Are these nonconforming lay practices ok?

[BigFeet]

I’m the one making decisions in my parish and you’re the one complaining and writing letters that go in the trash.

There you go. That says it all. It’s all about you. I thought it was God’s parish. Thank goodness everybody doesn’t have to go to YOUR parish, and abide by YOUR rules. I prefer to go to a Catholic church, where I can kneel in the presence of Almighty God.

 

[Nina_Paul]

I am wondering what your definition of “real presence is”. If you were visiting the queen of England would you genulflect? The Eucharist is the KIng of Kings…the Master and RUler of the universe…unless you are one of those who watches the communion line instead of bowing in silent prayer after communion how would you even know what a communicant was doing?

Wow! The judgments you’ve made in your post both of me and that poor family who sits in front of you are nothing short of amazing!

I am quite aware of the Real Presence and personally very devout. I just find no need to parade my piety during the mass.

Let me ask you this. If you were in a parish where everyone went to their Knees…would you? Or would you be compelled to stand out?

Actually, I would ***prefer ***to kneel for communion. I realize, however this would create a circus environment since we now receive communion under both Species as the norm. What am I thinking! We already ***have ***a circus environment going on! I was recently at a mass where a woman crawled on her knees all the way up to the front of the church to receive communion.

Here’s an idea! Everyone who is **not **receiving communion, please stay in your seats. Just like the old days. That includes all of the children who present themselves for a blessing. - No one did that before Vatican II - we sat quietly in our seats and waited for our parents and siblings. The communion line will go faster, we’ll need no extra help from laypeople and maybe we can have the communion rails back! After all, the intention of the Benediction is to bless those who did not receive communion.

Speaking of the old days (and I am a Pre-Vat II baby), we did not bow or genuflect other than at the prescribed times during the mass, and upon entering and leaving the church or crossing in front of the tabernacle. No one bowed or genuflected before taking their place at the communion rail or after they had received. Although I do remember the uber-pious who covered their faces with their hands while returning to their pews.

Since the Jewish people do not kneel during their services, it’s a pretty good bet that Jesus and his disciples also did not kneel during services. I will concede that Jesus might have knelt in private, personal prayer. The mass, however, is a public service - that is the meaning of the word liturgy.

I would hope that we are all capable of modelling a reverent deportment, proper to the dignity of the Sacrament whether we are sitting, kneeling, standing, or walking during the mass.

 

[benedictgal]

Once again, what you have hilighted is that Eucharist cannot be DENIED. I already adressed why it cannot be denied in an earlier post. Nowhere does this document state that it is preferable to receive kneeling, and standing is still the norm. It simply says that a priest cannot DENY Communion because someone takes the wrong posture. The norm is still standing; this has not been overruled. Is this so hard to grasp?

Keep making fun of what you perceive to be my lack of training. I’m the one making decisions in my parish and you’re the one complaining and writing letters that go in the trash.

PaixGoiaAmor, once again, you are not reading the text in toto. What part of the Cardinal’s letter do you not understand? Please read the entire texts, including the letter that was sent to the parties involved by one of the secretaries of the Congregation.

I would also direct you to read Cardinal Ratzinger’s comments, as well. As I indicated in my earlier posts, you cannot be putting words in the former (or present) prefect’s mouth. I have never debated that standing wasn’t the norm. What the documents have said, if you choose to read them (and not selected parts), is that kneeling for communion is an option that was never abandoned. To classify this as an abuse is to go contrary to what the Church holds.

Yes, each bishops’ conferences establishes the norms. However, in the case of the communicant kneeling to receive Holy Communion, that remains a very viable option that has been maintained by Rome (and consistently re-affirmed by both Pope John Paul II -under whose pontificate the original letter was issued- and by Pope Benedict XVI - who has written about the importance of kneeling). I am afraid that you are spinning your wheels on this one.

 

[benedictgal]

Since the Jewish people do not kneel during their services, it’s a pretty good bet that Jesus and his disciples also did not kneel during services. I will concede that Jesus might have knelt in private, personal prayer. The mass, however, is a public service - that is the meaning of the word liturgy.

QUOTE]

I would direct you to some comments that then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger wrote regarding kneeling. This information might help you when discussing the subject.

Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God. The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy.

 

[Nina_Paul]

After reading all of the posts in this thread, I can say with confidence that kneeling to receive communion has not increased anyone’s level of holiness in this crowd.

