Are these nonconforming lay practices ok?

[palmas85]

What’s your point? Why do you take these swipes in every one of your posts? You are insulted because you have some deep need to feel insulted and it wouldn’t matter if I responded or not. There are plenty of points that I have made in my posts that you have not responded to. Have I inferred that you must have some dark reason why you avoided my points?

This statement is a good indication that you have not really read anything I’ve posted because I have stated several times that I prefer kneeling.

Once again, you have not read what I’ve actually written. Not only is it disruptive, he has caused me and several others to trip. Instead of constantly making smug replies to me, take the time to review what I have actually written - word for word - and see if you still object to what I have said because your responses here indicate that you are either skimming and assuming or otherwise selectively reading my statements.

I’m not trying to denigrate your devotions. I remember fondly the Pre-Vatican II mass.

We stood up and walked to the end of the pew to get into line. We knelt at the communion rail when a space opened up for us to do so. We tilted our heads back, opened our mouths, stuck our tongues out and received communion. We made the Sign of the Cross, stood up, folded our hands and returned to our pews. All in an orderly fashion.

1. The children too young to receive communion were left in the pews unless they were still babes in arms.
2. No one genuflected upon getting into the line to approach the communion rails.
3. No one bowed before kneeling at the communion rails.
4. No one genuflected upon rising from the communion rail.
5. No one genuflected before re-entering the pew to kneel.
6. There was no disorder, no distractive behavior, and the only extra devotion that was ever done by some people was covering their faces with their hands while they returned to their pews.
7. If one was not receiving communion, one stayed in one’s seat.

[And while we’re at it:
No one prayed the rosary aloud before mass.
No one spoke in the sanctuary at all. Ever!
Women covered their heads with a kleenex if they didn’t have a chapel veil.

But this is for another thread…]

What I see happening in my parish - and others - goes way beyond kneeling to receive communion. And that’s where I have to wonder (returning to my original post) what the real motives are.

I am not questioning your person motives or practices. How can I? I am observing extraneous and bizarre pre/post communion, over-the-top, showy, uber-pious, gymnastics (yes, there’s that word again!)

I actually posted what you wrote word for word. In fact I cut and pasted it. So if I could ask, how old are you?

 

[Nina_Paul]

Regarding the excerpt from B16:
proskynein doesn’t show up even once in the Greek Lexicon. studylight.org/lex/grk/search.cgi?word=kneel&search.x=20&search.y=7

Only Greek words for kneel used in the NT are: gonu, gonupeteo, and tithemi.

Tithemi shows up in Revelations and may be translated as: appointed, assign, committed, conceived, destined, down, falling, fixed, kept, kneeling, knelt, laid, laid aside, laid down, lay, lay down, lay…down, laying, lays down, made, make, offer, placed, present, purposed, put, puts, puts…away, putting, reached, serves, set down, set…down, sink

I will try to find the Gk word the B16 is transliterating as proskynein, but with no specific verse to refer to, it may be difficult.

barak in the majority of it’s usage in the OT refers not to KNEELING but to BLESSING. studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01288

2Chron 6:13: This is an example of Solomon’s private devotion - not part of a Jewish liturgy.

Ezra 9:5: This is Ezra’s private devotion - not part of a Jewish liturgy.

Psalm 22:29: All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; all who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage. This concerns the dead and not liturgical practice. (NAB)

Psalm 22:29: To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust and I shall live for him. (RSV - Catholic Edition) - B16 gives an adapted RSV translation (and a strange one at that!), but it still refers to the dead.

I found proskynein, Proskuneo. It literally means, to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand. It shows up 22 (not 29) times in Revelations and is mostly translated as worship or *bow down * even in the Catholic Edition of the NRSV.

studylight.org/lex/grk/frequency.cgi?number=4352&book=re&translation=nsn

It doesn’t come up in a lexicon search for kneel which explains why I didn’t find it yesterday.

 

[Nina_Paul]

I actually posted what you wrote word for word. In fact I cut and pasted it. So if I could ask, how old are you?

You posted what you posted… but you didn’t (based on your responses) READ the entire texts of my posts as evidenced by you’re stating that I dislike kneeling. Where did I ever say that? Re-read my posts and you will find that I have stated that my personal preference is kneeling.

