, despite it’s extemists.
I agree… 🙂 Foundationally it is a Christian religion with unorthodox teachings and practices… but Christian nonetheless.

Peace
Brandon
 
One last thought:
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SDA2RC:
I agree there are people who are cafeteria SDA’s who pick and choose what they want… just as there are cafeteria Catholics… but all in all, in my experience the mainstream church, both within the country, and certainly outside of the country are very much aligned with the current views of the GC.
I have a different take on ‘dissidents’ versus ‘cafeteria Christians’ of whatever ilk. Roman Catholics or SDA’s or Mormons who argue for changes on principle are NOT engaged in ‘cafeteria religion’. The ‘cafeteria Catholics’ ‘cafeteria Adventists’ or whatever are those who pick-and-choose based upon special pleading, with no overarching principle involved. An Adventist who eats pork because ‘my doctor says it’s okay, so Ellen White must’ve been mistaken’, for example. As opposed to someone who argues that EG White misunderstood the Scriptural texts involved and that the SDA Church should therefore set aside this aspect of Adventist teaching–even if the dissident thinker themselves does not actually choose to eat pork so long as it is an official policy of the SDA Church to abstain therefrom. Obviously, either Adventist might be subjected to SDA church discipline, but the one is simply making a lifestye choice out of convenience, the other is making a principled statement in favor of change.

I am not arguing that the SDA Church in America or elsewhere has changed it’s position on the consumption of pork, nor that SDA’s in some churches are not very strict indeed. I am positing that some SDA churches and some pastors, and more than a few SDA intellectuals, are less strict; that some SDA’s are more moderate in their understandings, etcetera. NONE of the SDA Churches in my experience would suggest that an Adventist is free to eat pork. Many whom I knew however did not feel that non-Adventist Christians were in jeapardy of hellfire for not observing SDA strictures. Most did feel that as the End Times grow nearer, the teachings of Adventism would become clearer to non-Adventist Christians so that by the time we would be in the ‘Time of Jacob’s Trouble’, virtually no Christians would remain who did not observe the seventh-day Sabbath, strictures on diet, and so forth.
 
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