Are there subtle forms of Satanic worship?

[Corki]

Off topic…probably…
Idea for a new thread…maybe…

What exactly is morally neutral? Right is right, wrong is wrong. There is no relativism in morality. Every thought, word and action has a consequence. Does it lead us nearer to God or separate us from Divinity?

If our actions point us towards the Divine they are without doubt worthy of endeavor.
However, if they lead us to self or things considered worldly, can they truly be considered morally neutral?

Everything leads to something, doesn’t it?

Not really off topic, especially since this thread ended up in the Philosophy sub-forum.

Right is right and wrong is wrong but most of what we do every day is neither - it’s morally neutral.

Eating, sleeping, walking, reading, going on the computer … none of these things is intrinsically good or bad. It’s what we add that has the moral content.

Eating - if you eat a meatless meal as a form of abstinence, you have made a neutral act into a holy one. If you eat to excess, you turn a neutral act into an act of gluttony.

Walking - if you walk to work instead of drive as a form of self-denial, you turn a morally neutral act into a holy one. If you walk to avoid picking up a co-worker who needs a ride, you have turned a morally neutral act into a selfish one.

Football (playing) - if you keep your body in shape and play with good sportsmanship its a positive act, if you play to win at all costs and take steroids to bulk up, its a negative.

Video games - if you play for simple recreation, nuetral; if you play to keep in shape (as in some Wii games), good; if you play because you love to kill things, bad.

None of these things, even in the negative application, end in Satanic worship. Not all sin is satanic.

Even things that point toward the Divine are not always good. Many of the great saints, for example, practices severe self-denial and astheticism. When you read about them, they were always on guard lest their efforts at holiness led to pride which would turn a good act into a bad one.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Not really off topic, especially since this thread ended up in the Philosophy sub-forum.

Right is right and wrong is wrong but most of what we do every day is neither - it’s morally neutral.

Eating, sleeping, walking, reading, going on the computer … none of these things is intrinsically good or bad. It’s what we add that has the moral content.

Eating - if you eat a meatless meal as a form of abstinence, you have made a neutral act into a holy one. If you eat to excess, you turn a neutral act into an act of gluttony.

Walking - if you walk to work instead of drive as a form of self-denial, you turn a morally neutral act into a holy one. If you walk to avoid picking up a co-worker who needs a ride, you have turned a morally neutral act into a selfish one.

Football (playing) - if you keep your body in shape and play with good sportsmanship its a positive act, if you play to win at all costs and take steroids to bulk up, its a negative.

Video games - if you play for simple recreation, nuetral; if you play to keep in shape (as in some Wii games), good; if you play because you love to kill things, bad.

None of these things, even in the negative application, end in Satanic worship. Not all sin is satanic.

Even things that point toward the Divine are not always good. Many of the great saints, for example, practices severe self-denial and astheticism. When you read about them, they were always on guard lest their efforts at holiness led to pride which would turn a good act into a bad one.

Anything that draws our conscious attention away from holiness, even for a short period of time, comes from the evil one and is a subtle form of Satanic worship. The more we give into these temptations, the less holy we become.

 

[Neildown]

Again, it’s a matter of degree and the effort one wishes to devote to practicing Holiness.

Yes.

Whether or not secular things lead us away from God depends on what is going on within the mind.

Yes.

My contention in this thread is to suggest to people that sin, and the worship of Satan, is subtle and happens whenever we turn our attention from God. With practice and perseverance we can all manage to keep a part of our mind on holy things!

Satanic worship is in no way subtle though. You worship Satan and it’s mortal sin, period. I understand the gist of your argument, or at least part of it, but performing spiritually neutral acts is not classified as demon worship. It is possible they may lead us away from God but that does not make it in any way or form the worship of Satan. Neutrality in itself is not a sin [unless in the face of evil], but if not kept in check it can become a negative.

Again, it’s a matter of the degree we let ourselves get carried away with mundane things.

