Are there any "saintly" atheists?

[Nebogipfel]

I have to chip in here…
SeekingHeaven;4785371:

I would assume there have been none, seeing as how that would be somewhat of an oxymoron./ QUOTE]

That would depend on what you mean by saintly. If you just mean very altruistic, it’s not an oxymoron, but it is rather a meaningless question. It’s a bit like asking whether there are any saintly left-handed people or saintly football players.

Atheism exists because certain groups of people don’t want the responsibility that comes with religion and belief in God.

I can’t speak for all atheists, but for this particular atheist, it’s about not having a convincing reason to believe in God, a god, or gods, nor having a convincing reason to think that any one out of the myriad religions in the world is the “right” one. Whether or not I feel responsible for my fellow human beings is an entirely different question.

Atheism is more of a selfist ‘religion’, treating yourself as king and doing what thou feels is right for them

No, that’s hedonism or possibly nihilism (or both). There may be atheists who are hedonist nihilists, but I’m not one of them. If there was a necessary relationship between atheism and hedonistic nihilism, then all atheists would be hedonistic nihilists - which is clearly not the case.

while religion on the other hand speaks of giving of yourself for another while expecting nothing in return,

It does. Most religions say that, and you can also find this attitude in people of no religion. You imply here that only religion can speak about altruism, which I feel is disingenuous.

something that conflicts with people who feel no obligation to do so if there is nothing in it for them in return.

Again, I can’t think that Carl Sagan or Bertrand Russell are people who felt “no obligation to do so if there is nothing in it for them in return.”

On the other hand, I also believe there is a basic human drive amongst most people to help other humans who they clearly see suffering. All this means is that the person has a conscience.

Yes. And again, people with a conscience can be found in all religions, and in none. So can mass-murderers. I don’t see that this proves anything one way or the other.

Bottom line is: Faith with no works = worthless, works with no faith = worthless. Together they are powerful.

Works with no faith is worthless? I guess I’d better not give any more money to charity then, eh?

 

[paulamari]

“To address a larger point, I’m not so sure I agree with the idea that sacrificing your life for a total stranger is good or even moral. Would you be willing to do that? Why or why not?”

I]"Greater love than this no man hath, than to lay down his life for his friend…"

My thoughts are that no matter if one is an atheist or a theist – to sacrifice one’s life for another, especially a stranger, is right up there with martyrdom, and I believe that God will greatly reward that person in Heaven - whatever their beliefs. It is the ultimate unselfish sacrifice. They’ve shown the greatest form of love, and proven themselves worthy of sainthood in my opinion…

We’ve seen a lot of this type of courage and self-sacrifice at present in my country of Australia during the devastating bushfires in the State of Victoria where I live - people risking their lives to save others… Who knows if they’re religious or not - but they’re acting in a Christ-like manner! I think that’s pretty good and moral!

 

[ncgolf]

“To address a larger point, I’m not so sure I agree with the idea that sacrificing your life for a total stranger is good or even moral. Would you be willing to do that? Why or why not?”

I]"Greater love than this no man hath, than to lay down his life for his friend…"

My thoughts are that no matter if one is an atheist or a theist – to sacrifice one’s life for another, especially a stranger, is right up there with martyrdom, and I believe that God will greatly reward that person in Heaven - whatever their beliefs. It is the ultimate unselfish sacrifice. They’ve shown the greatest form of love, and proven themselves worthy of sainthood in my opinion…

We’ve seen a lot of this type of courage and self-sacrifice at present in my country of Australia during the devastating bushfires in the State of Victoria where I live - people risking their lives to save others… Who knows if they’re religious or not - but they’re acting in a Christ-like manner! I think that’s pretty good and moral!
I am very sorry for all those affected in Australia by those devastating wildfires … I fought those types in Southern California while in college, and can testify to the speed, ferocity and utter destruction those fires can wreak.
Just the noise is deafening.

Anyway you are correct in the giving of one’s life … there cannot be a greater gift for the life given to us is a gift from God … and we return it as a gift to another.

It is always the motive in my mind that drives the purity of the action … some do it for gain and payment and some not … the same action.