Is 73 old enough to have some credibility with regards to the Tridentine mass?

 

[Nina_Paul]

Hello Nina, and um, welcome to CAF.

So nice to meet you, I see this is your very first post here and - don’t hold back!

Keep on typing.

Thanks for the welcome and my apologies for missing your post earlier.

 

[Nina_Paul]

I agree completely. I have seen many times on these boards of “traditionalists” and “conservatives” complaining of things that, in the long run, mean very little. I honestly doubt that Jesus cares more about genuflecting than feeding the hungry, for example.

I’m glad I decided to review the posts in this thread. Thanks for your reply.

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal;3001308:

Nina, are you trying to dispute Pope Benedict now? Somehow, I trust him as a source more than a lot of others. After all, he’s the Pope now and we aren’t.QUOTE]

I was actually quite surprised that I couldn’t verify his quotes and conclusions - - unless what you posted was unintentionally misquoted. Please check the excerpt you posted against the original for accuracy. I will continue to search my reference books.

Nina, this was, in fact, the quote. Are you using Catholic sources in your reference material?

 

[Nina_Paul]

Nina_Paul;3001802:

Nina, this was, in fact, the quote. Are you using Catholic sources in your reference material?

Catholic publishers are sadly lacking in the scriptural reference department because the demand is minimal.

However, I did finally find proskynein. From the context of the article, we are lead to believe that this Greek word means kneel but it does not. It means to worship, bow, or bow down.

The article is also in error in stating the proskynein is used 29 times in Revelations - it’s only used 22 times and a total of 54 times in the NT.

The OT references, too, are skewed to lead us to believe they refer to kneeling as a jewish liturgical rubric, and yet examination of the scripture verse in context shows these instances are clearly personal devotional acts.

I found an older edition of the RSV to compare Ps 22:29. It renders the verse more closely to the adaptation in the article: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.

Although the word dashen is translated here as proud it actually means fat, vigorous, stalwart ones.

Even more puzzling is the NRSV Catholic translates this word as all who sleep.

The footnote in the NAB reads: Hebrew unclear. The translation assumes that all on earth (v28-29) and under the earth (30) will worship God. (It’s all a bit unclear in the English, too, I might add!)

Back to the word Kara` may be translated *to bend, kneel, bow, bow down, sink down to one’s knees, kneel down to rest (of animals), kneel in reverence *.

This at least comes closer to the positioning statement of the article.

I’m wondering, though, if the article as posted is true to the original since I’m at a complete loss as to how B16’s scripture scholars could have allowed him to publish this with 1) a mistranslation of proskynein and 2) mis-stating the number of times this word is used in the NT.

I’ll have to look for the book, I guess.

I hope this helps rather than leads to more confusion.

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal;3003103:

Catholic publishers are sadly lacking in the scriptural reference department because the demand is minimal.

However, I did finally find proskynein

. From the context of the article, we are lead to believe that this Greek word means kneel but it does not. It means to worship, bow, or bow down.

The article is also in error in stating the proskynein is used 29 times in Revelations - it’s only used 22 times and a total of 54 times in the NT.

The OT references, too, are skewed to lead us to believe they refer to kneeling as a jewish liturgical rubric, and yet examination of the scripture verse in context shows these instances are clearly personal devotional acts.

I found an older edition of the RSV to compare Ps 22:29. It renders the verse more closely to the adaptation in the article: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.

Although the word dashen is translated here as proud it actually means fat, vigorous, stalwart ones.

Even more puzzling is the NRSV Catholic translates this word as all who sleep.

The footnote in the NAB reads: Hebrew unclear. The translation assumes that all on earth (v28-29) and under the earth (30) will worship God. (It’s all a bit unclear in the English, too, I might add!)

Back to the word Kara` may be translated *to bend, kneel, bow, bow down, sink down to one’s knees, kneel down to rest (of animals), kneel in reverence *.

This at least comes closer to the positioning statement of the article.

I’m wondering, though, if the article as posted is true to the original since I’m at a complete loss as to how B16’s scripture scholars could have allowed him to publish this with 1) a mistranslation of proskynein and 2) mis-stating the number of times this word is used in the NT.

I’ll have to look for the book, I guess.