The nit picking, judgment, one-up-manship, bickering, snide remarks and spiritual pride evident in the posts and responses should make everyone of us ASHAMED!

Are we trying to be RIGHT or HOLY? I’m done posting - the majority of you are near occassions of sin for me.

 

[Nina_Paul]

All of the examples given in your quoted article were expressions of PRIVATE DEVOTION. Liturgy is, by definition, PUBLIC SERVICE. NEVER in Jewish liturgy - (Public Worship) - is kneeling encouraged, performed, required or even acceptable! Never! Not in a public service. It didn’t happen then and it doesn’t happen now. Get on the phone and ask your local rabbi.

The main reason for mass in the vernacular was to enable the laity to fully participate in the mass as a united body. This became necessary because instead of learning the Latin responses, people were saying the rosary or other **PRIVATE DEVOTIONS **during mass. The altar servers and the choir did all of the responding to the celebrant - the congregation rattled beads and flipped pages in their prayer books, completely ignoring what was happening on the altar until it came time to go to communion.

Let me say this again - **PRIVATE DEVOTIONS DURING MASS ARE INAPPROPRIATE. **

Standing for communion is now the norm because it was decided that the laity should be allowed to receive the Precious Blood. Imagine the chaos and mess that would be made if we attempted to distribute communion under both Species to 1,000 communicants kneeling at the communion rail. Not only is it inefficient, we risk slopping the Precious Blood all over the place. There’s a visual!

Since standing for communion is the now the norm for the security of the Body and Blood, then those who choose to kneel for communion are performing … A PRIVATE DEVOTION! It’s disruptive. It’s theatrical. And it’s being done to make a statement and for NO OTHER REASON.

 

[palmas85]

All of the examples given in your quoted article were expressions of PRIVATE DEVOTION. Liturgy is, by definition, PUBLIC SERVICE. NEVER in Jewish liturgy - (Public Worship) - is kneeling encouraged, performed, required or even acceptable! Never! Not in a public service. It didn’t happen then and it doesn’t happen now. Get on the phone and ask your local rabbi.

The main reason for mass in the vernacular was to enable the laity to fully participate in the mass as a united body. This became necessary because instead of learning the Latin responses, people were saying the rosary or other **PRIVATE DEVOTIONS **during mass. The altar servers and the choir did all of the responding to the celebrant - the congregation rattled beads and flipped pages in their prayer books, completely ignoring what was happening on the altar until it came time to go to communion.

Let me say this again - **PRIVATE DEVOTIONS DURING MASS ARE INAPPROPRIATE. **

Standing for communion is now the norm because it was decided that the laity should be allowed to receive the Precious Blood. Imagine the chaos and mess that would be made if we attempted to distribute communion under both Species to 1,000 communicants kneeling at the communion rail. Not only is it inefficient, we risk slopping the Precious Blood all over the place. There’s a visual!

Since standing for communion is the now the norm for the security of the Body and Blood, then those who choose to kneel for communion are performing … A PRIVATE DEVOTION! It’s disruptive. It’s theatrical. And it’s being done to make a statement and for NO OTHER REASON.

More Traditional bashing and this posters stuff isn’t even that good. Get a grip, we’ve already heard all of this nonsense before, it’s been addressed ad infinitum and nobody, except die hard anti traditionalists even believes it anymore.

Actually they were standing for Communion long before the Precious Blood became available to the Laity. Sorry to point that out, but I didn’t want you to embarrass yourself again in such a fashion. .

 

[benedictgal]

After reading all of the posts in this thread, I can say with confidence that kneeling to receive communion has not increased anyone’s level of holiness in this crowd.

The nit picking, judgment, one-up-manship, bickering, snide remarks and spiritual pride evident in the posts and responses should make everyone of us ASHAMED!

Are we trying to be RIGHT or HOLY? I’m done posting - the majority of you are near occassions of sin for me.

Nina, please do not lump all of us into this “holier than God” crowd.

I don’t think anyone has been saying that one posture is better than the other. Perhaps you did not carefully read people’s posts and the quoted documentation.

In charity, I think that you are misreading “personal piety” when it comes to the Liturgy. While it is certainly inappropriate to even silently pray the Rosary during the Mass, there is nothing wrong with an expression of reverence to the Body and Blood of Christ according to one’s personal piety. I’ve seen people semi-prostrate themselves after communion (including my PV on certain occasions). Are you going to tell me that there is something wrong with that, as well?

