Are there any "saintly" atheists?

[PRmerger]

Are there any historical figures who have publicly professed their atheism and were saintly individuals? By saintly, I mean in the same way that, say, Maximilian Kolbe was saintly in that he gave up his life for another.

Certainly, the point of this thread is not to question whether atheists can be good moral people. Of course they can!

I just want to know if there’s any atheists in history who were “martyrs” for another person–esp a stranger.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

This is a difficult one to answer. Atheists are not generally known to be organized for good works, or for anything else for that matter. The few atheist groups that are around tend to exist for the sake of offering each other moral support and bashing religion.

The ACLU, which contains quite a few atheists, is constantly promoting civil rights, but is notably silent on the rights of the unborn. I’m not aware of any martyrs in that group. Most of them are well-paid lawyers.

Certain larger groups exist that don’t call themselves atheist, but that mostly think like atheists and agnostics, such as the Unitarian Universalists (I know this from having belonged to this group in the 1970s). You might find some people in that “church” involved in some kind of charitable work, but doubtfully of the kind we think of when we think of Mother Teresa or Damien of Molokai.

Perhaps an atheist is needed to answer your question more fully.

 

[vera_dicere]

The only “good” atheists I know of are the ones who are in “Atheitists and Agnostics for Life” a Pro-Life organisation. I know one of the aggies from another board and he’s quite a good guy.

Just not accepting of Jesus et cetera.

 

[Junebug999]

i wouldn’t think of an atheist as saintly. I’d think of them as needing God’s will being done in their life.

 

[MegaTherion]

Are there any historical figures who have publicly professed their atheism and were saintly individuals? By saintly, I mean in the same way that, say, Maximilian Kolbe was saintly in that he gave up his life for another.

Certainly, the point of this thread is not to question whether atheists can be good moral people. Of course they can!

I just want to know if there’s any atheists in history who were “martyrs” for another person–esp a stranger.

Well, certainly there are atheists who have given up their lives for causes and organizations. Consider members of the armed services who are atheists (there are some organizations for them, such as the “Atheists in Foxholes” group). I would say that devoting your life to serving your country is an act of self-sacrifice. Ditto all the atheists who are firefighters, policemen, etc.

Or consider the fact that most atheist parents would be willing to die for their children (like most theist parents).

But keep in mind that atheism isn’t a thing in itself, it’s not in and of itself something to die for. Atheists who give up their lives would be have to be motivated by something else, like cause, a loved one, an organization, etc. In other words, atheism wouldn’t be the motivating factor, so it would be wrong to think of such people as atheist martyrs or something like that.

I can’t think of any famous examples, but there have doubtless been countless non-famous examples throughout history (unless Socrates counts – if he existed, he’s an example of an atheist who was willing to go to his death).

To address a larger point, I’m not so sure I agree with the idea that sacrificing your life for a total stranger is good or even moral. Would you be willing to do that? Why or why not?

 

[ora_pro_nobis]

I know quite a few atheists, and most of the them are very kind and considerate people - they give up their free time to help others, they tend to think the best of others, and one even forgave the man that killed her son.

Of course, these people I have mentioned are dear friends, and I don’t think I’m friends with any outright nasty people, but even so, I don’t think Christians have the monopoly on goodness.

They’re doing the good works bit, we should pray for the faith bit for them!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

MegaTherion

To address a larger point, I’m not so sure I agree with the idea that sacrificing your life for a total stranger is good or even moral. Would you be willing to do that? Why or why not?

This is a point that has been debated in many forums … that atheism is empty of any charge that we should do good to one another, even to strangers when we are able. Atheism gives no guidance or thrust in this direction because it says nothing about love and morality.

But theism says a great deal about morality, and you cannot be a true theist without being a moral person responding to the Sermon on the Mount and the injunction that we treat strangers like our own, and “love one another as I have loved you.”

The history of the Church’s charitable institutions going all the way back to the early Church are proof that theism, not atheism, is the main impetus to good works that lead sometimes even to martyrdom.

As to sacrificing ourselves to total strangers, there are none. Every single person is made in the image of God and is worthy of our compassion. If you know God, you cannot fail to see Him in every “stranger.”

 

[PRmerger]

But keep in mind that atheism isn’t a thing in itself, it’s not in and of itself something to die for. Atheists who give up their lives would be have to be motivated by something else, like cause, a loved one, an organization, etc. In other words, atheism wouldn’t be the motivating factor, so it would be wrong to think of such people as atheist martyrs or something like that.

Right. I guess my question is would an atheist be motivated *by love *to do something totally selfless, like giving up his life for another?

That is, would an atheist ever do what Maximilian Kolbe did?

 

[PRmerger]

To address a larger point, I’m not so sure I agree with the idea that sacrificing your life for a total stranger is good or even moral. Would you be willing to do that? Why or why not?

Well, Mega–I think you have made a point which ties in beautifully with our other thread…

Simply to sacrifice your life for a total stranger is probably not good or even moral, if you’re an atheist. But Christ said “he who loses his life for my sake will find it”. So if you do it for Love of God, then it’s the ultimate moral act.