 

[paulamari]

Thank you ncgolf for your kind words and expressions.

Yes California is a part of the world that has similar climate and vulnerability to fires as Victoria. You have described the experience perfectly - the roaring noise, the ferocity, the speed and devastation etc…

Everyone in our country is traumatised and saddened for the losses, and we grieve along with the victims. The heroic acts of people who risked their lives to save others is deeply moving, and I’m sure some of these courageous ones were atheists, but maybe they’ll no longer be… There have been many miracles amidst the tragedies.

On another note - one could question “Is this the wrath of God?” Victorian Parliament recently introduced the Abortion Law Reform Bill 2008 - which allows abortion up until 28 weeks (ie 6 months). The Bill is horrific and there are many aspects which are basically inhumane and pleas from thousands of constituents were ignored, as were all amendments to the Bill rejected. Victoria is the first state in this country to remove “Child Destruction” from the Crimes Act. There were cries from the upper gallery when this Bill was approved:- “There will be retribution on this State/country”. I remember thinking at the time - bushfires! If this is a punishment, it’s a cruel one, and innocent people are affected, yet innocent little babies (who have been proven to feel pain from early weeks) are also being mercilessly affected by this cruel Abortion Bill our State has allowed - including the possibility of partial-birth abortions! I don’t know what to think really. Just that it’s absolutely horrible what’s happening here! Our State Premier is suffering very much due to the grief of his people - yet he was approving of the new Abortion Bill. But of course the two would never be connected… Maybe I’m wrong in connecting them - I’m unsure, but why do I feel it in my soul?

 

[paulamari]

I apologise for changing topic there (ie to Abortion).

Hope people can understand that we Victorians are traumatised and grieving, and looking for reasons as to the cause of the sudden anihilation of the most beautiful towns in our state (Marysville used to be described as “God’s Garden”) and so many innocent people who’s bodies are being searched for - and we all know there are only ashes left. This has been described as similar to Hiroshima! It is utterly devastating and horrific. No one feels safe any more and we are all so sad, but angry also.

I very much fight agains Atheism (my brother and nephew - whilst very caring people, call themselves atheists in spite of having been baptised Catholic - which breaks my heart), and I feel so many people are being hoodwinked into thinking there is no God. This seems such a global trend, and recent popular “New Atheism” books are not helping. Of course God does often convert atheists, and maybe it sometimes takes trauma, shock, tragedy for this to occur. During Victoria’s recent catastrophes there are some survivors who have courageously declared that they ‘prayed’! As this is the year of Saint Paul, I’m focusing on praying for his intercession for the conversion of my atheistic brother and nephew - good people, but with closed minds regarding religion of any kind!

Saint Paul is a good example for atheists I think - being struck down for persecuting the Christian religion, then ‘waking up’ as a different person (converted) who actually then began to defend it… an atheist who became a saint!

 

[frasille]

Its been interesting following this thread. My faith that there are readers and posters with open minds has been restored by many of the comments. I particularly appreciated one post that said Christians dont have a monopoly on good works.

I’ve never been able to wrap my head around the atheistic argument - how does one prove in an empirical way that God does not exist. In one of the earlier posts on this thread someone commented on proving a negative argument. Along with the above I dont know how one proves empirically that God does exist. Based on these observations that makes me an agnostic, something that feels more real to my experience of the Divine. My beliefs are just that - beliefs, mixed with faith. With my beliefs and my faith I dont need empirical proof; all I need is gratitude for this gift.

Regarding “saintly atheists?” I’m curious about why the writer chose the word saintly over “good” or “moral” or “ethical”. The word saintly is very much a religious term. What I find interesting about atheists is that for many of them there is a strong moral fiber. What adds to the uniqueness of their moral compass is that they embrace many of the other-centered values typically associated with religious or spiritually oriented people.

There is one aspect of that particular subgroup of atheists that makes their way of living very different than how religious folk live their lives. The moral or ethical atheists lives in accordance with these values not because they want to get to heaven or avoid hell. They choose to live a moral ethical life because living that way makes sense. Its now about being rewarded or avoiding punishment. How unique is that!!!

