Are there people here at CAF, Catholics and non-Catholics that for the sake of ecumenicalism are compromising their own faith?

[DoxRox]

Hello DoxRox, thank you for your post.

Of course there is no such thing as, “too much charity”…I think the problem is with the different definitions of what is, “Christian charity”.

The “charity” that you describe does exist in Catholicism and it reminds me of something that Saint Benedict is attributed to saying, which is, “Preach the Gospel often and use words when necessary”.

In this environment, an internet forum, all we have is words and some are better with words than others are.

Some people like to use words to defend their Catholic faith and many of the Doctors of the Church have used many…many words to defend Catholicism… and to address heresies…

A Catholic Apologist is someone who uses words to defend and explain their Catholic faith.

I’m certain that there are some Catholics here at CAF, who would accuse Doctors of the Church, Saints and notable Catholic Apologists of being “un-charitable”, if they were to read posts of their quotes here, using an assumed identity.

If you don’t believe me, I could post some quotes here, as if they were mine and show you what I mean…Of course, if I were to do that, I would have to follow-up with a post listing the person who was actually quoted.

I have always been tempted to do that when ever someone had accused me or someone else here of being “uncharitable”, when what was written, is essentially the same thing that was said or written by an apologist or came from another credible Catholic source…

I have read some strong opinions on the main page here at Catholic Answers that would draw all sorts of criticism of people here, simply because the author might be considered to direct in their approach, but I don’t see comments here on the forums from Catholics, responding to what an apologist wrote on the home page.

Am I wrong?

Peace

I understand your point about some of the quotes from the Doctors of the Church. I’ve read some doozies.

However, we should be careful. They lived in a different era that called for a certain approach to things. They usually held hierarchal positions, which could have meant they either had more (or less!) access to information about Christendom at large. They were spiritually mature.

I don’t mean to modify anyone’s behavior. I know I do not have the spiritual maturity to engage in serious polemics without the cost of my soul. I can (and do) discuss aspects of the faith, I may get into a debate here and there, but I tend to try to stay from threads titled “The filioque” or “hesychasm” or “essence/energies vs. created grace” for example because even just keeping up with the conversation causes me to miss the forest for the trees.

So instead, I’m trying a way that brings me more peace, so that I can be the best witness to Jesus in that way.

Our St. Seraphim of Sarov has a saying as respected as St. Benedict’s - “Acquire the Holy Spirit, and thousands around you will be saved.” This is my evangelism.

And to be honest, I haven’t read the main page of Catholic Answers…I just found this board when I was bored the other day.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I understand your point about some of the quotes from the Doctors of the Church. I’ve read some doozies.

However, we should be careful. They lived in a different era that called for a certain approach to things. They usually held hierarchal positions, which could have meant they either had more (or less!) access to information about Christendom at large. They were spiritually mature.

I don’t mean to modify anyone’s behavior. I know I do not have the spiritual maturity to engage in serious polemics without the cost of my soul. I can (and do) discuss aspects of the faith, I may get into a debate here and there, but I tend to try to stay from threads titled “The filioque” or “hesychasm” or “essence/energies vs. created grace” for example because even just keeping up with the conversation causes me to miss the forest for the trees.

So instead, I’m trying a way that brings me more peace, so that I can be the best witness to Jesus in that way.

Our St. Seraphim of Sarov has a saying as respected as St. Benedict’s - “Acquire the Holy Spirit, and thousands around you will be saved.” This is my evangelism.

And to be honest, I haven’t read the main page of Catholic Answers…I just found this board when I was bored the other day.

Hello again DoxRox,

I appreciate what you are saying here and there are times when the discussions here have a negative spiritual effect on me and when that happens, I take a break and read more, or pray the Rosary more, or do something that brings me back.

I think that CAF provides a unique and positive way for many to learn about and to express their own faith. Some Catholics and other Christians might not otherwise spend much time at all, reading the Bible or researching Christian history, if it were not for Catholic Answers Forums.

I know that I have read many Bible verse and early Christian writings and other things, because I was preparing a response to something here and I didn’t want to post something contrary to Catholic doctrine or beliefs.

For some, if it were not for CAF discussions about Christianity, they might spend that time doing other things like watching TV or doing things, which are not “spiritual” at all. CAF is one of the “safest” and best-moderated sites on the internet.

Welcome to CAF and I hope to read more of your posts in the future.

Peace

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Are there people here at CAF, Catholics and non-Catholics that for the sake of ecumenicalism, are compromising their own faith?

At what point does compromise equal rejection of ones own faith?

