Are there any "saintly" atheists?

[Leela]

I find this response highly disrespectful. To call one such as Mother Teresa an atheist is outrageous.

One’s doubt’s does not define ones faith. In fact doubt often leads to strengthening of faith.

Considering that I am an atheist, you can be sure that I meant no disrespect, since I don’t see it as an insult to be called an atheist.

As for strengthening of faith, if you read the quote you’ll see that Teresa claimed to have no faith. Now at the same time, she is addressing her claim to Jesus, so perhaps she was not completely without belief in God. I guess we’ll never know, but it is very clear that she had her doubts. Again, I don’t see that as an insult, I think it makes a lot of sense to doubt the existence of gods.

 

[Leela]

Oh, you mean martyrdom. That is not necessarily the same thing. .

If we are talking about martyrdom, then I suppose Teresa doesn’t qualify as a saint for this thread, anyway. Then I think the best example of one who was a martyr who died willingly for his lack of belief in gods and pursuit of reason was Socrates, as someone else already suggested.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh, you mean martyrdom. That is not necessarily the same thing.

Perhaps it’s not necessarily always the same thing. But in the Kolbe’s case it was.

So my question remains, are there any atheists who were saintly (not just nice and kind and pleasant)?

Given even my own treatment at the hands of those who supposedly (and usually very loudly) proclaim their faith, I feel certain there have been those slain for not believing in gods or what have you, who led highly moral and introspective lives. It is a very different thing to go to your death loudly proclaiming what one DOES believe, as opposed to carrying on about one’s disinterest or lack of belief!

I am sorry that you were treated badly by believers.

I am not asking if there were people who were killed for not believing in God. It is to our shame that Christians have done this.

 

[PRmerger]

If we are talking about martyrdom, then I suppose Teresa doesn’t qualify as a saint for this thread, anyway. Then I think the best example of one who was a martyr who died willingly for his lack of belief in gods and pursuit of reason was Socrates, as someone else already suggested.

Yeah, but as someone also already suggested, there’s no real evidence that Socrates even really existed.

 

[PRmerger]

If we are talking about martyrdom, then I suppose Teresa doesn’t qualify as a saint for this thread, anyway. Then I think the best example of one who was a martyr who died willingly for his lack of belief in gods and pursuit of reason was Socrates, as someone else already suggested.

And, again, I am not asking for an example of an atheist who willingly died for his lack of belief in gods.

 

[Nepenthe]

Please define ‘saintly’ in terms that you think may be applicable to nontheists then, would you? It would be very helpful if you define the terms of your question for those attempting to answer it.

I too admire Kolbe, by the way. And many other esteemed theists of many faiths.

 

[MegaTherion]

I mean, I think we’ve already covered it – there are no famous examples (that I can think of, anyway), but there have been countless cases throughout history of atheists dying or willing to die for others – parents for children, soldiers for countries and causes, loved ones for loved ones.

What I’d be more interested in discussing is this: theists who give their lives for another believe that they will survive their death as spirits and live forever in bliss; atheists who give their lives for another do not have such a belief.

Is not the latter a purer act of self-sacrifice, an example of someone willing to surrender the only life that we know that we will have for the sake of another?

With all due respect, PR, your stipulation that the person in question has to die for a total stranger is largely irrelevant – such an act is rare, not necessarily a moral act, and ignores whether the person who dies believes he/she will actually gain something (namely eternal life), thus calling into question the self-sacrificial nature of the act.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Leela,

I know that Socrates was charged with atheism, but where in the Dialogues does Socrates promote atheism?

In point of fact, Meletus accused Socrates of introducing new gods. At the end, in prison, Socrates ask Plato to offer a bird sacrifice to the god Asclepius.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Leela,
*
How about Mother Teresa for saintly atheist?

It turns out that the most celebrated exponent Christian dogmatism in a century, had her doubts about the existence of God:*

This is another typical example of how poorly informed atheists are about Catholic theology. One may easily doubt without being an atheist. One does, however, overcome one doubts without remaining in a permanent state of negativity.

Thomas the apostle also doubted, then overcame his doubts with the help of Jesus. Does Thomas qualify as a saintly atheist in your mind?

Whew!

 

[PRmerger]

Please define ‘saintly’ in terms that you think may be applicable to nontheists then, would you? It would be very helpful if you define the terms of your question for those attempting to answer it.

I too admire Kolbe, by the way. And many other esteemed theists of many faiths.

So let’s say there’s a POW camp and someone is being singled out for execution for a minor infraction. Do we know of any atheists who have said, “Don’t execute that man–he’s a husband and father; I am a single man with responsibilities to no one. Take me instead.”