By the way, I’m very much intrigued by palmas comments regarding standing as a way to “protect” the Sacred Species. If we are concerned about “protecting” the Body and Blood of Christ, standing really has nothing to do with it. But, that maybe for another thread. Let’s all try to keep to the discussion at hand.

Evidently, the OP already had the answer that was requested.

 

[Nina_Paul]

More Traditional bashing and this posters stuff isn’t even that good. Get a grip, we’ve already heard all of this nonsense before, it’s been addressed ad infinitum and nobody, except die hard anti traditionalists even believes it anymore.

Actually they were standing for Communion long before the Precious Blood became available to the Laity. Sorry to point that out, but I didn’t want you to embarrass yourself again in such a fashion. .

Another smug reply. Do you serve fries with your self-righteousness?

How about showing your adoration for the Body of Christ by treating the Body of Christ that sits in the pews or has an opinion that you don’t share with as much dignity.

Of course I’m aware that we were standing for communion long before we were allowed to receive from the cup. I thought the readers here would all be able to grasp my point about securing the Elements without my having to prove that I’m well versed of the history of communion posture. You get an A award - or do I need to spell that out for you as well?

 

[Nina_Paul]

In charity, I think that you are misreading “personal piety” when it comes to the Liturgy. While it is certainly inappropriate to even silently pray the Rosary during the Mass, there is nothing wrong with an expression of reverence to the Body and Blood of Christ according to one’s personal piety. I’ve seen people semi-prostrate themselves after communion (including my PV on certain occasions). Are you going to tell me that there is something wrong with that, as well?

I’ve seen people reverently bow before they get to the minister. Beautiful. Lovely. Admirable.

I’ve seen people genuflect in line and cause people behind them to lose their balance (this has happened to me twice at daily mass). Not good and I have to wonder what they’re trying to prove.

I’ve seen people drop to their knees while the priest or EM isn’t expecting it and the Host having to be rescued. Also not good.

I’ve seen people crawl up the aisle on their knees to receive communion. What’s THAT about - and don’t tell me genuine and intense reverence - it was a performance.

As for the semi-prostration: yes, there is something wrong with in at mass. It is a private devotion.

Regarding the excerpt from B16:
proskynein doesn’t show up even once in the Greek Lexicon. studylight.org/lex/grk/search.cgi?word=kneel&search.x=20&search.y=7

Only Greek words for kneel used in the NT are: gonu, gonupeteo, and tithemi.

Tithemi shows up in Revelations and may be translated as: appointed, assign, committed, conceived, destined, down, falling, fixed, kept, kneeling, knelt, laid, laid aside, laid down, lay, lay down, lay…down, laying, lays down, made, make, offer, placed, present, purposed, put, puts, puts…away, putting, reached, serves, set down, set…down, sink

I will try to find the Gk word the B16 is transliterating as proskynein, but with no specific verse to refer to, it may be difficult.

barak in the majority of it’s usage in the OT refers not to KNEELING but to BLESSING. studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01288

2Chron 6:13: This is an example of Solomon’s private devotion - not part of a Jewish liturgy.

Ezra 9:5: This is Ezra’s private devotion - not part of a Jewish liturgy.

Psalm 22:29: All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; all who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage. This concerns the dead and not liturgical practice. (NAB)

Psalm 22:29: To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust and I shall live for him. (RSV - Catholic Edition) - B16 gives an adapted RSV translation (and a strange one at that!), but it still refers to the dead.

Once again, I PREFER to kneel to receive communion. I PREFER to kneel during the consecration. I PREFER to kneel upon returning to my seat after communion, too - not because I think kneeling is a more reverent posture than standing, but rather, it’s what I grew up with. However, it’s not my posture that is important, but my heart.

It is the Christ who transforms one’s heart:
not the kneeler
not the audience watching
not the spectacle being created
not the insistence upon one’s right to kneel.

 

[benedictgal]

I’ve seen people reverently bow before they get to the minister. Beautiful. Lovely. Admirable.

I’ve seen people genuflect in line and cause people behind them to lose their balance (this has happened to me twice at daily mass). Not good and I have to wonder what they’re trying to prove.

I’ve seen people drop to their knees while the priest or EM isn’t expecting it and the Host having to be rescued. Also not good.

I’ve seen people crawl up the aisle on their knees to receive communion. What’s THAT about - and don’t tell me genuine and intense reverence - it was a performance.

