Are there any saints who died with baptism of desire

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That’s an inspiring story. I would like to read more about that; would you mind showing me where you read or heard that.
GOD bless!
 
Gorgias said:
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Tis_Bearself:
Baptism as a sacrament was NOT instituted prior to Pentecost.
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Watch out – this is where I got into trouble with @AugustTherese! 🤣

Do you mean instituted as in “instituted by Christ”? Or do you mean celebrated as in “celebrated by the Church as a sacrament”? I think you and I would hold to both of these claims, but some would claim both instituted and celebrated prior to Pentecost, and that’s where the disagreement lies. 🤷‍♂️
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I enjoyed our discourse yesterday. You brought up many good points and have a sharp sense of understanding Scripture.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
This thread has somehow derailed. The Catechism clearly states,
1226 From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism.
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Notice the words ‘celebrated’ and ‘administered’. Christ instituted the Sacrament of Holy Baptism in the Trinitarian Rite when the Holy Spirit annointed Him in His Baptism.
AugustTherese said:
On the contrary, Augustine says in a sermon on the Epiphany (Append. Serm., clxxxv): “As soon as Christ was plunged into the waters, the waters washed away the sins of all.” But this was before Christ’s Passion. Therefore Baptism was instituted before Christ’s Passion.
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phil19034 said:
Perhaps the Muslim man who was rounded up with a bunch of Christians by ISIS and when they were all being killed he had the opportunity to say that he was a Muslim, but instead decided that he wanted to receive execution because he was inspired by the faith of the Christians who were dying and said that he wanted to have the faith they had.
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Wow, I have no idea if that qualifies but what an inspiring story. I would think he was in Gods Grace’s though!

I think I remember hearing about this story, can you send a link so I can learn more about it?
 
Gorgias said:
o you mean instituted as in “instituted by Christ”? Or do you mean celebrated as in “celebrated by the Church as a sacrament”? I think you and I would hold to both of these claims, but some would claim both instituted and celebrated prior to Pentecost, and that’s where the disagreement lies. 🤷‍♂️
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I am in agreement with you, and to my knowledge, the Magisterium is in agreement with us both, so to me, that’s the end of it…
 
bassmansteiny said:
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phil19034:
Perhaps the Muslim man who was rounded up with a bunch of Christians by ISIS and when they were all being killed he had the opportunity to say that he was a Muslim, but instead decided that he wanted to receive execution because he was inspired by the faith of the Christians who were dying and said that he wanted to have the faith they had.
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Wow, I have no idea if that qualifies but what an inspiring story. I would think he was in Gods Grace’s though!

I think I remember hearing about this story, can you send a link so I can learn more about it?
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This is the guy…

There are many different reasons people are giving to why he allowed ISIS to kill him.

www.lastampa.it

Muslim chooses to die alongside Christians

Among the Ethiopians killed in Libya by IS was Jamal Rahman: he offered to be taken hostage so as not to abandon a friend. The story is reported by PIME
www.lastampa.it www.lastampa.it

This article doesn’t really mention exactly what I said, as I heard it either from my priest or on the radio.

Regardless, his action is pretty saintly.

God Bless
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
I am in agreement with you, and to my knowledge, the Magisterium is in agreement with us both, so to me, that’s the end of it…
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Well, what I learned in this discussion, to my surprise, is that there were folks who made the assertion that ‘real’ baptism was celebrated prior to Pentecost. That’s something that I was never taught, AFAIK!
 
I think of the Holy Innocents - those 2 yrs old and under who were slain by Herod. Mt. 2:16 They are examples of some who received Baptism by Blood, even before Jesus was born.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The Church venerates these children as martyrs (flores martyrum); they are the first buds of the Church killed by the frost of persecution; they died not only for Christ, but in his stead (St. Aug., “Sermo 10us de sanctis”)
…and these first flowers of the Church (martyrs by blood alone) accompany the Holy Child Jesus entering this world on Christmas day.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07419a.htm
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Isn’t that a lovely thought; to visualize these Holy Innocents rejoicing around the new born babe lying in a manger! 😇
 
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I’m not sure about that. They were not martyrs (too young to die for the faith).

I agree that they are innocent and in Heaven but I don’t see how Baptism of Blood would apply to them.
 
The Church does consider them martyrs because “The innocents were slaughtered as infants for Christ;” (The quote is from the entrance antiphon for Mass on December 28, their feast day. The Roman Missal has the title of “The Holy Innocents, Martyrs”. You’ll have to scroll down to page 1566.)

Likewise, the Liturgy of the Hours (breviary) titles December 28 as “Holy Innocents, Martyrs” and uses the common of martyrs.
 
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I understood with martyrdom there has to be a choice to accept death for Christ. Obviously not the case with the innocents. I doubt their parents had much choice either.
 
I think that is the case now. (I haven’t searched to find official documents on that.) There seems to have been a progression in the Church as to how/when etc. the term “martyr” was applied. The Catholic Enc. article, 3rd paragraph, contains the following line:
Yet, it was only by degrees, in the course of the first age of the Church, that the term martyr came to be exclusively applied to those who had died for the faith.
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It could well be that an exception was made for the Holy Innocents because of the circumstances causing their slaughter. They did die “for the faith” – for Jesus, albeit unknowingly.

I just realized that in my first posting on this thread I imagined the Holy Innocents (their souls) present at the time of Jesus’ birth. Mistake on my part; their deaths occurred later - after Jesus’ birth.
 
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Gorgias said:
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Tis_Bearself:
I am in agreement with you, and to my knowledge, the Magisterium is in agreement with us both, so to me, that’s the end of it…
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Well, what I learned in this discussion, to my surprise, is that there were folks who made the assertion that ‘real’ baptism was celebrated prior to Pentecost. That’s something that I was never taught, AFAIK!
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So, as it turns out, I was looking through the canons of Trent (for the sake of an answer in another thread), and I ran across one that’s relevant to this conversation. I thought I’d share it with ya’ll:
If any one saith, that the baptism of John had the same force as the baptism of Christ; let him be anathema.
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Interesting, no? (I hadn’t remembered that this was one of the Reformation-era controversies that were out there!)
 
I was raised by a Roman Catholic mother who left the church because someone refused to baptize my eldest sister because she wasn’t attending church regularly. My mother was hurt so much she never went back, and I had to convince her to attend my initiation into the church and I know it was very painful for her.

It was very hard, that time that led up to my baptism. I worried about dying before it happened, and not getting to heaven until I was told about baptism of desire. My health has been bad for years and that is part of why I was so scared.

I don’t know if there were any Saints who died before baptism, but many were martyred, and had the baptism of blood. Its something worth googling.
 
That’s interesting! I knew the two things weren’t the same, but didn’t know it was “anathema” to say they were. Thanks for the update!
 
The Holy Innocents, I had not even thought of that, and in an age where women murder there own babies by the thousands, this is a good thing to reflect on.
 
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