Are there subtle forms of Satanic worship?

[GaryTaylor]

Robert, when you ask “So, there is no subtle forms of Satan worship?”

Evil is evil, and it correctly can be stated that it does work through subtle temptation. However there are also forms, as earlier you mention violent Games such as “Grand Theft Auto” etc. This is anothers distorted thinking which they already perceived and projected. Should one decide to play with it, then its just an error by an individual, on top of an error by another individual. Following negative role models instead of positive. Two wrongs don’t make a right, but a larger wrong. So we see how in that situation how evil also grows. Thus we have the war of good and evil played live as we live.

Often people rationalize negative behavior with acceptable social terms such as pleasure, fun etc. We are then giving each other incorrect permission to sin. Those with no foundation of Christianity “often” are seeking others to validate their own illusion, thus confirm their own negative distorted thinking. This is basically what I stated earlier about cooperating with evil thus enabling it to grow. Dr Martin Luther King use to talk about this with slavery/oppression/repression. And its a horrific example in “society” of the end result.

Peace

 

[Robert_Sock]

No, I don’t think there are. Satan worship is never subtle.

To the degree that Satan temps us subtly, and that giving into these temptations is a form of worship, it stands to reason that there are subtle form of Satan worship!

 

[Neildown]

So, there is no subtle forms of Satan worship?

We differ here. We are each free to express our opinions, I guess, but I feel you’re closing the door to this type of subtle, unholy behavior!

Not in playing sports or video games that have nothing to do with Satan or that contain things which would [or realistically could] cause us to sin.

I really don’t understand what you are trying to say there because this IS a debate and I’m listening to your points…

 

[Robert_Sock]

Not in playing sports or video games that have nothing to do with Satan or that contain things which would [or realistically could] cause us to sin.

I agree that football and video games are not inherently evil in and of themselves. But it’s when we move away from God and focusing our attention on mundane things; this is a step in the direction of evil. The evil is within us! This goes for anything that draws our attention away from God! “Nobody can serve two masters!” At any moment of time, we are consciously either worshiping God or Satan. There are no morally “neutral” circumstances!

 

[Neildown]

I agree that football and video games are not inherently evil in and of themselves. But it’s when we move away from God and focusing our attention on mundane things; this is a step in the direction of evil.

So basically you are saying football and video games are not evil but if we participate in them then they are evil?.. I disagree.

The evil is within us! This goes for anything that draws our attention away from God! “Nobody can serve two masters!” At any moment of time, we are either worshiping God or Satan. There are no morally “neutral” circumstances!

If you are perhaps suggesting that humans are inherently or naturally evil, then I don’t know why this debate is even going on, as that is a doctrine which the Roman Catholic Church has condemned. Humans are naturally SINFUL, not evil.

Also, again, God made the earth GOOD. Satan is not a “part” of the world, nor is the world a part of him. He merely utilizes it for our downfall and we are free to use it for that or for good. The fact that we may not constantly think of God while we are utilizing earthly things does not mean we are worshiping demons. You have to be doing something bad with those earthly objects for it to be relevantly “evil”.

 

[Robert_Sock]

God made the earth GOOD.

No, God looked at all He created and found it to be “very good.” There’s a big difference between “good” and “very good” in Judaism. “Good” connotes good, but “very good” connotes EVIL. Thus, we live in a world of good and evil! Even if you ignore Judaism, there’s no denying that we live in a world of good and evil after the sin of Adam and Eve! Again, at any moment in (waking) time, we are consciously either worship good or evil. As soon as we divert our attention from holiness we are worshiping evil. And, again, it’s all a matter of degree to as our holiness.

 

[Neildown]

No, God looked at all He created and found it to be “very good.” There’s a big difference between “good” and “very good” in Judaism. “Good” connotes good, but “very good” connotes EVIL. Thus, we live in a world of good and evil! Even if you ignore Judaism, there’s no denying that we live in a world of good and evil after the sin of Adam and Eve!

I am quite aware that we live in a world of good and evil now, but during Eden everything was apparently good except for the serpent. The animals were all apparently good and humans had free will, and then we chose to disobey which turned everything sour.

Also, you did not directly answer my query, do you or don’t you believe that humans are naturally or inherently evil?

Again, at any moment in (waking) time, we are consciously either worship good or evil. As soon as we divert our attention from holiness we are worshiping evil.

Your philosophy is beginning to make less and less sense to me now - God is good, we are sinful, and Satan is evil. The world itself, aside from us, is neutral and we can use it for good or for bad - we don’t need to be thinking of God constantly or consciously to be doing good with the world. God didn’t put us here just so we had to think of Him day in and day out - we do have a choice to do so but it is not relative to our salvation.