Below is a quote lifted from a website where you can read the A Humanist Manifesto. I know, the word humanist will freak out lots of readers and manifesto sounds so much like communist stuff that just the title of the document may freak out lots of readers. But for those of you who’ve read this far just a few more lines will provide a thumbnail sketch of why an antheist would live a moral and ethical life.

• Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. (See ethical naturalism.)
• Life’s fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals.
• Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships.
• Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness.
  Signatories included 21 Nobel laureates.

Are there good atheists and there are some not so good atheists. Just like there are some good Christians and not so good Christians. (By not so good I’m sure members of the Aryan Nation consider themselves good Christians tho most of us would disagree. And most born again Christians who are convinced that the only to heaven is if you have Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior no doubt think of themselves as good Christians. Not a great comparison because the Aryans are more scary than the Born Again Christians.)

 

[seekdatruth]

Just an observation here:
I keep seeing this in various posts, expressed in various ways:

religion on the other hand speaks of giving of yourself for another while expecting nothing in return

It’s not true that there is “nothing” to be gained in return, even for religious people. HEAVEN<—The grandest grand prize of them all.

Also, the part about saving a stranger by giving up one’s own life not necessarily being “moral” bothers me. Why? Because it has to be a religious person, or a person of the right religion making the sacrifice? I don’t usually agree with atheists, yet Dameedra (sp?sorry) made a good point about sacrifice when one doesn’t believe in gaining anything in the afterlife. I don’t know about anyone else, but since I returned to the Church, I’ve found it much easier to help others, now that I feel that there’s a purpose. I know there IS reward in what I do, not on earth, but in the afterlife. Now, I don’t see myself as selfish for good works now that I’m part of the Church, rather, I feel the act of allowing myself to be in the Church is good, since it increases the likelihood I’ll do saintly acts. Make any sense?
I dunno, I’m just saying I’m not seeing a good case for religion on this topic.
Let me see it, guys! Get some better arguments out there! This is an interesting topic, but I’d like to see our side win.
God bless!

 

[seekdatruth]

I apologise for changing topic there (ie to Abortion)

Saint Paul is a good example for atheists I think - being struck down for persecuting the Christian religion, then ‘waking up’ as a different person (converted) who actually then began to defend it… an atheist who became a saint!

Oh! I missed this one! Good point!
Sorry, I thought at first it was just another post off-topic and didn’t catch it.

 

[Agui]

Nothing in my entire bible readings I encounter someone who don’t believe in God have been sent in heaven unless he/she accept Jesus as their savior.

Atheists don’t believe in the existence of heaven and God, how could they be saints if we all know the facts that saints is for heaven?

They can only do good things because God written His commandments to their hearts not by letters but by Spirit even if they deny the existence of Him, and because they are also our brothers and sisters in God.

 

[WarriorInChrist]

Works with no faith is worthless? I guess I’d better not give any more money to charity then, eh?

While it is a good act that you are giving to others, it is of no help to YOUR own soul if there is no faith to back it up.

Faith and works is like bodybuilding You must eat a diet that is rich in protein and other nutrients, spend time in the gym working your muscles to no end, and at the end of it all rest up to recover and grow. If even ONE of these steps is missing, you will not grow any bigger and never get any stronger.

God bless!

 

[curioosbadger]

Isnt that the definition of selfishness?

 

[Nepenthe]

As so often, I must sigh before I post here. I am no theist, yet I give what little I can to worthy causes and needy individuals very often. Since I have no reason to think I have a ‘soul’ as most people here define it (although if you want to get into some heavy-duty aspects of Plato’s philosophy and it’d possibilities regarding scientific inquiry, we could perhaps get a discussion rolling - but that’s an entirely different thread, and I bet I’d throw some curveballs too ), that does not prevent me from understanding the ideas of compassion, social good and the well-being of others, nor even for putting the good of others above my own immediate need.

Many Christians have, shall we say, a lack of understanding and practice of such ethical behavior, and far be it from me to comment on the state or their ‘soul’ such as it may be, but they are certainly not the kind of company I prefer to keep, save perhaps in the sense of attempting to provide both a good example, and to encourage reason and kindness.