Yes.

Again, Satan is subtle, and often leads us into sin by diverting our attention from holiness.

Not everything that distracts us from holiness is from the Devil though. When I say the rosary with my family and the dog starts barking it’s not like Satan decided to use something to make the dog bark to make us stop for a few seconds and that when we are distracted that we’re worshiping him… That would be utter lunacy.

Owning an Xbox or PS3 need not be sinful if we are able to keep our minds on holiness, but more often than not, we’re unable.

As I said previously, neutral acts are not evil in themselves. It is when that neutrality is abused that it can become an evil and even then it usually isn’t demon worship.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Satanic worship is in no way subtle though. You worship Satan and it’s mortal sin, period. I understand the gist of your argument, or at least part of it, but performing spiritually neutral acts is not classified as demon worship. It is possible they may lead us away from God but that does not make it in any way or form the worship of Satan. Neutrality in itself is not a sin [unless in the face of evil], but if not kept in check it can become a negative.

The purpose of this thread was to bring up the notion of very subtle forms of Satanic worship, which may not be mortal sins at all.

They are not spiritual neutral acts, they are acts that lead us away from the holiness of God.

Even with the barking dog example, I claim that we can condition ourselves to keep a part of our mind on God. If we fail in that task, we are indeed engaging in a very subtle form of Satanic worship. And again, it’s all a matter of the degree of holiness. This type of holiness is rare and is usually found in hermits or monks.

 

[Little_One0307]

The purpose of this thread was to bring up the notion of very subtle forms of Satanic worship, which may not be mortal sins at all.

Where are you drawing your sources from?

I could quote several paragraphs from the Catechism but I will list these four to start with.

From the Catholic Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.

2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name. The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, “You cannot serve God and mammon.” Many martyrs died for not adoring “the Beast” refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who “transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God.”

Is it possible that one can worship Satan in a subtle, I do not know. But this I do know, any worship of anything but God is WRONG and is ALWAYS WRONG. You cannot alter this. Whether it is mortal sin is dependant on several factors, but I gurantee it is always a serious offense in the eyes of God.

God bless.

 

[Neildown]

The purpose of this thread was to bring up the notion of very subtle forms of Satanic worship, which may not be mortal sins at all.

So you are suggesting to me that all sin is a form of satanic worship? In other words, are you just trying to emphasize how bad sin is?.. Well that would be a persuasive way to put it. Satan was not the only factor in The Fall though… Then again it was he who set the bait and us who grabbed it, which in a way would be like taking and apple from Satan instead of God, thus the “worship” reference comes into play… I understand your reasoning I think.

They are not spiritual neutral acts, they are acts that lead us away from the holiness of God.

I realize that it is important to reflect on God frequently throughout the day, but maintaining a constant thought is quite hard sometimes. That doesn’t mean you’re pushing away from God.

Even with the barking dog example, I claim that we can condition ourselves to keep a part of our mind on God. If we fail in that task, we are indeed engaging in a very subtle form of Satanic worship. And again, it’s all a matter of the degree of holiness. This type of holiness is rare and is usually found in hermits or monks.

Yes, but a barking dog usually means that something is afoot and should probably be investigated - especially with guard dogs. And what about soldiers? Are they subtly worshiping Satan when all they can think about is fighting and staying alive in the middle of a battle?

 

[Corki]

Anything that draws our conscious attention away from holiness, even for a short period of time, comes from the evil one and is a subtle form of Satanic worship. The more we give into these temptations, the less holy we become.

That is not Catholic teaching. Satanic worship is gravely sinful. All distractions from holiness aren’t even venial sins. Most distractions and diversions, even sinful ones, are the result of our fallen nature not due to any Satanic influence, let alone worship.

Not everyone is called to the contemplative life. For the rest of us we are called to be in the world, though not of it.