As for the semi-prostration: yes, there is something wrong with in at mass. It is a private devotion.

Regarding the excerpt from B16:
proskynein doesn’t show up even once in the Greek Lexicon. studylight.org/lex/grk/search.cgi?word=kneel&search.x=20&search.y=7

Only Greek words for kneel used in the NT are: gonu, gonupeteo, and tithemi.

Tithemi shows up in Revelations and may be translated as: appointed, assign, committed, conceived, destined, down, falling, fixed, kept, kneeling, knelt, laid, laid aside, laid down, lay, lay down, lay…down, laying, lays down, made, make, offer, placed, present, purposed, put, puts, puts…away, putting, reached, serves, set down, set…down, sink

I will try to find the Gk word the B16 is transliterating as proskynein, but with no specific verse to refer to, it may be difficult.

barak in the majority of it’s usage in the OT refers not to KNEELING but to BLESSING. studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01288

2Chron 6:13: This is an example of Solomon’s private devotion - not part of a Jewish liturgy.

Ezra 9:5: This is Ezra’s private devotion - not part of a Jewish liturgy.

Psalm 22:29: All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; all who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage. This concerns the dead and not liturgical practice. (NAB)

Psalm 22:29: To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust and I shall live for him. (RSV - Catholic Edition) - B16 gives an adapted RSV translation (and a strange one at that!), but it still refers to the dead.

Once again, I PREFER to kneel to receive communion. I PREFER to kneel during the consecration. I PREFER to kneel upon returning to my seat after communion, too - not because I think kneeling is a more reverent posture than standing, but rather, it’s what I grew up with. However, it’s not my posture that is important, but my heart.

It is the Christ who transforms one’s heart:
not the kneeler
not the audience watching
not the spectacle being created
not the insistence upon one’s right to kneel.

Nina, are you trying to dispute Pope Benedict now? Somehow, I trust him as a source more than a lot of others. After all, he’s the Pope now and we aren’t.

Nonetheless, it’s not particularly wise to judge someone who chooses to kneel when receiving Jesus. I’m not saying that this necessarily applies to you, but, this is one of those times when it’s not an abuse, since even Rome has indicated that it is not.

 

[palmas85]

Another smug reply. Do you serve fries with your self-righteousness?

How about showing your adoration for the Body of Christ by treating the Body of Christ that sits in the pews or has an opinion that you don’t share with as much dignity.

Of course I’m aware that we were standing for communion long before we were allowed to receive from the cup. I thought the readers here would all be able to grasp my point about securing the Elements without my having to prove that I’m well versed of the history of communion posture. You get an A award - or do I need to spell that out for you as well?

You may be surprised to know that the understanding of the Mass and its history is quite high among most on this forum. So your simplistic description of why we stand to receive Holy Communion rings totally false with, I would guess most on this forum. Add to that the fact that when you make statements such as the one below:

**The main reason for mass in the vernacular was to enable the laity to fully participate in the mass as a united body. This became necessary because instead of learning the Latin responses, people were saying the rosary or other PRIVATE DEVOTIONS during mass. The altar servers and the choir did all of the responding to the celebrant - the congregation rattled beads and flipped pages in their prayer books, completely ignoring what was happening on the altar until it came time to go to communion. **

not only does it insult those of us who were around in those days and know better, but it is just a flagrant attempt to push across your personal views at the expense of others. Believe me, most of us not only paid attention to what was going on at the altar, we joined in prayer with the Priest, which is the main purpse of the
Missal, not prayer book, as you called it, and knew exactly what was happening.

For you to imply otherwise, is highly insulting,shows a lack of knowledge and shows clearly who is truly and blatantly self righteous.

As far as private devotions go I agree, the Mass is no place for them. But kneeling is not a private devotion,and never has been.

 

[Nina_Paul]

Nina, are you trying to dispute Pope Benedict now? Somehow, I trust him as a source more than a lot of others. After all, he’s the Pope now and we aren’t.QUOTE]

I was actually quite surprised that I couldn’t verify his quotes and conclusions - - unless what you posted was unintentionally misquoted. Please check the excerpt you posted against the original for accuracy. I will continue to search my reference books.

 

[THurifer2]

Once again, what you have hilighted is that Eucharist cannot be DENIED. I already adressed why it cannot be denied in an earlier post. Nowhere does this document state that it is preferable to receive kneeling, and standing is still the norm. It simply says that a priest cannot DENY Communion because someone takes the wrong posture. The norm is still standing; this has not been overruled. Is this so hard to grasp?

