Are these nonconforming lay practices ok?

[milimac]

There are two situations occurring with individuals in our parish:

• 1. A person prefers to kneel while receiving the Eucharist.
• 1. A person chants “Lord hear our prayer” in response to the prayers of the faithful while everyone else just says the response.
     I admire #1 because I often wish we still had the altar rails where we could still do that. I don’t do it however, because receiving the Eucharist in this way draws attention to myself and I don’t want to be a distraction. Although it doesn’t really bother me, I happen to know that a priest has asked the person doing this to stop, but he continues anyway, and has told others that the priest tried to get him to stop. I admire his reverence, but I don’t appreciate his disobedience.

The situation in #2 is sometimes noticeable at Sunday Mass but is extremely distracting at daily Mass. It’s not that I don’t like the chanting, except that he’s the only one doing it. I don’t know if anyone has ever spoken to him about it, but I’m wondering if I should.

It’s certainly not a stretch to give either case the benefit of the doubt and assume they are being reverent, but neither is it a stretch to think that one or both are doing some sort of “liturgical grandstanding”. It also seems (at least in situation 2) that a communal prayer is being turned individual.

Anyway, any thoughts or guidance would be appreciated.

 

[benedictgal]

There are two situations occurring with individuals in our parish:

• 1. A person prefers to kneel while receiving the Eucharist.
• 1. A person chants “Lord hear our prayer” in response to the prayers of the faithful while everyone else just says the response.
     I admire #1 because I often wish we still had the altar rails where we could still do that. I don’t do it however, because receiving the Eucharist in this way draws attention to myself and I don’t want to be a distraction. Although it doesn’t really bother me, I happen to know that a priest has asked the person doing this to stop, but he continues anyway, and has told others that the priest tried to get him to stop. I admire his reverence, but I don’t appreciate his disobedience.

The situation in #2 is sometimes noticeable at Sunday Mass but is extremely distracting at daily Mass. It’s not that I don’t like the chanting, except that he’s the only one doing it. I don’t know if anyone has ever spoken to him about it, but I’m wondering if I should.

Anyway, any thoughts or guidance would be appreciated.

I don’t have any resources for the second scenario, but here is what the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (as far back as 2002) said regarding kneeling to receive Holy Communion (this appears in the Adoremus Bulletin under the “posture” section):

The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213). In view of the law that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them” (canon 843 ¶ 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and – if the complaint is verified – that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.

Thanking Your Excellency for your attention to this matter and relying on your kind collaboration in its regard,

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez
Prefect

By the way, Cardinal Arinze, the current Prefect, has consistently affirmed this practice, as has Pope Benedict XVI.

Even though I don’t have documentatoin on the second situation, I would think that common sense should rule on this one. The General Intecessions don’t have to have a sung response (even though they employ this practice during some Papal Masses and at the Basilica of the Sacred Heart in Notre Dame (just watch the Sunday telecast on DirecTV, channel 103).

I hope this helps.

 

[m134e5]

#1. It’s fine to kneel to receive communion. People have written the Vatican on this subject, and it has been clarified. I kneel for communion, whether or not there are communion rails.

#2. That’s distracting, and shouldn’t be done- but I don’t think there is much you can do about it. It is not reverence to be a distraction during Mass. It is not reverence to disobey the pastor on such a trivial matter.

There are two situations occurring with individuals in our parish:

• 1. A person prefers to kneel while receiving the Eucharist.
• 1. A person chants “Lord hear our prayer” in response to the prayers of the faithful while everyone else just says the response.
     I admire #1 because I often wish we still had the altar rails where we could still do that. I don’t do it however, because receiving the Eucharist in this way draws attention to myself and I don’t want to be a distraction. Although it doesn’t really bother me, I happen to know that a priest has asked the person doing this to stop, but he continues anyway, and has told others that the priest tried to get him to stop. I admire his reverence, but I don’t appreciate his disobedience.