 

[Neildown]

That is not Catholic teaching. Satanic worship is gravely sinful. All distractions from holiness aren’t even venial sins. Most distractions and diversions, even sinful ones, are the result of our → fallen nature ← not due to any Satanic influence, let alone worship.

Not everyone is called to the contemplative life. For the rest of us we are called to be in the world, though not of it.

THAT’S sort of what I was trying to get at…

 

[Corki]

THAT’S sort of what I was trying to get at…

Yes, you and I were typing at the same time. Great minds… ?

 

[Neildown]

yes, you and i were typing at the same time. Great minds… ?

teamwork! - “think alike”

 

[Robert_Sock]

That is not Catholic teaching. Satanic worship is gravely sinful. All distractions from holiness aren’t even venial sins. Most distractions and diversions, even sinful ones, are the result of our fallen nature not due to any Satanic influence, let alone worship.

Not everyone is called to the contemplative life. For the rest of us we are called to be in the world, though not of it.

When we persist in denying holiness it become worship. What goes on in the mind of someone watching football? They are mostly in tune to the game and probably feeling lots of emotion. They are usually far away from mental holiness. I label this to be a subtle form of Satanic worship.

Of course, I’m fully aware that none of this is in the teaching of the catechism, but is a part of elite holiness that is characteristic of hermits and monks. It’s an ideal form of worshiping God. When you have received this much grace from God, more is expected of you. You are expected to maintain an elite and continual form of holiness. Deviations from this can become sinful. I think the great saints would agree with me here.

 

[Little_One0307]

When we persist in denying holiness it become worship. What goes on in the mind of someone watching football? They are mostly in tune to the game and probably feeling lots of emotion. They are usually far away from mental holiness. I label this to be a subtle form of Satanic worship.

Ahhh now it comes out. It is what you label things to be, not what the Magisterium of the Church labels it.

Of course, I’m fully aware that none of this is in the teaching of the catechism but is a part of elite holiness that is characteristic of hermits and monks. It’s an ideal form of worshiping God. When you have received this much grace from God, more is expected of you. You are expected to maintain an elite and continual form of holiness. Deviations from this can become sinful. I think the great saints would agree with me here.

Deviations from holiness can become sinful, but they are not subtle forms of Satanic worship.

And there is plenty in the CCC about holiness.

God bless.

 

[Corki]

When we persist in denying holiness it become worship. What goes on in the mind of someone watching football? They are mostly in tune to the game and probably feeling lots of emotion. They are usually far away from mental holiness. I label this to be a subtle form of Satanic worship.

Of course, I’m fully aware that none of this is in the teaching of the catechism, but is a part of elite holiness that is characteristic of hermits and monks. It’s an ideal form of worshiping God. When you have received this much grace from God, more is expected of you. You are expected to maintain an elite and continual form of holiness. Deviations from this can become sinful. I think the great saints would agree with me here.

As long as you are aware that what you are saying is not Catholic teaching, no problem. Most of us are not monks or hermits and must live our lives the best we can.

FWIW, Satanic worship is a serious sin. To label things like football as Satanic worship is to minimize the real danger of Satanism in the world.

 

[GaryTaylor]

If I took a pound of Opium and placed it on a table. It could be said it would be of no temptation to anyone, till someone made it a temptation by their “own perception” that they were lacking something. So where was the error? Same as with Eve in acting off her feelings trying to arrive at something she didn’t need to begin with. There was no error until someone made it into a error. [Of course with Eve I have also taking Gods command not to eat the fruit out of the picture.]

If we look at the serpent/eve/fruit and took Gods word out of the picture. The fruit wasn’t evil then, the incorrect thinking “error” would be Eves still, in that she perceived she needed something which in fact she didn’t. She was created perfect.

So what have we reduced this too now?

Does man “need” a stimulant such as Football? Of course not, however we keep coming back around to “human error”.