Why do some here consider a vigorous defense of ones faith as being “uncharitable”, to a person of another faith?

**MOTHER CHURCH SUFFERS PAIN IN GIVING BIRTH

Hi Jimmy; I dont believe I compromise my Roman Catholic faith, but I dont subject myself to insults and badgering by trading one for the other, when I am sharing or informing a misunderstanding about my Roman Catholic faith.**

**I would like to offer you a perspective if I may? To me ecumenism, the way I see it, and the way our forefathers lived it was a since of sacrifice. I like to use St. Pauls and St. Johns description of it. They related it as to a Woman giving birth. The woman symbolizing the Catholic church, the blessed Virgin Mary our Mother. The birth pains that the Woman suffers is for the ecumenism that you speak of, because when the Church (the people of God) share the faith, or proclaim the gospel of Jesus are met with contractions (pain). It is here in the contraction of giving birth to the unbeliever (by taking on insults etc.), that the Woman has a choice, to take the pain and suffering because she loves her child, to be; unconditionally. The woman can become angry during giving birth (taking up your cross) for the unbeliever, because the child in her birth canal causes her much distress, that she is unable to give birth in Love, so she hurries to give birth, that can cause complications, so assistance is needed here, which is not a problem, It is ok, to ask for help when you have done all you can do.

There are many examples I can give to this scenario about evangelizing through ecumenism by Mother church giving birth. Many of our Early church fathers suffered much pain and agony as Mother Church for her children, many of our saints as you know even suffered death by martyrdom. And if you are any stubborn as I am about taking a stance for Jesus and Truth, you understand where I am coming from, as our fathers did.

The most beautiful thing when Mother church suffers pain to give birth to her children, is when the baby arrives (one comes home to the Catholic church), all the pain and suffering is forgotten, and what a joy, when one repents and comes back home, as you know all the angels in heaven rejoice with us.

This ecumenism that the Catholic church must suffer during the contractions of pain and suffering as the child moves down the birth canal, those that are strong take up their cross and follow Jesus, for those who cannot endure the birthing pains, will need assistance in giving birth. What we dont want to do is abort the child, by giving in to secularism of religion, and end up losing ones own faith. Now for those who dont want to give birth, they can adopt the child already born and give testimony by their Catholic christian lifestyle, so you see we are many members with different functions. Myself, send me to the front lines!

I give the example as St.s John and Paul about the woman going through birth pains, which is how we are all of Mary’s children whether one can accept this or not, but these are the birth pains she suffers for her children. Recall how she must of suffered when she lost Jesus for 3 days? Imagine how she suffers, for all those lost children who reject her and her son Jesus? Mother Church, will continue to give birth to her children, and suffer contractions, pain and ultimately great joy cometh in the morning.

Any way just a reflection from reading your post here.On a side note, Jimmy I am sure by your strength, you have assisted mother church in many ways in bringing her children home, through the birth canal. You have taken the pain, God only knows how many, children you have helped our blessed mother bring her children home. I find such a blessing when I come across someone such as you, whom I have never met personally, but because of Mother Church and our faith in the Blessed Perpetual Virgin Mary, I always sense a close (blood) family relationship through our Lord Jesus Christ that makes us united in one Lord, one baptism and one Holy Catholic apostolic church.

May the peace and love of Jesus Christ continue to grow in our Lord Jesus Christ wisdom, may humility be our strength.

Our Lord Jesus said “they persecuted me, they will also persecute you” " Love your enemies" Who said Catholicism is easy?

Gabriel (the might of God) of 12 **

 

[Jimmy_B]

Thank you…Excellent post!

 

[Contarini]

When I started this thread, my question was for both, Catholics and non-Catholics and only when asked, did I provide a “Catholic example”.

But you haven’t provide an example. You are making vague accusations with nothing to back them up.

Most people on all sides on this forum are people who hold strongly to their opinions and are unlikely to compromise. Of course there are those who are wishy-washy, but they are a small minority and not very prominent.

As for my statement about “effective debate,” perhaps I should have said “effective discussion.” There is a kind of debate that is directed solely toward scoring points. No doubt intra-Catholic criticisms are harmful in the context of that kind of debate. But as I said, in that kind of debate you really need to get together and all agree on a “party line” so that no one will be making weak arguments. However, I would hope that we’re engaged in something different here–a discussion that aims at deepening our knowledge of the truth. And in that context it does nothing but good for one Catholic to say to another, “Wait a minute–that argument is not fair.”