I hope this helps rather than leads to more confusion.

Nina, Pope Benedict is one of the most preeminent and highly regarded theologians of our time. Why are you so quick to challenge him on this? Do you profess to know more than he?

He doesn’t need anyone’s approval on this one.

 

[Nina_Paul]

Nina_Paul;3003221:

Nina, Pope Benedict is one of the most preeminent and highly regarded theologians of our time. Why are you so quick to challenge him on this? Do you profess to know more than he?

He doesn’t need anyone’s approval on this one.

It’s not my intention to challenge him, but rather, to verify what has been attributed to him. I say that carefully, because, with the discrepancies that I’ve found, I believe there’s an error somewhere – and it maybe a transcription error and not his.

No… he doesn’t need anyone’s approval. But, if in fact his published works contain errors, I certainly want to understand the reason for the error.

Keep in mind, not everything he says, writes or does is infallible.

 

[palmas85]

You posted what you posted… but you didn’t (based on your responses) READ the entire texts of my posts as evidenced by you’re stating that I dislike kneeling. Where did I ever say that? Re-read my posts and you will find that I have stated that my personal preference is kneeling.

Is 73 old enough to have some credibility with regards to the Tridentine mass?

If you are in fact 73 then you probably went through quite a bit of the Traditional mass As did I And in response, yes, we frequently had recited rosaries prior to Mass and after Mass depending on when those involved wanted to say it. No I never saw anyone genuflect getting out of the pew to receive Communion. No, I never saw anyone bow before kneeling or genuflect before kneeling. No, I never saw anyone genuflect or bow after receiving. No, I never saw anyone bow or genuflect prior to getting in the pew after receiving.

As a matter of fact, I still haven’t. In fact, I sincerely doubt that many people have, maybe even you. Things have a tendency to get exagerrated on these forums. On the other hand, I have seen people crawl up the aisles as penance and prostrate themselves in front of the altar. But then again prostration is part of the Priests ordination ceremony among others. I have seen people crawl up the steps of the cathedral as well… While I wasn’t there it is said that when St Bernadette crawled around in the mud, ate grass and drank muddy water after several tries many thought she was showing off. In fact, her Mother Superior at the Convent in Nevers treated her very badly with that being one of the reasons. She thought her to be a showboat and attention seeker.

I never thought that she or most others did it as showboating or making a statement. In her case she was following directions that no one else knew about. For others II always felt that was their own personal sense of piety. Much the same as the Tibetians who climb the steps on their knees twirling their prayer wheels. They don’t do it for anyone else or to show off.

You say that you prefer kneeling and thats good. Yet, your posts seem to look for ways to either disparage those who do kneel or to find fault with the rationales for kneeling. I have yet to truly understand why you feel it to be anything more than what it probably is. Someone personal sense of piety. Thats all.

Why does it bother you so much??

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal;3003233:

It’s not my intention to challenge him, but rather, to verify what has been attributed to him. I say that carefully, because, with the discrepancies that I’ve found, I believe there’s an error somewhere – and it maybe a transcription error and not his.

No… he doesn’t need anyone’s approval. But, if in fact his published works contain errors, I certainly want to understand the reason for the error.

Keep in mind, not everything he says, writes or does is infallible.

Oh, yes I am very well aware that as a man, Joseph Ratzinger is not infallible. However, just because he doesn’t use sources that you use doesn’t make him necessarily wrong. Remember, biblical scholars are not always in agreement about everything. Perhaps your sources are in error, especially if they are Protestant. Recall that Protestants do not agree with the Church on many doctrinal issues and they would be quick to find anything that would refute kneeling.

Furthermore, even though you say that you are not against kneeling, the tone of your post belies something else.

Your remarks separating personal piety and devotional practices from the Mass are very telling. Granted, no one here is advocating recitation of the Rosary and other devotionals happening simultaneously during the Mass. However, for you to characterize kneeling as strictly devotional and perhaps for show could demonstrate, perhaps, a misunderstanding of why we kneel in the first place. Yes, you say that you prefer to kneel; however, in the same breath, you allude to some idea that others shouldn’t kneel if they are doing this for “show.”