 

[MegaTherion]

Right. I guess my question is would an atheist be motivated *by love *to do something totally selfless, like giving up his life for another?

That is, would an atheist ever do what Maximilian Kolbe did?

Well, in answer to the first question, yes, I think that many atheists would indeed be motivated by love to give up their lives for another. Ask an atheist who is the parent of a child, and you’ll likely get the same answer you’d probably get from a theist parent.

Love is love. It doesn’t matter if the person in love believes in a god or not.

If you’re (more specifically) asking whether atheists would give up their lives for a total stranger, I think the average atheist would be just as unwilling to do so as the average theist would be.

There are almost always exceptions, but when we talk about groups of people in general, people (whether they believe in gods or not) seem unwilling to give their lives for strangers. Do you blame them?

And like I said, I’m not convinced that dying for a stranger is the height of morality. I highly approve of doing things to help strangers, though, but dying seems quite a bit above and beyond the call of duty.

I’m sure that you’re aware that there are indeed atheist philanthropists (like Bill Gates, who gives millions to charity every year), nonreligious charities to which atheists donate money, and atheists who perform random acts of kindness in their daily lives, simply to make life better for everyone, to build the kind of society that we want to be a part of.

What about soldiers (both atheist and theist) who die for the sake of millions of their countrymen whom they will never meet? Or is that too abstract for your question?

Those are all actions of self-sacrifice that both atheists and theists engage in. The example of someone who willingly dies for a complete stranger is both rare and extreme (and possibly not a moral act), and it is something that most people (theist or atheist) would not engage in.

Charlemagne:

atheism is empty of any charge that we should do good to one another, even to strangers when we are able. Atheism gives no guidance or thrust in this direction because it says nothing about love and morality.

Strictly speaking, theism is empty of moral imperatives as well because it’s just a position on one question. It’s one thing to be a theist (to believe in a god); it’s another thing to choose a specific religion, to be a moral person, to participate in society in a civilized fashion.

Similarly, it’s one thing to be an atheist (to lack a belief in gods); it’s another thing to choose to be a moral person, to participate in society in a civilized fashion, etc.

 

[Dameedna]

Right. I guess my question is would an atheist be motivated *by love *to do something totally selfless, like giving up his life for another?

Most people who give up their lives for another, do it without even thinking. It’s usually reactionary.

Athiests, have however given up any dream of immortality for the sake of something much bigger…IE truth.

And that is a truth, that belongs to every human, even when it costs them their cherished beliefs. My friend…they don’t just give up their “lives” for humanity. They give up their desires for an eternal life…for a truth that humanity needs to survive.

Give up your dreams of immortality, and then get back to me…about what constitutes a saint.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Dameedna

Athiests, have however given up any dream of immortality for the sake of something much bigger…IE truth.

Why is an unproven truth (that there is no God) that offers despair much bigger than another unproven truth (faith in God) that offers hope?

And what would such a sacrifice of hope have to do with cultivating saintliness in atheists?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

MegaTherion
*
Strictly speaking, theism is empty of moral imperatives as well because it’s just a position on one question. It’s one thing to be a theist (to believe in a god); it’s another thing to choose a specific religion, to be a moral person, to participate in society in a civilized fashion.*

Theism is never a position on one question. You will never find belief in God that does not carry with it a set of moral values.

Where did you get this odd notion that theism (belief in a Lawgiver) is not directly connected with belief in Laws?

 

[Nepenthe]

Please remember - one cannot prove a negative, and the vast majority of nontheists of all stripes would not assert a statement like "There is no God’ any more than they would assert “There are no pink, nervegas-spewing dragons.” There might be! Who knows? The universe is very, very, VERY big! They might well assert “I have no/insufficient evidence to support the existence of either of those things” however.

If, on the other hand, one asserts that there is a God, or pink poisonous dragons, or anything else, though, the burden of proof falls upon the person making the assertion.

Oh, and nonbelievers in such things as the afterlife certainly don’t give up hope, as such. They simply discipline themselves to confine their hopes to the life they evidently have and potentially the lives that other people hopefully will have in the future, rather than wishfully thinking that there is anything afterward. There might be! Again, who knows? All we can do is find out when we do croak, which we will. (Personally I find the idea of simply dying more comforting, to be quite honest). But again, without supporting evidence, we have no (ie, vanishingly little, if that) reason to think such a thing as an afterlife exists.

One thing we are pretty sure about is that everyone and everything dies eventually, since there is overwhelming evidence of that and precious little, if any, evidence to the contrary. You might evade the IRS, but thermodynamics? Good luck with that, and please do inform the rest of us if you manage it.

 

[Nepenthe]

Ooo, I thought of one! How about Carl Sagan? Not only did he make excellent contributions to his field of inquiry, but his warmth, compassion and pleasant, insightful wit inspired and continue to inspire many, both theists and nontheists alike. He concerned himself far more with clarification of Big Concepts, dispelling unwarranted fears, and promoting kindness, integrity and understanding among all humankind than ‘denying God’, all while remaining decent, humble and genuinely caring.