And, again, it’s all a matter of degree to as our holiness

We understand this.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Also, you did not directly answer my query, do you or don’t you believe that humans are naturally or inherently evil?

I believe that after the fall we have both a good and evil inclination, and it is within God’s will that we shun the evil inclination with all our heart and soul!

Your philosophy is beginning to make less and less sense to me now - God is good, we are sinful, and Satan is evil. The world itself, aside from us, is neutral and we can use it for good or for bad - we don’t need to be thinking of God constantly or consciously to be doing good with the world. God didn’t put us here just so we had to think of Him day in and day out - we do have a choice to do so but it is not relative to our salvation.

My philosophy is really quite simple, as I stated here many times. My position is that we are in need of salvation, and it is most wise to NEVER take our conscious attention away from our Saviour! Again, this is what the monks and hermits strive for; why not us also!

 

[Neildown]

I believe that after the fall we have both a good and evil inclination, and it is within God’s will that we shun the evil inclination with all our heart and soul!

Ok, so you believe humans are naturally sinful.

My philosophy is really quite simple, as I stated here many times. My position is that we are in need of salvation, and it is most wise to NEVER take our conscious attention away from our Saviour! Again, this is what the monks and hermits strive for; why not for us also!

Yes we are in need of salvation, but it is not mandatory to ALWAYS have our conscience on our Saviour. If it were subtle worship of demons to take our attention away from God we would be committing sin, be it mortal or venial, and it is not taught that we sin by not thinking of God 24/7. Yes, I agree, it is a good idea, but it isn’t mandatory, not to mention there are various other ways to do God homage - this is just one of billions, so as far as I can see, this is just a way to tell people that they should live with the same mentality as hermits.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yes we are in need of salvation, but it is not mandatory to ALWAYS have our conscience on our Saviour. If it were subtle worship of demons to take our attention away from God we would be committing sin, be it mortal or venial, and it is not taught that we sin by not thinking of God 24/7. Yes, I agree, it is a good idea, but it isn’t mandatory, not to mention there are various other ways to do God homage - this is just one of billions, so as far as I can see, this is just a way to tell people that they should live with the same mentality as hermits.

Again, it’s a matter of degree. The more we can emulate hermits and monks by never taking our conscious minds completely away from our Saviour the better off we will be! The more grace God provides to us, the more He will expect from us and the stricter He will judge us.

 

[Neildown]

Again, it’s a matter of degree. The more we can emulate hermits and monks by never taking our conscious minds completely away from our Saviour the better off we will be! The more grace God provides to us, the more He will expect from us and the stricter He will judge us.

So because I now know that it is good to think like a hermit God is now going to judge me in a more strict manner and I will be accused of demon worship for not thinking of Him all the time because of this knowledge?

You can make the argument that it is a good thing to do, but I think it is a little far-fetched to call miniscule, secular thoughts demon worship. Especially considering this is not advocated by the Church - I personally would avoid that line of thinking. In a way it is almost a form of scrupulosity it would seem.

 

[Little_One0307]

To the degree that Satan temps us subtly, and that giving into these temptations is a form of worship, it stands to reason that there are subtle form of Satan worship!

Actually this is a faulty argument because the second part of the premise is false, and one’s premise if false, has a false conclusion.

Not all temptations are a form of worship. Murdering someone because I disagree with them, is not a form of worship. It is a sin yes, but it is not done out of worship to Satan.

Because the second statement of the premise is false, then the conclusion proves to be false too. You can draw a conclusion that is true from a falsity. Just can’t be done.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

I believe that after the fall we have both a good and evil inclination, and it is within God’s will that we shun the evil inclination with all our heart and soul!

You believe, how about what the Church Teaches on such thing. Personal belief has nothing to do with it, it is about the choice of whether we decide to conform our beliefs to God and HIs Divinely revealed Truth, as revealed by Him through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

I keep hammering the same points again and again, I don’t mind at all.

My philosophy is really quite simple, as I stated here many times. My position is that we are in need of salvation, and it is most wise to NEVER take our conscious attention away from our Saviour! Again, this is what the monks and hermits strive for; why not us also!

You philosophy may be simple, but you applying and making use of bad logic to support your philosophy does not. Your arguments fall apart becuase of many false premises or general categorical statements that do not hold true across the board. In Truth, there can be no half-truth. If something is founded on a false argument, the argument falls apart. How about basing you philosophy on what the Church Teaches instead of your personal belief, when it is contradictory to what the Church Teaches?