Lets say football vs chess? It could be stated both in many ways are alike. What makes the football evil or the chess game evil? Human error:shrug: We make these vehicles for evil by taking them somewhere they were never intended to go.

Football becomes a vehicle through which evil could work only when we allow it our own free will X behavior. You perpetuate your own illusion. A Pro-Football player may “think” as a ritual he needs to go kill somewhere before the game in order to win. Where is the fault?

Its no different with any aspect of evil. We buy into the lie. Football then by itself would be no different than the Opium on the table. We complete our own distorted reality by buying into an illlusion. Such as murder to win, or by swearing at someone during a game thinking to intimidate them, thus give you an edge to win. Or to think you earned some type of privilege because you played and succeeded, so now go get drunk?

None of this has anything to do with the Opium, Football, Chess or in fact anything else. It continues to come back around to us and our behavior.

The fact that one can live as a Saint should mean what? That they can’t fall from grace? Of course they could. When they do as the Football player or Chess player or the guy that picks up the Opium then perpetuates the illusion by what they think they need or want.

Is alcohol evil or do we make it evil? Their drinking Wine at the Wedding of Cana. Who made what wrong? Constantly comes back around to you and I and free-will, and acting in ERROR thus the lie. Our behavior is what needs the constant check. Were turning nouns into verbs by our own action and what we perceive to need/want through free-will.

This is by allowing a fly buzzing around your head to turn into a Tiger sitting in a Tree.

 

[Neildown]

If I took a pound of Opium and placed it on a table. It could be said it would be of no temptation to anyone, till someone made it a temptation by their “own perception” that they were lacking something. So where was the error? Same as with Eve in acting off her feelings trying to arrive at something she didn’t need to begin with. There was no error until someone made it into a error. [Of course with Eve I have also taking Gods command not to eat the fruit out of the picture.]

If we look at the serpent/eve/fruit and took Gods word out of the picture. The fruit wasn’t evil then, the incorrect thinking “error” would be Eves still, in that she perceived she needed something which in fact she didn’t. She was created perfect.

So what have we reduced this too now?

Does man “need” a stimulant such as Football? Of course not, however we keep coming back around to “human error”.

Lets say football vs chess? It could be stated both in many ways are alike. What makes the football evil or the chess game evil? Human error:shrug: We make these vehicles for evil by taking them somewhere they were never intended to go.

Football becomes a vehicle through which evil could work only when we allow it our own free will X behavior. You perpetuate your own illusion. A Pro-Football player may “think” as a ritual he needs to go kill somewhere before the game in order to win. Where is the fault?

Its no different with any aspect of evil. We buy into the lie. Football then by itself would be no different than the Opium on the table. We complete our own distorted reality by buying into an illlusion. Such as murder to win, or by swearing at someone during a game thinking to intimidate them, thus give you an edge to win. Or to think you earned some type of privilege because you played and succeeded, so now go get drunk?

None of this has anything to do with the Opium, Football, Chess or in fact anything else. It continues to come back around to us and our behavior.

The fact that one can live as a Saint should mean what? That they can’t fall from grace? Of course they could. When they do as the Football player or Chess player or the guy that picks up the Opium then perpetuates the illusion by what they think they need or want.

Is alcohol evil or do we make it evil? Their drinking Wine at the Wedding of Cana. Who made what wrong? Constantly comes back around to you and I and free-will, and acting in ERROR thus the lie. Our behavior is what needs the constant check. Were turning nouns into verbs by our own action and what we perceive to need/want through free-will.

This is by allowing a fly buzzing around your head to turn into a Tiger sitting in a Tree.

This sounds like a really good argument to me, seeing as in Genesis God made everything “good” - it was us that allowed a temptation to permeate our defenses and in doing so we fell from grace. God made all of creation good, but we abused it by sinning with our free will.

So, you can look at it as “we worshiped the devil by giving in to his temptation,” - Mortal sin, period.