Keep making fun of what you perceive to be my lack of training. I’m the one making decisions in my parish and you’re the one complaining and writing letters that go in the trash.

Rome says says in RS that kneeling is a recieving in a reasonable Manner. Letters that go in the trash.?.pretty big implications against Cardinal Arinze (someone I am sure you just love) since it was his signature at the end of RS that encourages the faithful that written inquiries will be read by his office.

 

[Nina_Paul]

[snip] Missal, not prayer book, as you called it, [snip]

For you to imply otherwise, is highly insulting,shows a lack of knowledge and shows clearly who is truly and blatantly self righteous.

As far as private devotions go I agree, the Mass is no place for them. But kneeling is not a private devotion,and never has been.

If I was referring to the Missal, I would have said, their Missal. I was referring to prayer books - like Key to Heaven or Imitation of Christ. I can’t help it if you choose to be insulted by assuming (wrongly) that I was calling the Missal a Prayer Book - Good grief!

Example:
The man who usually sits behind me at daily mass genuflects on both knees when he gets into line to receive communion.
When he’s in line, he bows.
When it’s his turn to receive he drops to his knees.
When he stands up again, he bows again.
Then, he starts all over to receive from the cup and ends with genuflecting on both knees before he enters his pew to kneel.

I only know his full routine because once I sat behind him.

This posturing isn’t called for in the rubrics of the mass.
This posturing is performed by the will of one indiviudal.
This posturing draws attention to himself.
Since it’s his personal decision to add these rituals to his liturgical experience, they can only be called PRIVATE DEVOTIONS.

Call it whatever you’d like, I find it disruptive, unnecessary, and over the top. About half of the daily mass congregants have what I can only call a communion routine - no two are alike.

You’re free to disagree, but I am allowed my opinion and shouldn’t be dismissed as a basher just because you hold a different opinion. I’ve stated previously that I prefer kneeling. But can you honestly tell me that the above example is appropriate at mass?

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Welcome, Nina_Paul. I prefer to think that people kneel and bow to adore the Blessed Sacrament, not to show off, even if the kneeling and bowing is excessive.

 

[Nina_Paul]

Thank you for the warm welcome.

I too, would hope that all of this was an expression of genuine devotion, but I’m not convinced of it.

My parish has become a three-ring circus of personal devotional preferences. Our pastor has tried to restore order but when he does, someone writes to the bishop (and yes, the bishops read these letters and take action).

Meanwhile - one must pay very close attention so as not to trip when the person in front begins the uber-devotions.

 

[palmas85]

If I was referring to the Missal, I would have said, their Missal. I was referring to prayer books - like Key to Heaven or Imitation of Christ. I can’t help it if you choose to be insulted by assuming (wrongly) that I was calling the Missal a Prayer Book - Good grief!

Example:
The man who usually sits behind me at daily mass genuflects on both knees when he gets into line to receive communion.
When he’s in line, he bows.
When it’s his turn to receive he drops to his knees.
When he stands up again, he bows again.
Then, he starts all over to receive from the cup and ends with genuflecting on both knees before he enters his pew to kneel.

I only know his full routine because once I sat behind him.

This posturing isn’t called for in the rubrics of the mass.
This posturing is performed by the will of one indiviudal.
This posturing draws attention to himself.
Since it’s his personal decision to add these rituals to his liturgical experience, they can only be called PRIVATE DEVOTIONS.

Call it whatever you’d like, I find it disruptive, unnecessary, and over the top. About half of the daily mass congregants have what I can only call a communion routine - no two are alike.

You’re free to disagree, but I am allowed my opinion and shouldn’t be dismissed as a basher just because you hold a different opinion. I’ve stated previously that I prefer kneeling. But can you honestly tell me that the above example is appropriate at mass?

I wasn’t insulted by your referring to a Missal as a prayer book. I just thought that since you were so way off base on the Pre Vatican II Mass that you were not aware of the difference, thats all. My apologies if you do.

Actually , I was referring to your statements about Traditional Mass behavior, you know, people not being involved before Vatican II and everything else. Endlessly saying rosaries, mindlessly flipping through prayer books and being ignorant of and not paying attention to anything until the time for Communion, etc. That was very insulting and I notice that you completely skipped over that part in your response. Some reason for that perhaps?