I still noticed that you did not address the fact that the Church has condemned the heresy that Man is inherently evil. You sidestepped the issue.

God bless.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You believe, how about what the Church Teaches on such thing. Personal belief has nothing to do with it, it is about the choice of whether we decide to conform our beliefs to God and HIs Divinely revealed Truth, as revealed by Him through Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

I keep hammering the same points again and again, I don’t mind at all.

You philosophy may be simple, but you applying and making use of bad logic to support your philosophy does not. Your arguments fall apart becuase of many false premises or general categorical statements that do not hold true across the board. In Truth, there can be no half-truth. If something is founded on a false argument, the argument falls apart. How about basing you philosophy on what the Church Teaches instead of your personal belief?

God bless.

So, tell me, what does the Church teach on each of these issues? (please cite) What do the monks and hermits practice on the second issue? (please cite)

 

[Corki]

To the degree that Satan temps us subtly, and that giving into these temptations is a form of worship, it stands to reason that there are subtle form of Satan worship!

I agree that Satan can temp subtly but Satan worship is only one of the possible temptations and certainly not the most common.

Again, it’s a matter of degree. The more we can emulate hermits and monks by never taking our conscious minds completely away from our Saviour the better off we will be! The more grace God provides to us, the more He will expect from us and the stricter He will judge us.

This is very wrong and dangerous. Only those called to contemplative or ermetic life should emulate the monks and hermits. To spend all day in contemplation of God would not be “better off” for most Christians and certainly not for our neighbors.

Again, at any moment in (waking) time, we are consciously either worship good or evil. As soon as we divert our attention from holiness we are worshiping evil.

Again, this is not true. Conscious attention to God is good but diversion from that conscious worship does not equal worship of evil. Most of the time our attention is consumed by things that are either neutral (neither holy or evil) or by things that are good but not focused on God such as caring for family members, studying, housekeeping or working at our professions.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Not in playing sports or video games that have nothing to do with Satan or that contain things which would [or realistically could] cause us to sin.

I really don’t understand what you are trying to say there because this IS a debate and I’m listening to your points…

Seems that you are dealing with a very simplistic and stubborn line of thought!

Hermits and monks = holy

Regular Joes who play video games, listen to rock music and/or watch football = Satan worshippers

Hmmmmmmm…

 

[Little_One0307]

So, tell me, what does the Church teach on each of these issues? (please cite) What do the monks and hermits practice on the second issue? (please cite)

I’ll tell you what. And I don’t really care if you think this is childish, but seeing that you started this thread, it would actually be good of you to provide you citations for some of your conclusions.

Mine are there, you just got to go looking for them in the Church documents. When I see that ample and good documentation has been provided, I in a turn of good faith will provide mine, though you could start with the CCC, the Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, ohhh Dei Verbum, and some other documents that I cannot think off the top of my head.

And as to the second issue, I am not going to touch that with a ten-foot pole, becuase it is irrevelant.

God bless.

 

[Robert_Sock]

This is very wrong and dangerous. Only those called to contemplative or ermetic life should emulate the monks and hermits. To spend all day in contemplation of God would not be “better off” for most Christians and certainly not for our neighbors.

Back yourself up here. Certainly there are many who try to emulate Catholic saints, including those saints who were contemplative!

Again, this is not true. Conscious attention to God is good but diversion from that conscious worship does not equal worship of evil. Most of the time our attention is consumed by things that are either neutral (neither holy or evil) or by things that are good but not focused on God such as caring for family members, studying, housekeeping or working at our professions.

These things are not morally neutral! There is conscious worship of God and unconscious worship of Satan! Again, there is nothing religiously neutral! “Nobody can serve two masters!”

 

[Little_One0307]

These things are not morally neutral! There is conscious worship of God and unconscious worship of Satan! Again, there is nothing religiously neutral! “Nobody can serve two masters!”

Again false premise. Your misapplication of the laws of logic are truly astounding.

I would recommend getting D.Q. McInerny’s on Being Logical.

Your two supporting statements that you base your concluding argument on do not relate to eachother and therefore cannot be used to support your concluding argument.

So what about the times that you are not conscious about worshipping God? I am sure that at times in your life of holiness that you don’t think of God at all, does this mean that you are worshipping Satan, because obviously following your line of logic, if your attention is taken from God then you are worshipping Satan.

God bless.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I’ll tell you what. And I don’t really care if you think this is childish, but seeing that you started this thread, it would actually be good of you to provide you citations for some of your conclusions.

That’s funny! To demand citations from to support my views, but to refuse to back your claims up with citations, is lame!