The situation in #2 is sometimes noticeable at Sunday Mass but is extremely distracting at daily Mass. It’s not that I don’t like the chanting, except that he’s the only one doing it. I don’t know if anyone has ever spoken to him about it, but I’m wondering if I should.

It’s certainly not a stretch to give either case the benefit of the doubt and assume they are being reverent, but neither is it a stretch to think that one or both are doing some sort of “liturgical grandstanding”. It also seems (at least in situation 2) that a communal prayer is being turned individual.

Anyway, any thoughts or guidance would be appreciated.

 

[milimac]

I don’t have any resources for the second scenario, but here is what the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (as far back as 2002) said regarding kneeling to receive Holy Communion (this appears in the Adoremus Bulletin under the “posture” section):

By the way, Cardinal Arinze, the current Prefect, has consistently affirmed this practice, as has Pope Benedict XVI.

Even though I don’t have documentatoin on the second situation, I would think that common sense should rule on this one. The General Intecessions don’t have to have a sung response (even though they employ this practice during some Papal Masses and at the Basilica of the Sacred Heart in Notre Dame (just watch the Sunday telecast on DirecTV, channel 103).

I hope this helps.

Thank you benedictgal, that was very helpful. If you happen to have a link to the document you referred to that would be very helpful. Perhaps our pastor needs to read it.

 

[benedictgal]

Here is the link.

adoremus.org/Notitiae-kneeling.html

I hope that this helps.

God bless you and have a blessed Thanksgiving!

 

[Hellisreal]

Thank you benedictgal, that was very helpful. If you happen to have a link to the document you referred to that would be very helpful. Perhaps our pastor needs to read it.

Be very careful how you approach the pastor on this one.

I think there have been threads that address the proper way to do this.

Use caution, and first and foremost- ask him in a non confrontational way why it is this/or that you find suspect are done.

Ask to meet with him. Give him respect.

 

[benedictgal]

Be very careful how you approach the pastor on this one.

I think there have been threads that address the proper way to do this.

Use caution, and first and foremost- ask him in a non confrontational way why it is this/or that you find suspect are done.

Ask to meet with him. Give him respect.

I believe that the link I posted has some canonical references on how to do this. These references come directly from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. If you read what is posted on the link I provided, you will find that it is clearly spelled out.

Don’t get me wrong. I am certainly not advocating hitting the pastor over the head with this document. Charitable and meaningful discussion is the best way to go. However, if you present concrete evidence that this is, in fact, an approved posture, then, the other part really doesn’t have a leg to stand on if Holy Communion is fixing to be denied.

 

[BigFeet]

I was a middle school teacher at our parish school, the director for our parish youth choir, a catechism teacher, a cantor, and very active in other parish activities. Last year, after 3 years at this parish, the pastor told my wife and me, and our 4 children that we could not genuflect before receiving Holy Communion in “his church” anymore. We weren’t even kneeling, only genuflecting while the person in front of us received so as not to hold up the line. We showed him many documents proving that what we were doing was allowed by the Church, but he insisted.

There was no way that we were going to be disobedient to the priest, but there was also no way that we weren’t going to show what we feel is proper reverence to God in the Eucharist. I quit my teaching job, and we left the parish. We now belong to a parish were the priests encourage people to either kneel, genuflect, or bow before receiving Communion. We always kneel now…I wouldn’t even consider genuflecting anymore.

“At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bend.”

 

[Nina_Paul]

I have to wonder about the true motives of worshippers who feel compelled to stand out during mass by the excessive demonstrations of extraordinary practices that individuate themselves so as to seem more pious than the rest of the poor sinners in attendance.

The disciples who were present at the Last Supper reclined at table. Jesus didn’t seem to mind.

The disciples surely didn’t completely comprehend that they were receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord at the time. That also didn’t seem to bother Jesus.

And why not? Because Jesus knew their hearts.

A *humble and contrite heart *is a much more effective witness than the gymnastics I have seen performed during mass. And frankly, I find it extremely distracting when the person ahead of me in line suddenly drops to his knees, causing me to trip and unbalance the person behind me as well.