An 80-year-old woman who happens to be a dear friend of mine in Austin happens to kneel every time she receives Holy Communion. One of the priests tried to deny her Holy Communion for the same reasons PaixGoiaAmor indicated. However, when she reported it to the Bishop, he took action and reminded the priest that while it is the norm in the United States to receive Holy Communion standing, kneeling has never been declared an abuse by anyone, much less the Vatican.

Furthermore, one of the younger priests in the parish would extend his hand to the elderly woman to help her get up after kneeling. It should be interesting to note that the priest who tried to deny her communion was middle age.

Perhaps it would do you well to read Pope Benedict’s complete book, The Spirit of the Liturgy, as well as his other books on the Mass: Feast of Faith and A New Song for the Lord. Perhaps it will help you gain a better understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Furthermore, what you see written in those pages is now slowly coming to pass in the Church. If you want a blueprint for where the Church is heading as far as the Mass is concerned, then these three books will serve as an excellent guide.

 

[Nina_Paul]

If you are in fact 73 then you probably went through quite a bit of the Traditional mass As did I And in response, yes, we frequently had recited rosaries prior to Mass and after Mass depending on when those involved wanted to say it. No I never saw anyone genuflect getting out of the pew to receive Communion. No, I never saw anyone bow before kneeling or genuflect before kneeling. No, I never saw anyone genuflect or bow after receiving. No, I never saw anyone bow or genuflect prior to getting in the pew after receiving.

We had silence before mass. No praying aloud allowed!

The folks in my parish are doing everything but a jig up and down the aisles.

I don’t have a problem with a profound bow.
I wouldn’t even have a problem if they kept it strictly to kneeling down to receive. It’s all of the extra, add-on, attractions and distractions that are making me nuts. And… if you’ve re-read what you might have missed, this is what I’ve been saying in my posts. These add-on, extra, uber-piocious displays of personal devotion that would be best performed at 40 Hours… between say 2 and 3am… but not at mass.

Am I making better sense to you now? Why does it bother me? Because it’s a ridiculous display of misplaced faith. It says, God will love me more if I hop on one foot, rend my garments, or whatever. Instead of: God loves me now… always…forever. (the hopping on one foot is a humorous exaggeration to make a point).

Keep in mind that whoever cleaned up after the Last Supper undoubtably swept up, dusted off and stepped on Eucharistic crumbs. I’ll venture to guess that someone used his sleeve to wipe his mouth, too. (Just the thought is making someone’s hair turn gray, I’m sure!)

I’m not condoning irreverent treatment of the Elements, but rather, trying to point out that it’s not necessary to go overboard with outward devotions.
Having genuine love for one another is worth more to the Beloved than bowing, stooping, crawling and sackcloth ever could. That’s the part we still haven’t figured out.

 

[Nina_Paul]

Nina_Paul;3003320:

Perhaps it will help you gain a better understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

When my husband died in '73, I returned to college so that I could support our children who were still at home. I earned my Bachelor of Sacred Theology in '76 and my Master of Sacred Theology in '78. My Masters thesis was based on the Eucharistic Liturgy. I taught high school religion for 20 years.

I am qualified to discern credible scripture resources from biased resources and I’m confident in my ability to understand liturgy… past and present.

It might surprise you that Protestant and Catholic scholars use many of the same scripture reference books. B16 quoted from the RSV translation. This translation is predominantly used by Protestant clergy and laity, and Catholic Bible scholars. It has been only recent that Catholic laity have begun using it (the NAB is great Greek, but it’s lousy English - the NRSV reads better).

I believe in nearly all of my posts I attempted to describe the excessive posturing that I find objectionable. Kneeling by itself, (although I still maintain is a private devotion) is not the real problem. One person kneels, the next one bows and then kneels… the next one genuflects, then comes someone crawling … and the guy who can’t make up his mind so he does it all. Welcome to Holy Tabernacle of God Three Ring Circus! For an act that is supposed to represent reverence, it has, in fact, created Mass Chaos (pun intended).

Now, our pastor has tried to maintain order, but his attempts (which did not include refusing communion to anyone) met with whiny babies writing to the bishop Father told us not to kneel!- failing to mention, of course, that they have created a circus environment by not confining themselves just to kneeling, but the added attractions of can you top my uber-piociousness!