Or

“The devil tempted us and we allowed ourselves to fall for that temptation.” Venial OR mortal sin.

This falls in with the fact that all demon worship is strictly mortal sin - it cannot be subtle or venial. Thus, venial sin could be something that would please Satan and/or sadden God in one way or another but it could not be deemed a form of worship.

 

[Robert_Sock]

This falls in with the fact that all demon worship is strictly mortal sin - it cannot be subtle or venial. Thus, venial sin could be something that would please Satan and/or sadden God in one way or another but it could not be deemed a form of worship.

So, there is no subtle forms of Satan worship?

We differ here. We are each free to express our opinions, I guess, but I feel you’re closing the door to this type of subtle, unholy behavior!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Keeping a part of our mind on God and the Hereafter can be an excellent form of worship! It’s not easy, but takes training.

 

[fakename]

Keeping a part of our mind on God and the Hereafter can be an excellent form of worship! It’s not easy, but takes training.

Now here’s food for thought in this thread.

Thomas Aquinas (and basically Plato) wrote, “Whatever is the maximum of any genus causes the other instances in the genus”. That is, fire causes hot things. So what is the maximum of evil or privation of form? the devil. So whatever participates in this privation is in some way evil -but sports participates in this form since it isn’t perfect and plus it excites the bodily powers and not the mental ones so it degrades men by making the mind the servant of the body and for no other reason than entertainment.

I think that there is a fallacy here in this type of idealism. Evil is privation of form and so, although privation is a category, I doubt that it is a subsisting essence that individualized matter or else non-being (evil) would be being (form) which is absurd -there would be composites of evil and matter also absurd. Secondly, being is not a genus, so clearly its opposite non-being is not a genus since things change in harmony with their natures. But being is a genus and so must change according to its nature as a genus. Hence the end product (non-being) must be a genus, which is impossible. In conclusion, evil is a type of nothing and nothing never inheres in stuff -because it is literally nothing. So much less does nothing cause other things to be nothing since as Aquinas would also say, “nothing comes from nothing”.

So I don’t think that everything evil is necessarily causually connected with the devil -but then what of the fact that the devil conspires to turn all evil towards his ultimate aims as the Bible teaches?

Just putting this out there.

 

[Corki]

So, there is no subtle forms of Satan worship?

No, I don’t think there are. Satan worship is never subtle.

 

[GaryTaylor]

This sounds like a really good argument to me, seeing as in Genesis God made everything “good” !

Excellent now your thinking with an open mind.

Let me summerize what I have been breaking down.

All this comes down to is “projection makes perception”. What we see in the world, merely reflects our own internal reference frame, the dominant idea’s, wishs, hopes, the emotion’s in our mind.

We as humans look inside ourself first, decide the kind of world we want to see and then project that world to the outside, making it the truth “as we see it”. “We” make it true by the “INTERPRETATION” of what we are seeing.

If we are using perception to justify our own mistakes, or our anger, lust, greed and lack of love[Sin] in whatever form[Football, DVDs, Music, Popy bulbs] it may take. THEN we will see a world of violence, sexual deviation, destruction, despair, thus perpetuated sin=evil which we allowed to grow.

We must learn to correct and “to forgive” not because it is charitable or good but because what we are seeing is not true and a LIE. We distorted the world by our own twisted defense’s and are then seeing what is NOT there. We created the evil through a vehilcle that wasn’t intended to be evil and gave it its own life. This is how satan works through temptation or the seven deadly sins etc.

As we recognize our perceptual errors, we then can correct the error by looking past our distorted self made concepts[which is how this thread started] to the self which God Created “In us and As us”.

Many or most Catholic’s/Christians are taught this very early though they may not be able to completely understand thus summerize what they were taught. Its just correct “Blind Faith” in many situations. Yet as we see proven, God is not blindly leading…

The Bible is the backbone of modern psychology . While thats not a teaching, it is a truth as I would hope you now see.

Peace