Besides, if Dante’s constructionist fiction of the workings of Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven are really how things work out (bloody unlikely, of course) after we die - heck, I couldn’t be interested in that Heaven - I’d far rather hang out with the Virtuous pagans/heathens! Than always struck me as the best real estate and company of neighbors in that work!

 

[frasille]

Nepenthe, you express yourself masterfully. In an earlier posting I noted that non-theists or atheists or agnostics for that matter can and often do live very ethical, moral, other-centered lives.

As I’ve come to understand it moral and ethical living in that context is done because it makes sense. Good is done for good’s sake, NOT because there’s pie in the sky on the other side. Heck anyone can do good because there’s a reward waiting for them.

I’m skeptical that many people will get the that point - in the end I guess it doesnt matter. Theists will do “good” hopeful of the reward, non-theists will do good for good’s sake and in the end hopefully its all good.

 

[Charles_22]

If, on the other hand, one asserts that there is a God, or pink poisonous dragons, or anything else, though, the burden of proof falls upon the person making the assertion.

Do recall the general way this comes about. Since God is hidden, he is difficult to prove, at least, to someone else. So what happens is the believer cannot prove said existence by what is usually resorted to, words. then the atheist generally responds, or did initially, with the “I’ll believe when I see proof” statement.

I’m throwing to you that the burden of proof is on the atheist, not the believer. There’s probably a good many believers who have had satisfactory proof themselves, I know I have, but it didn’t come about from my getting it from somebody else. IOW, if an atheist really wants proof, they have to look for it themselves. From what most vocal atheist say, they put no effort into this at all. In my case, I had to go through a long muddy period before I got proof and baptism must had been a major help. Part of faith is doing the best you can, with what you got, and asking for more, probably not even wanting proof, but wanting to be faithful nonetheless. Atheist have to accept God for themselves, and drawing a line in the sand and asking believers to cross it in the form of proof is very unlikely, if even possible, to do them any good, even if there is proof put forward.

So I am curious, if an atheist gets the proof they need, what do they do next? Seems to me, if one is really serious about wanting proof, the best thing to do is what they would had done if they did have that proof. Because, seriously, for the vast majority of people, that’s the only way it’s going to occur because proof is a huge thing that isn’t dispensed all that frequently. That’s just the way God does it and often proof, if it ever comes, is given to those who have after long years have been as faithful as they knew how. If all the faith that one can muster, is to start with RCIA, get baptized, and beseech God to help one believe (irrespective of proof) for many, they would be on their way. It’s what I think is the logical position for a atheist to take, since it is the way the system pretty much works.

I don’t see history providing atheists with a very high rate of conversions due to proof being given to them, so why keep asking for it? You become converted when you take more practical and humble steps. We don’t all start out like John the Baptist, but a start has to be made nonetheless, or the proof, which isn’t all that essential anyway, will probably never come. Proof, as far as I can tell, only comes from the goodness of God, and that proof is well nigh impossible to get if we’re doing all in our power to stick our chin out against Him, which is what it seems a good many atheists do (why should God reward such behavior?). It’s like appearing in a classroom and to start mouthing off to the teacher. Do you think that student will learn anything? Do you think that the teacher might kick them out right from the start? Fortunately, for the atheist, God gives them more time to change their minds, but that time isn’t everlasting.

 

[Nepenthe]

As I have said before, and will continue to maintain, if I am shown sufficient proof by rigorous, demonstrable/falsifiable methods, particularly with matching empirical data, then I will simply say ‘hm, nice proof’ and start ‘believing’ in the supernatural. Although that would render such concepts as faith pretty useless…

What is that ‘proof’ you have that nontheists do not have? We do not hide our proofs from anyone else - they may be too complicated for many people to bother with learning, but they are indeed comprehensible, demonstrable, falsifiable, and (as quickly as possible, lest they be dumped in the shredder!) empirical-even if their applications may not (as yet) be useful in praxis - but the theoretical knowledge is freely available and in no way mystical (okay, some theoretical mathematics and such gets pretty opaque, but you know what I mean! )

Also, thanks, Frasille, Sair, and many others of various faiths or lacks of faith - your kind words mean more to me than i can express without tearing up.