I’m thinking of making a video so the bishop can see what’s really going on.

 

[Walking_Home]

If you are in fact 73 then you probably went through quite a bit of the Traditional mass As did I And in response, yes, we frequently had recited rosaries prior to Mass and after Mass depending on when those involved wanted to say it. No I never saw anyone genuflect getting out of the pew to receive Communion. No, I never saw anyone bow before kneeling or genuflect before kneeling. No, I never saw anyone genuflect or bow after receiving. No, I never saw anyone bow or genuflect prior to getting in the pew after receiving.

As a matter of fact, I still haven’t. In fact, I sincerely doubt that many people have, maybe even you. Things have a tendency to get exagerrated on these forums. On the other hand, I have seen people crawl up the aisles as penance and prostrate themselves in front of the altar. But then again prostration is part of the Priests ordination ceremony among others. I have seen people crawl up the steps of the cathedral as well… While I wasn’t there it is said that when St Bernadette crawled around in the mud, ate grass and drank muddy water after several tries many thought she was showing off. In fact, her Mother Superior at the Convent in Nevers treated her very badly with that being one of the reasons. She thought her to be a showboat and attention seeker.

I never thought that she or most others did it as showboating or making a statement. In her case she was following directions that no one else knew about. For others II always felt that was their own personal sense of piety. Much the same as the Tibetians who climb the steps on their knees twirling their prayer wheels. They don’t do it for anyone else or to show off.

You say that you prefer kneeling and thats good. Yet, your posts seem to look for ways to either disparage those who do kneel or to find fault with the rationales for kneeling. I have yet to truly understand why you feel it to be anything more than what it probably is. Someone personal sense of piety. Thats all.

Why does it bother you so much??

---

You know palmas85—I honestly believe many, many people have been–well “catechized” within the last 40 or so years-- to have a disparaging view of actions such as kneeling and/or other actions/ things associated with the pre-Vat II Church.

 

[palmas85]

I don’t have a problem with a profound bow.
I wouldn’t even have a problem if they kept it strictly to kneeling down to receive. It’s all of the extra, add-on, attractions and distractions that are making me nuts. . These add-on, extra, uber-piocious displays of personal devotion that would be best performed at 40 Hours… between say 2 and 3am… but not at mass.

Am I making better sense to you now? Why does it bother me? Because it’s a ridiculous display of misplaced faith.

****Keep in mind that whoever cleaned up after the Last Supper undoubtably swept up, dusted off and stepped on Eucharistic crumbs. I’ll venture to guess that someone used his sleeve to wipe his mouth, too. ****

I’m not condoning irreverent treatment of the Elements, but rather, trying to point out that it’s not necessary to go overboard with outward devotions.
Having genuine love for one another is worth more to the Beloved than bowing, stooping, crawling and sackcloth ever could. That’s the part we still haven’t figured out.

Ah, Christology from below. I should have guessed. Recently two distinct ways viewing the life of Christ have developed. . What is known as “Christology from above” begins with the Second Person of the Trinity, with the preexisting divine Word in relation to the Father and the Holy Spirit. It then goes downward to the Incarnation,. Finally, this approach to Christology draws our attention to how the Word made flesh suffered and died for our sins, and then rose from the dead and returned to God This more traditional way of thinking about Jesus Christ is often called high Christology due to its emphasis on the divinity of Jesus Christ. Examples of this approach are Joseph Ratzinger’s Introduction to Christianity, The Person of Christ by Jean Galot, S.J., the Catechism of the Catholic Church , and in the CDF’s declaration, Dominus Iesus .

The other view of Christ is called "Christology from below. Those who support this one start with the man Jesus. Often they begin either by considering in general what it means to be human, or by reconstructing the historical figure of Jesus as a Jew in Galilee during the reigns of Herod the Great and his son Herod Antipas The thinking then goes upward by reflecting on Jesus’ union with God during his life, in his prayer to God as Abba, his teachings, his personal authority, in his compassion. and in his miracles. Finally, Christology from below looks into the mystery of Jesus’ suffering, death, and Resurrection, asking why Christ is more than one martyr among others.It alsoloks into his Resurrection appearances. Christology from below is also known as low Christology, and is characterized by the emphasis it places on the humanity of Jesus Christ. It usually relies to some extent on the results of historical-critical studies of the Bible. Monika Hellwig’s Jesus: The Compassion of God , Gerard Sloyan’s Jesus in Focus , and Jesus: A Gospel Portrait by Donald Senior, C.P and Christology by Gerald O’Collins, S.J., are examples of this approach. Leonardo Boff, Gustavo Gutierrez, Hans Kung, Karl Rahner, S.J., Edward Schillebeeckx, O.P., Elisabeth Schussler Fiorenza, and Jon Sobrino, S.J., are all identified with Christology from below.

