If it’s true that the Christian, possibly unconsciously, is not making as big a sacrifice as the atheist, then there’s only One Being that would recognize this and “reward” the atheist for his nobler sacrifice.
I don’t believe that atheists are rewarded for our nobler sacrifices.
The sacrifice is its own reward. It doesn’t need to be recognized by anyone.
I don’t help others just to be told what a good boy I am.
So, perhaps indeed in God’s eyes He recognizes the purer self-sacrifice of the saintly atheist.
If there is no God to recognize this, then who in the world would even know what a believer’s conscious or subconscious perceptions are?
What are you babbling about, exactly? We’re talking about the motivating factors of people and an estimation of what they’re surrendering – as a part of this conversation, we must make estimations of what a theist gives up and what an atheist gives up.
We make reasonable assumptions of about people’s “perceptions” all the time. We have to do so in order to have conversations like this. There doesn’t need to be some magic being that can peer into the unconscious mind in order for us to make reasonable assumptions about those minds.
I’m going to post this question again – the one about the theist and the atheist giving up lucrative careers to risk their lives --because you didn’t answer it:
me:
You’ll note that you’re not responding to the point I made. I’m not comparing risking one’s life to sacrificing one’s life. I’m comparing two different people risking life – a theist and an atheist.
Further, I’m comparing two people consciously choosing to give up lucrative careers to put themselves in situations where there is a good possibility that death could occur (however it happens – friendly fire, enemy fire, murder, etc.).
Clearly, both of these individuals would have to contemplate the prospect of death and be willing to sacrifice this life – the atheist thinks he’s risking the only life he’ll ever have; the theist thinks he’s risking merely his mortal life.
Who is making the bigger sacrifice?
I really would like to know who you think is making the bigger sacrifice.
A further example: What about the atheist and the theist who each give the same amount of money to charity? The atheist believes that this is the only life he will have, and he is surrendering some of his material goods; the theist is surrendering the same amount of material goods, but he believes that he will live forever (making the enjoyment of this life relatively unimportant).
Who is sacrificing more?
you:
But this thread does confirm that Christianity does indeed provide the best path for living the saintly life, for becoming holy and selfless.
And there we have it, your reason for starting this thread.
Your argument boils down to this: “Only a Christian has ever done this particular act of extreme self-sacrifice. Therefore Christianity is more moral and/or true.”
There aren’t words for how dumb that argument is.
You’ve chosen an extreme (and extremely rare) act for your basis of what constitutes “moral” while overlooking the average behavior of both atheists and theist. The fact that you can find one theist performing an extreme act of self-sacrifice (which I, for one, don’t necessarily consider moral) doesn’t tell us anything about the behavior of everyday atheists and theists.
As I’ve already explained, I think atheists on the whole qualify as more “saintly” and more self-sacrificing than most theists (given a comparison of the value that each is sacrificing to each – an atheist is giving up part of what he believes to be the one and only life; the theist is giving up part of what he believes to be only his first, finite life – the atheist clearly sacrifices more). The fame of these “saints” is irrelevant to the point.
At any rate, whether atheism or theism provides the path to a more moral life (and we clearly disagree on that point) has nothing to do with which one is true. Whether something inspires moral behavior tells us nothing about whether it is true or not. Lies can make people behave well (see Plato’s idea of the “noble lie” for example).
Did you think phrasing such a dumb argument as a question was clever? Did you think it would make people overlook how illogical and ridiculous the argument is? Or did you just not think your position through clearly?
The last option is the most likely one.
Enjoy your retreat, PR. You might take some of the time to reflect on your methods of thinking and argumentation.