Or, let’s say there’s a high-ranking government official who was kidnapped by a radical group and is holding him ransom. They are threatening great violence unless their demands are met. And let’s say there’s another high-ranking govt official, who’s an atheist, who’s even more desired by the radical group. Would there be an atheist in this position who would say, “Let that guy go, take me instead.”

Now, I’m not asking that your atheistic person literally and specifically fit exactly the above examples. Just extrapolate.

I understand that there may be un-sung atheistic heroes. Just wondering if there’s any famous examples. If not, why not?

 

[PRmerger]

IWhat I’d be more interested in discussing is this: theists who give their lives for another believe that they will survive their death as spirits and live forever in bliss; atheists who give their lives for another do not have such a belief.

Oh, I don’t know that this is why Christians give their lives for another. It’s more likely that it’s because of selfless LOVE, of seeing the Divine in the Other, of AGAPE.

With all due respect, PR, your stipulation that the person in question has to die for a total stranger is largely irrelevant – such an act is rare, not necessarily a moral act, and ignores whether the person who dies believes he/she will actually gain something (namely eternal life), thus calling into question the self-sacrificial nature of the act.

I don’t think I made that a stipulation–only that it would be better if the example provided *were *for a stranger.

 

[Nepenthe]

Bet you a dollar there are plenty of them, then. In such a case, I really doubt that a nontheist would even be especially concerned about their lack of religion. And there is no marker to tell whether or not a person is an atheist. If Maximilian Kolbe hadn’t been FATHER Maximilian Kolbe, we likely wouldn’t know anything much about him and what faith he might have been either.

So many have perished in so many atrocities, in every time and place, and of all religious or areligious varieties, that these things are a shame to all humanity, and not to any religion or lack of religion! The entire world is full of human landfills of every kind, color and conviction. But we, you and I and everyone, can do better! That much, I admit to a degree of certainty about, since so many people throughout the world’s history have indeed done better.

The very best of us live for, and may die for, the courage of our humane convictions, ideals, ethics and morals, and one need not be a theist to do so.

 

[PRmerger]

Bet you a dollar there are plenty of them, then. In such a case, I really doubt that a nontheist would even be especially concerned about their lack of religion. And there is no marker to tell whether or not a person is an atheist. If Maximilian Kolbe hadn’t been FATHER Maximilian Kolbe, we likely wouldn’t know anything much about him and what faith he might have been either.

I.

Must,

Refrain.

From.

Sarcasm.

{deep, cleansing breath}

Ok, then!

I don’t think that the Catholics are in charge of writing the history books. Or in charge of the media. So I truly doubt that there’s a conspiracy to hide saintly atheists and to promote only the heroic deeds of Christians.

 

[Nepenthe]

Oh, I generally agree with you - but neither is there any group with an agenda to promote these ‘saintly atheists’ as there is in many organized religions. I don’t think I’m far wrong to say most nontheists are quite happy to learn from the best teachers we can find, and sure, that includes both the Moralist of Galilee and Socrates, and…well, it’s far too long a list for a forum post.

Oh, and I should add - you bet, Thomas is my favorite apostle, and he wasn’t an atheist, but he -was- a critical thinker by all accounts and traditions of Christianity.

 

[Leela]

This is another typical example of how poorly informed atheists are about Catholic theology. One may easily doubt without being an atheist. One does, however, overcome one doubts without remaining in a permanent state of negativity.

Thomas the apostle also doubted, then overcame his doubts with the help of Jesus. Does Thomas qualify as a saintly atheist in your mind?

As you say, I don’t know enough to say how saintly they were. In fact, after reading up on Teresa, not only am not so sure of her faith, but I am also doubting that she was very saintly at all. Obviously I don’t by the “miracle” that was required for her beatification, but worse, it sounds like her hospice offered no comfort for the sick at all and had no real medical facilities (which is why when Teresa was sick, she went to California). I’m wondering where all the donations went. Does anyone know?

 

[PRmerger]

Bet you a dollar there are plenty of them, then.

Irony of all ironies. An atheist (or nontheist, whatever) making a claim without any evidence to back it up.

Where’s the proof that these Mystery Atheists exist? Show me some evidence!

 

[Nepenthe]

I didn’t make a claim. I bet you a dollar.

 

[Leela]

“I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.”

• Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist

 

[Leela]

“The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.”

• Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).

 

[PRmerger]

“I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.”

• Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist

Good man. Philanthropist. Lover of humanity.

Lincoln, too–good man.

Do you really think they’re on the same plane as Kolbe?

I truly won’t argue with you about it. If you feel they’re on the same playing field, so be it.

Me? Not so much.