Most areligious people who do wonderful acts of intellection and moral contribution do not bring attention to themselves in the ‘Look at meeee! I’m a Saintly Atheist!’ sense, either because they don’t think their lack of belief in the supernatural is especially relevant to the good that they do, or they fear censure from those who are religious. Sagan was a humble man, as well as a very brave one.

I just remembered - I actually ran across him at the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory once. I was so happy to meet the man who inspired me as a child to study the sciences with as much passion as the arts, and yet I didn’t feel at all awkward - he was simply a rumpled professor happily chatting away with a bunch of other rumpled professors and graduate students in varying states of nervous breakdown, as grad students often are. It was really fun to stand in that little group and listen to what all those people were discussing.

 

[Leela]

How about Mother Teresa for saintly atheist?

It turns out that the most celebrated exponent Christian dogmatism in a century, had her doubts about the existence of God:

"Lord, my God, who am I that You should forsake me? The Child of your Love — and now become as the most hated one — the one — You have thrown away as unwanted — unloved. I call, I cling, I want — and there is no One to answer — no One on Whom I can cling — no, No One. — Alone … Where is my Faith — even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness — My God — how painful is this unknown pain — I have no Faith — I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart — & make me suffer untold agony.

So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them — because of the blasphemy — If there be God — please forgive me — When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven — there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives & hurt my very soul. — I am told God loves me — and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. Did I make a mistake in surrendering blindly to the Call of the Sacred Heart?"

The above was addressed to Jesus, at the suggestion of a confessor. It is from Teresa’s recently published letters.

 

[davidv]

How about Mother Teresa for saintly atheist?

{snip}.

I find this response highly disrespectful. To call one such as Mother Teresa an atheist is outrageous.

One’s doubt’s does not define ones faith. In fact doubt often leads to strengthening of faith.

 

[PRmerger]

How about Mother Teresa for saintly atheist?

It turns out that the most celebrated exponent Christian dogmatism in a century, had her doubts about the existence of God:

"Lord, my God, who am I that You should forsake me? The Child of your Love — and now become as the most hated one — the one — You have thrown away as unwanted — unloved. I call, I cling, I want — and there is no One to answer — no One on Whom I can cling — no, No One. — Alone … Where is my Faith — even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness — My God — how painful is this unknown pain — I have no Faith — I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart — & make me suffer untold agony.

So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them — because of the blasphemy — If there be God — please forgive me — When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven — there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives & hurt my very soul. — I am told God loves me — and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. Did I make a mistake in surrendering blindly to the Call of the Sacred Heart?"

The above was addressed to Jesus, at the suggestion of a confessor. It is from Teresa’s recently published letters.

Yeah, and I guess you could claim that the sacred authors of the Psalms, and Jesus Christ himself , were atheists, too

“My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?”

It’s an expression of the feeling of utter wretchedness–not disbelief in God. John Henry Cardinal Newman said a thousand questions do not equal a single doubt.

 

[PRmerger]

Ooo, I thought of one! How about Carl Sagan? Not only did he make excellent contributions to his field of inquiry, but his warmth, compassion and pleasant, insightful wit inspired and continue to inspire many, both theists and nontheists alike. He concerned himself far more with clarification of Big Concepts, dispelling unwarranted fears, and promoting kindness, integrity and understanding among all humankind than ‘denying God’, all while remaining decent, humble and genuinely caring.

Most areligious people who do wonderful acts of intellection and moral contribution do not bring attention to themselves in the ‘Look at meeee! I’m a Saintly Atheist!’ sense, either because they don’t think their lack of belief in the supernatural is especially relevant to the good that they do, or they fear censure from those who are religious. Sagan was a humble man, as well as a very brave one.

I just remembered - I actually ran across him at the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory once. I was so happy to meet the man who inspired me as a child to study the sciences with as much passion as the arts, and yet I didn’t feel at all awkward - he was simply a rumpled professor happily chatting away with a bunch of other rumpled professors and graduate students in varying states of nervous breakdown, as grad students often are. It was really fun to stand in that little group and listen to what all those people were discussing.

Wow. He sounds nice. Nothing wrong with nice.

But I’m talking about saintly, in the way that Maximilian Kolbe was saintly.

 

[Nepenthe]

Oh, you mean martyrdom. That is not necessarily the same thing. Given even my own treatment at the hands of those who supposedly (and usually very loudly) proclaim their faith, I feel certain there have been those slain for not believing in gods or what have you, who led highly moral and introspective lives. It is a very different thing to go to your death loudly proclaiming what one DOES believe, as opposed to carrying on about one’s disinterest or lack of belief!

But in most cases, their names were either systematically expunged (including not being allowed so much as a stone to mark their burial) or they simply, again, found no reason to make a to-do over their own disbelief, or very likely, the fear of others such as their families, friends, and associates (or their lives’ works!) being persecuted and destroyed as well.

I do not believe in the supernatural myself, but I would most likely die for your, and anyone’s, right to believe or disbelieve whatever they wish, including Bigfoot and Nessie, although I would undoubtedly strongly urge people to never give up using their faculties of perception and reason to the greatest extent of their ability. If I was permitted to make a speech before the burning, mind you.

Pardon the edit there.