You seem to think that this sort of thing is compromising the truth. It isn’t. It strengthens Catholicism rather than weakening it.

If you have something else in mind, I apologize–but you have not given specifics, so I have no way of knowing.

Edwin

 

[Lapell]

Are there people here at CAF, Catholics and non-Catholics that for the sake of ecumenicalism, are compromising their own faith?

Some people seem to think I do… Myself I don’t believe so. Just because you speak in defense of people of other faiths or of their faith itself (to straighten false views on it for instance) doesn’t mean you reject your own faith in favour of that faith!

 

[Lapell]

Whoa!!! I’d be really careful about going to Canada just now, we Catholics aren’t real popular up there at the moment. Particularly if the subject of same sex marriage arises.

This one Catholic from Eastern Canada certainly isn’t going to adopt the view that same-sex union can be actually called a marriage or that it’s O.K.! And I am not the only one! However I don’t know how many we are in Canada whose opinion agrees with what the Catholic Church says…

 

[Contarini]

Are you trying to say that JimmyB is hotheaded?

His posts frequently show more zeal than judgment, yes. Note the recent thread on Jeffrey Dahmer in which he was intending to attack Protestant antinomianism, but in the process manages to sound a very uncertain note with regard to the clear Christian (and certainly Catholic) teaching that repentant sinners can be saved. Now that is an excellent example of a post that compromises the Catholic faith and puts a stumbling-block in the path of non-Catholics.

In defense of this extremely intelligent man, not to say the least of his patience with you people and his knowledge of his Catholic church should make every non-Catholic Christian take a second look at their own “denomination” and determine which is the ‘correct’ faith.

With all due respect, the fact that JimmyB’s posts impress you really doesn’t say a whole lot about his abilities as a defender of the Catholic faith. Their effect on non-Catholics is somewhat more relevant.

Edwin

 

[RobHom]

I have not and will not compromise my faith as a Catholic. It simply will not happen. I can think of no greater sin that I could commit. It would be horribly hypocritical as well. Oh, yes…there is one…but we aren’t even going to mention it.

Insofar as “discussions”…I have no problem. I have had a number of discussions with non-Catholics…and I am literally amazed at the number of people who have been taught or fed nonsense and even downright lies about Catholics and Catholicism. I use those discussions as a springboard to educate them to the truth. Do I try to “convert” them…no, not really…but I’m sure I’ve planted a seed or two here or there. But then it really wasn’t me doing it…was it.

If someone is brash enough…I will meet them on the battleground. I have no problem with that. I’ll leave it go at that. I do, however, prefer polite discussions without raised voices or hackles.

I will not judge others by saying that they “compromise” their faith here on these forums…its not something I have a right to do. All I see is “handles” that people use in remaining anonymous in these forums…I don’t know anyone…and certainly not even well enough to form an opinion of their sincerity or mindset. I accept what they say at face value.

 

[Jimmy_B]

His posts frequently show more zeal than judgment, yes. Note the recent thread on Jeffrey Dahmer in which he was intending to attack Protestant antinomianism, but in the process manages to sound a very uncertain note with regard to the clear Christian (and certainly Catholic) teaching that repentant sinners can be saved. Now that is an excellent example of a post that compromises the Catholic faith and puts a stumbling-block in the path of non-Catholics.

With all due respect, the fact that JimmyB’s posts impress you really doesn’t say a whole lot about his abilities as a defender of the Catholic faith. Their effect on non-Catholics is somewhat more relevant.

Edwin

Hello again Edwin (Contarini),

“His posts frequently show more zeal than judgment…”,

Maybe so but you cannot say, that I’m not trying.

I do though; try to refrain from personal attacks and to address the different beliefs here and not the individuals here.

In addition, when I am posting, I make ever effort not to post anything, which is contrary to Catholicism, which is my faith.

Some here mistake and confuse questions and thread titles that I use, as my own beliefs, which are not usually revealed, until we are well into the discussion.

This is why I am often accused of “baiting” people. I admit that I am guilty of “baiting” here but my main purpose is to “spark” a discussion. If everyone here agreed, this forum wouldn’t have the activity that it does. The activity here is the vehicle, which enables you and others to share your own opinions… Right?

Don’t take things personally. All it is, is words, words, words, words, words…we are all just talking here and there is something that can be gained from any lively debate…Be nice.

“…but in the process manages to sound a very uncertain note with regard to the clear Christian (and certainly Catholic) teaching that repentant sinners can be saved.”