Please read Matthew 6:5-8. These theatrical demonstrations of piety fall in the category of personal devotions and as such, should not be done during mass. Bow, stoop, genuflect (one knee or both), lie prostrate if you choose… crawl up the aisles, rend your garments, cover your heads with ashes! But please, do it on your own time and not during the mass.

You’ve found a document that says it’s perfectly fine that you receive communion on your knees. But, since your pastor has asked you not to, you’re going to run to your bishop and tattle on him - like a grade school child. Is this just treatment of a man who is trying to maintain order during mass? Who is already over worked because of the priest shortage? Who hears more complaining from the holier than Jesus himself crowd than he will ever hear thanks and appreciation?

I actually heard of a parishioner who wrote to the bishop because her priest in a human moment forgot to kiss the altar ONE TIME during daily mass. What’s up with that? Write the bishop if you find your parish priest sacrificing virgins and chickens, or trying to consecrate chocolate chip cookies!

Let’s see more genuine Christian charity instead of can you top this piety at mass.

 

[CapaxDei]

I have to wonder about the true motives of worshippers who feel compelled to stand out during mass by the excessive demonstrations of extraordinary practices that individuate themselves so as to seem more pious than the rest of the poor sinners in attendance.

Keep wondering. Eventually, perhaps, you’ll see that, as your formulation indicates, you’re missing the point.

 

[Hellisreal]

Hello Nina, and um, welcome to CAF.

So nice to meet you, I see this is your very first post here and - don’t hold back!

Keep on typing.

 

[Hellisreal]

Keep wondering. Eventually, perhaps, you’ll see that, as your formulation indicates, you’re missing the point.

One post wonder.

 

[Pius_X]

I have to wonder about the true motives of worshippers who feel compelled to stand out during mass by the excessive demonstrations of extraordinary practices that individuate themselves so as to seem more pious than the rest of the poor sinners in attendance.

The disciples who were present at the Last Supper reclined at table. Jesus didn’t seem to mind.

The disciples surely didn’t completely comprehend that they were receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord at the time. That also didn’t seem to bother Jesus.

And why not? Because Jesus knew their hearts.

A *humble and contrite heart *is a much more effective witness than the gymnastics I have seen performed during mass. And frankly, I find it extremely distracting when the person ahead of me in line suddenly drops to his knees, causing me to trip and unbalance the person behind me as well.

Please read Matthew 6:5-8. These theatrical demonstrations of piety fall in the category of personal devotions and as such, should not be done during mass. Bow, stoop, genuflect (one knee or both), lie prostrate if you choose… crawl up the aisles, rend your garments, cover your heads with ashes! But please, do it on your own time and not during the mass.

You’ve found a document that says it’s perfectly fine that you receive communion on your knees. But, since your pastor has asked you not to, you’re going to run to your bishop and tattle on him - like a grade school child. Is this just treatment of a man who is trying to maintain order during mass? Who is already over worked because of the priest shortage? Who hears more complaining from the holier than Jesus himself crowd than he will ever hear thanks and appreciation?

I actually heard of a parishioner who wrote to the bishop because her priest in a human moment forgot to kiss the altar ONE TIME during daily mass. What’s up with that? Write the bishop if you find your parish priest sacrificing virgins and chickens, or trying to consecrate chocolate chip cookies!

Let’s see more genuine Christian charity instead of can you top this piety at mass.

I agree completely. I have seen many times on these boards of “traditionalists” and “conservatives” complaining of things that, in the long run, mean very little. I honestly doubt that Jesus cares more about genuflecting than feeding the hungry, for example.

 

[puzzleannie]

There are two situations occurring with individuals in our parish:

• 1. A person prefers to kneel while receiving the Eucharist.
• 1. A person chants “Lord hear our prayer” in response to the prayers of the faithful while everyone else just says the response.
     I .

issues for the pastor to handle and the rest of the congregation to consider in charity. person #2 might be deaf. #1 might have just learned it that way in 1952 like I did and never got the memo. Charity. if parishioners find it distracting they should practice more attention to Christ in the Eucharist and less to the foibles of their brothers.