It is interesting to note that the Holy Father is not a fan of the second approach. Then Cardinal Ratzinger gave an address to the synod of bishops in Rome on October 6, 2001, in which he sharply criticized Christology from below. He stated: “The central problem of our time is the emptying out of the historical figure of Jesus. It begins with denying the virgin birth, then the Resurrection becomes a spiritual event, then Christ’s awareness of being the Son of God is denied, leaving him only the words of a rabbi. Then the Eucharist falls, and becomes just a farewell dinner.”

These are strong words. They indicate that the Holy Father is troubled not only by specific texts but also by Christology from below in general, especially when it relies heavily on the historical-critical method.

It appears the Holy Father sees this approach to Christ as a threat to Christian faith. If taken to the extreme, Christology from below leads to the belief that Christ was first and foremost a man not the second person of the Trinity. Therefore all extraneous displays of reverence and devotions, are totally inappropriate as Christ walked among us. It emphasizes Christ humanity to the exclusion of all else. That way of thinking is what led the Church to where it is now in many places, a barren soulless place where people meet not to celebrate Christ as much as their fellowship with each other, It also led to Liberation Theology.

I’m not saying that this is your view or that you take it to the extreme. But it does appear that you are headed in that direction.

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal;3003700:

When my husband died in '73, I returned to college so that I could support our children who were still at home. I earned my Bachelor of Sacred Theology in '76 and my Master of Sacred Theology in '78. My Masters thesis was based on the Eucharistic Liturgy. I taught high school religion for 20 years.

I am qualified to discern credible scripture resources from biased resources and I’m confident in my ability to understand liturgy… past and present.

It might surprise you that Protestant and Catholic scholars use many of the same scripture reference books. B16 quoted from the RSV translation. This translation is predominantly used by Protestant clergy and laity, and Catholic Bible scholars. It has been only recent that Catholic laity have begun using it (the NAB is great Greek, but it’s lousy English - the NRSV reads better).

I believe in nearly all of my posts I attempted to describe the excessive posturing that I find objectionable. Kneeling by itself, (although I still maintain is a private devotion) is not the real problem. One person kneels, the next one bows and then kneels… the next one genuflects, then comes someone crawling … and the guy who can’t make up his mind so he does it all. Welcome to Holy Tabernacle of God Three Ring Circus! For an act that is supposed to represent reverence, it has, in fact, created Mass Chaos (pun intended).

Now, our pastor has tried to maintain order, but his attempts (which did not include refusing communion to anyone) met with whiny babies writing to the bishop Father told us not to kneel!- failing to mention, of course, that they have created a circus environment by not confining themselves just to kneeling, but the added attractions of can you top my uber-piociousness!

I’m thinking of making a video so the bishop can see what’s really going on.

While it is commendable that you went back to school and earned several degrees in theology, I am curious as to which school you attended. Bear in mind also that you went to school during the time of a major shift in the “theology” of many Catholic universities. Many took the supposed “spirit” of Vatican II and ran with it, turning the Council into something that it never meant to be.

In fact, when he was a professer at Tubingen (forgive misspellings here), then-Fr. Joseph Ratzinger noticed a dangerous shift in theology and liturgical direction. This led him to leave that post and move to Regensberg, where he taught dogmatic theology until his ordination as Archbishop of Munich.

Nonetheless, your words seem to bear a particular disdain for kneeling and relegate it to private devotion. May I respectfully remind you that for several centuries, kneeling was the posture for reception of Holy Communion. It has never been refuted by Constitution on Sacred Liturgy (Vatican II) nor by any recent documents issued by Rome. Who better than to have Benedict XVI as the source of information on this? After all, he was at the Council; we were not.