Yes, maybe in the beginning of these discussions here, this is true. This is because, initially, there is a lack of (name removed by moderator)ut from others and because there are so many different beliefs, it is sometimes necessary to "get the ball rolling” first, in order to find out what the people here, who are participating in any discussion, actually believe…then we can discuss our differences.

You comment here, regarding the Christian truth that, “sinners can be saved”, is a great example of what I am talking about.

This comment implies that we shared the same belief in what it means, and how it is, that one is “saved” and this is incorrect; we do not agreed on this point.

“With all due respect, the fact that JimmyB’s posts impress you really doesn’t say a whole lot about his abilities as a defender of the Catholic faith. Their effect on non-Catholics is somewhat more relevant.”

What effect have I had on you?

Edwin, thank you for your comments and I look forward to reading more of your posts…God bless you!

Please be nice to the grumpy old man…I’m not a bad as you think.

Peace

 

[Jimmy_B]

Now, back to the original questions posed here, which are-

• Are there people here at CAF, Catholics and non-Catholics that for the sake of ecumenicalism, are compromising their own faith?
• At what point does compromise equal rejection of ones own faith?
• Why do some here consider a vigorous defense of ones faith as being, “uncharitable”, to a person of another faith?
  Your thoughts?

 

[Nickkname]

Are there people here at CAF, Catholics and non-Catholics that for the sake of ecumenicalism, are compromising their own faith?

I don’t know, no one knows the heart except the Lord. But this is a good question anyways.

At what point does compromise equal rejection of ones own faith?

The minute you comprimise any of your faith.

Why do some here consider a vigorous defense of ones faith as being “uncharitable”, to a person of another faith?

Because some people are so uncharitable that they cannot stand it when others defend their faith.

 

[mozart-250]

Now, back to the original questions posed here, which are-

Your thoughts?

With regards to the questions:

Are there people here at CAF, Catholics and non-Catholics that for the sake of ecumenicalism, are compromising their own faith?

I dunno. An example of what you exactly mean would be nice.

Then the issues are (1) Is this compromising your faith (2) Are there people here that do this. I could care less about (2), but (1) is rather interesting.

At what point does compromise equal rejection of ones own faith?

Not that compromise is good, but compromise is a different verb with a different meaning than reject. Peter compromised his faith. Judas rejected it.

Why do some here consider a vigorous defense of ones faith as being, “uncharitable”, to a person of another faith?

Because they are two separate entities that are not mutually exclusive.

A “vigorous defense of ones faith” can be done either (1) in charity or (2) without charity.

The objection I presume would not be in the “vigorous defense of one’s faith” but would be in the “without charity”.

 

[Jimmy_B]

How many here, are using the standard (below) to answer this question?

Nine ways of being an accessory to another’s sin.

1. By Counsel
2. By Command
3. By Consent
4. By Concealment
5. By Defense of Evil Done
6. By Partaking
7. By Provocation
8. By Praise
9. By Silence

If you were to use this standard (the nine ways…), would it change your previous opinion?

 

[Contarini]

You comment here, regarding the Christian truth that, “sinners can be saved”, is a great example of what I am talking about.

This comment implies that we shared the same belief in what it means, and how it is, that one is “saved” and this is incorrect; we do not agreed on this point.

How do you think that we disagree? I suspect that you know very little about my soteriology, which is much closer to Catholicism than to the OSAS Baptist-style Protestantism that seems to be your primary target.

Edwin

 

[Jimmy_B]

How do you think that we disagree? I suspect that you know very little about my soteriology, which is much closer to Catholicism than to the OSAS Baptist-style Protestantism that seems to be your primary target.

Edwin

You are probably right, I don’t…Thank you for pointing this out to me…

 

[Contarini]

You are probably right, I don’t…Thank you for pointing this out to me…

And thank you for your courtesy, humility, and Christian charity, which I’m not sure I’d have been able to imitate (though I promise to try if I get the chance) if you’d criticized me the way I’ve criticized you.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Holly3278]

No, I doubt it because Catholics on here always give good answers to the questions and doubts that are presented. Therefore, I would see Catholic Answers Forums as more of strengthening a Catholic’s faith than weakening it. Also, Catholic Answers Forums is good for educating Protestants and is probably immensely helpful in gaining converts to Catholicism.

 

[ralphinal]

How many here, are using the standard (below) to answer this question?

If you were to use this standard (the nine ways…), would it change your previous opinion?

Dumb question, and I might not need to ask, but are you saying that being a non-Catholic Christian is a sin?

 

[Cathdefender]

Dumb question, and I might not need to ask, but are you saying that being a non-Catholic Christian is a sin?