 

[milimac]

I have to wonder about the true motives of worshippers who feel compelled to stand out during mass by the excessive demonstrations of extraordinary practices that individuate themselves so as to seem more pious than the rest of the poor sinners in attendance.

I can’t know the hearts of those who feel compelled to show extra reverence when receiving Jesus, but I feel like I should assume they are doing it with the best of intentions and with a pure heart.

Personally if I was in a parish where dropping to our knees to receive Jesus was commonplace, I would love it. I could do it without wondering if I’m going to get a scornful look from the priest, or whether I’d be distracting others, drawing attention to myself, or developing a prideful attitude where I wonder if others are impressed with my piety. On the other hand, it won’t ever become commonplace until someone starts doing it.

 

[BigFeet]

The point is, that a priest cannot tell the lay faithful not to kneel when kneeling is approved (and encouraged) by the Vatican, and when priests (and bishops) have been told specifically NOT to tell the lay faithful that they cannot kneel, nor can they do anything to make the lay faithful feel guilty for doing so.

Kneeling before God happens to be a very humble posture (far more humble than just standing there like you’re waiting for lunch at the McDonalds counter), and it’s something that we are commanded to do in the Bible. I suppose these people who get all bent out of shape about “calling attention to yourself” are the same ones who don’t pray before meals in a restaurant (so they don’t stand out).

Frankly, people who don’t get on their knees in front of Almighty God are extremely distracting to me. That’s one of the reasons I keep my eyes closed for almost the entire Mass. It helps me to concentrate on the Lord. Perhaps anyone who may be distracted by my kneeling should do the same.

 

[Hellisreal]

The point is, that a priest cannot tell the lay faithful not to kneel when kneeling is approved (and encouraged) by the Vatican, and when priests (and bishops) have been told specifically NOT to tell the lay faithful that they cannot kneel, nor can they do anything to make the lay faithful feel guilty for doing so.

Kneeling before God happens to be a very humble posture (far more humble than just standing there like you’re waiting for lunch at the McDonalds counter), and it’s something that we are commanded to do in the Bible. I suppose these people who get all bent out of shape about “calling attention to yourself” are the same ones who don’t pray before meals in a restaurant (so they don’t stand out). Try and explain that before almighty God some day…“I didn’t show proper reverence to you because I didn’t want to stand out.”

Thank you Jesus, for not caring if your hanging on a tree would stand out in any way!

 

[milimac]

I suppose these people who get all bent out of shape about “calling attention to yourself” are the same ones who don’t pray before meals in a restaurant (so they don’t stand out).

Perhaps, but wrong in my case, although that would be accurate in the not too distant past. I wouldn’t exactly say I’m “bent out of shape” about it though. I actually admire it for the most part.

 

[andy120]

The point is, that a priest cannot tell the lay faithful not to kneel when kneeling is approved (and encouraged) by the Vatican, and when priests (and bishops) have been told specifically NOT to tell the lay faithful that they cannot kneel, nor can they do anything to make the lay faithful feel guilty for doing so.

Where has the Vatican said this? I’m just curious because the USCCB says the norm is standing.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/innews/092002.shtml:

The norm for the reception of communion is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed by providing the communicant with a catechesis on the reason for the norm.

 

[BigFeet]

Where has the Vatican said this? I’m just curious because the USCCB says the norm is standing.

MUST WE STAND FOR COMMUNION?

Congregation for Divine Worship​

Many Catholics are asking the question. The Vatican has already answered—emphatically. In these responses to individuals, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments clarifies the mind of the legislator, the Holy Father, in promulgating the Roman Missal and the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, including any national adaptations confirmed by the Holy See. Identifying information has been removed, as indicated by the Xs in the text.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWKNEEL.HTM

See also…

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0402ltrs.asp

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=439547&Forums=8&Experts=0&Days=2005&Author=&Keyword=genuflect&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=5&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at