That you don’t like kneeling and find it offensive and possibly showboating in the context of the Mass is your opinion and you are entitled to it. And it does in all honesty sound like the person that you are referring to is possibly over the top. But why should his behavior at Mass concern you as long as it is not disruptive and/or sacriligeous?

However, to denigrate whole generations of devout Catholics who were involved in the Mass long before Vatican II was even a thought in someones mind is at best, downright rude and totally uncalled for.

 

[Nina_Paul]

I have found this reference to kneeling in Jewish practice (we all learn something new everyday - I hope):

ohr.edu/ask/ask119.htm
Dear Rabbi,

I need a reference in Talmud. Is there a place where it says that one may kneel if one has a paper between the knee and the floor?

The issue of kneeling has become a source of conflict for some of us in the 12 Step Programs (Alcoholics Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous etc.). Kneeling is not required for any reason in the 12-Step Program, but it’s sort of a tradition to kneel during the 3rd step which says “We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understand Him…”

Any other thoughts you have in regard to this question of kneeling would be welcome. Thank you soooooooooooo much for this service.

---

Dear Sarah Leah,

The Torah forbids prostrating yourself flat out on a stone floor, as was the way of the ancient idol worshippers. [emphasis added] Our Sages extended this prohibition to include kneeling.

The Shulchan Aruch says that if you put an intervening substance between your knees and the stone floor, then it’s permitted to kneel.

On Yom Kippur, we get on our knees and bow down with our faces to the floor. Many synagogues, especially in Israel, have stone or tile floors, so people bring towels to bow down upon. I was once in a synagogue where they passed out used computer paper to kneel on!

Sources:

Leviticus 26:1
Maimonides 6:6-8
Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 131:8

Note:
The kneeling that is performed is done by ALL present (or at least all who brought their towel or paper).

This kneeling is a liturgical rubric, not an individual decision or preference.

There it is for whatever it’s worth.

 

[Nina_Paul]

That was very insulting and **I notice that you completely skipped over that part in your response. ** Some reason for that perhaps?

What’s your point? Why do you take these swipes in every one of your posts? You are insulted because you have some deep need to feel insulted and it wouldn’t matter if I responded or not. There are plenty of points that I have made in my posts that you have not responded to. Have I inferred that you must have some dark reason why you avoided my points?

**That you don’t like kneeling ****and find it offensive **…

This statement is a good indication that you have not really read anything I’ve posted because I have stated several times that I prefer kneeling.

And it does in all honesty sound like the person that you are referring to is possibly over the top. But why should his behavior at Mass concern you as long as it is not disruptive and/or sacriligeous?

Once again, you have not read what I’ve actually written. Not only is it disruptive, he has caused me and several others to trip. Instead of constantly making smug replies to me, take the time to review what I have actually written - word for word - and see if you still object to what I have said because your responses here indicate that you are either skimming and assuming or otherwise selectively reading my statements.

However, to denigrate whole generations of devout Catholics who were involved in the Mass long before Vatican II was even a thought in someones mind is at best, downright rude and totally uncalled for.

I’m not trying to denigrate your devotions. I remember fondly the Pre-Vatican II mass.

We stood up and walked to the end of the pew to get into line. We knelt at the communion rail when a space opened up for us to do so. We tilted our heads back, opened our mouths, stuck our tongues out and received communion. We made the Sign of the Cross, stood up, folded our hands and returned to our pews. All in an orderly fashion.

1. The children too young to receive communion were left in the pews unless they were still babes in arms.
2. No one genuflected upon getting into the line to approach the communion rails.
3. No one bowed before kneeling at the communion rails.
4. No one genuflected upon rising from the communion rail.
5. No one genuflected before re-entering the pew to kneel.
6. There was no disorder, no distractive behavior, and the only extra devotion that was ever done by some people was covering their faces with their hands while they returned to their pews.
7. If one was not receiving communion, one stayed in one’s seat.

[And while we’re at it:
No one prayed the rosary aloud before mass.
No one spoke in the sanctuary at all. Ever!
Women covered their heads with a kleenex if they didn’t have a chapel veil.

But this is for another thread…]

What I see happening in my parish - and others - goes way beyond kneeling to receive communion. And that’s where I have to wonder (returning to my original post) what the real motives are.

I am not questioning your person motives or practices. How can I? I am observing extraneous and bizarre pre/post communion, over-the-top, showy, uber-pious, gymnastics (yes, there’s that word again!)