Are They Being Duped?

[guanophore]

I have been finding a common theme among some of the Catholic blogs I read.

It seems there are more than a few people who have explored the Catholic faith and fallen in love with it, and all its rich traditions, beauty and mystery, only to be turned off and away by what they actually receive in the way of indoctrination when they enroll at their local parish.

They write about how they decided to become Catholic, and have been mystified at the vastly different experience they encounter from what their expectations were, at the parishes they enrol in. Some of them leave the faith, and others suspend their initiation out of disappointment with the Catholic education they are receiving, while they contemplate the SSPX or the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Here is one story

Here is another who sought the SSPX to avoid the innovations

Here is another who speaks of many such people and his experiences with them

Why is this happening to these new converts? Their disappointment is evident in what they feel they are not receiving at the hands of the Church they came to believe in. The tradition they were seeking and expecting was replaced with innovation. If there were more indult parishes available to the Catholic faithful, this would not be such an issue.

I know, it is really sad. I started going to a Byzantine Church. That is probably more reflective of what they are looking for.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I know, it is really sad. I started going to a Byzantine Church. That is probably more reflective of what they are looking for.

Did you go the Byzantine Church because you didn’t find what you were looking for in the NO Church?

 

[Uxor]

I have been finding a common theme among some of the Catholic blogs I read.

It seems there are more than a few people who have explored the Catholic faith and fallen in love with it, and all its rich traditions, beauty and mystery, only to be turned off and away by what they actually receive in the way of indoctrination when they enroll at their local parish.

They write about how they decided to become Catholic, and have been mystified at the vastly different experience they encounter from what their expectations were, at the parishes they enrol in. Some of them leave the faith, and others suspend their initiation out of disappointment with the Catholic education they are receiving, while they contemplate the SSPX or the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

Here is one story

Here is another who sought the SSPX to avoid the innovations

Here is another who speaks of many such people and his experiences with them

Why is this happening to these new converts? Their disappointment is evident in what they feel they are not receiving at the hands of the Church they came to believe in. The tradition they were seeking and expecting was replaced with innovation. If there were more indult parishes available to the Catholic faithful, this would not be such an issue.

We have many converts at our FSSP Parish who know latin, sing in the choir the georgian chant and are very well read.

 

[Uxor]

People sometimes have unrealistic expectations. Often all we can offer is a few old ladies, a guy with a beard who can just about play the guitar, a crumbling church hall, and an elderly priest who has got rather intolerant and set in his way.

By going for ultra-orthodoxy you can create a tiny church with a very committed, resourceful membership. However the energy is largely an illusion, and it is parasitic upon the Orthodox church. If it gets big, it develops exactly the same problems.

What is an ultra-orthodoxy?

 

[paramedicgirl]

We have many converts at our FSSP Parish who know latin, sing in the choir the georgian chant and are very well read.

It sounds like they found what they were looking for.

 

[Uxor]

I think in most parishes, the priest is not able to spend the time teaching the RCIA program. It’s a year-long commitment and they just don’t have the man power./QUOTE

I don’t believe that. Our Parish Priest teaches two classes every Sunday, one between the 9:00am and 11:30am Mass, and then that afternoon. PLUS he hears confession 30 mins before each Mass plus says the Mass and Vespers at 4:00pm If my Priest can do all this on one Sunday, so can all the other Priests, there is no excuse IMO…

 

[paramedicgirl]

I don’t believe that. Our Parish Priest teaches two classes every Sunday, one between the 9:00am and 11:30am Mass, and then that afternoon. PLUS he hears confession 30 mins before each Mass plus says the Mass and Vespers at 4:00pm If my Priest can do all this on one Sunday, so can all the other Priests, there is no excuse IMO…

Your priest is FSSP. I have noticed how involved they are in the religious education and spiritual life of the parish and parishioners. There seems to be such holy dedication among these priests, and I have also noticed it in my sister’s SSPX parish, where the priests teach the adult catechism. (I don’t think they call it RCIA there.)

 

[Uxor]

It sounds like they found what they were looking for.

Yes they have. It is was just a shock to me at first how few cradle catholics there were compared to converts, I was truly amazed and also how they young they are, from around 20 to 30. Our choir is all young men from 20 to 25, altar boys range from the very young to men in their 20s to 40s. Alot of good looking single men also attend my parish, educated young professionals. Though some of them are going into the Priesthood I have wondered if the ones that are not are looking also for their future wifes. They are also very respectful of women. If a woman walks into the room, they stand up or if you are sitting next to them at Mass and going to Holy Communion, they will come out of the pew and step back and let you go first. Also our Church is packed out on Sundays, they never allow women to stand, men give up their seats. When I first attended Mass there and started to get to know everyone, I would say, where am I at??? This is soooo nice. Felt like I was back in the 1940s how they treated women in the old movies.

 

[Uxor]

Your priest is FSSP. I have noticed how involved they are in the religious education and spiritual life of the parish and parishioners. There seems to be such holy dedication among these priests, and I have also noticed it in my sister’s SSPX parish, where the priests teach the adult catechism. (I don’t think they call it RCIA there.)

Yes I belong to a FSSP Parish. Yes I can say my Priest cares about my sanctification and going to Heaven as he does all his flock. Also the graces we receive at Mass also depends on the holiness of the Priest offering the Mass and our holiness too. Years ago I thought I was this terriable person, because I was the only one that showed up for Confession. I felt horriable thinking I was all around these holy people. Finally it dawned on me after to getting to know some of the people, it wasn’t that they were holy, they just didn’t believe in Confession or bother to go. So I think sometimes you hear from some, I don’t get nothing from the NO Mass because the amount of graces are not coming because the state of everyone’s soul. I’m not trying to judge anyone’s soul here but to take Holy Communion not being in a state of grace is spiritual suicide.

 

[bear06]

I think if people found a parish such as yours, they would love it, rather than leave it. It sounds like what they were expecting to find when they enter the Church.

Yes, you would think that. Still, despite wonderful catechetical programs, priests, Masses, etc., they still leave. There will always be those who want things customized to their every desire.

 

[Uxor]

Yes, you would think that. Still, despite wonderful catechetical programs, priests, Masses, etc., they still leave. There will always be those who want things customized to their every desire.

I would disagree our Parish is exploding, and so are the Societies under the Pontifical Right. People who attend are totally committed to God, it is their call to holiness for them. Has nothing to do with personal desire. I see this as God’s doing.

 

[bear06]

I would disagree our Parish is exploding, and so are the Societies under the Pontifical Right. People who attend are totally committed to God, it is their call to holiness for them. Has nothing to do with personal desire. I see this as God’s doing.

I think you missed my original post. We are a traditional parish with a Novus Ordo in Latin and a TLM with an Institute priest in charge of the TLM community in our parish. People still leave and it has everything to do with their personal desire. They have no reason to leave. It’s certainly not all of them and I gave the two reasons I’ve observed when this occasionally happens.

 

[Uxor]

I think you missed my original post. We are a traditional parish with a Novus Ordo in Latin and a TLM with an Institute priest in charge of the TLM community in our parish. People still leave and it has everything to do with their personal desire. They have no reason to leave. It’s certainly not all of them and I gave the two reasons I’ve observed when this occasionally happens.

Ok, no problem.

 

[Manfred]

Good thread paramedicgirl.

Here is a perspective offered by Fr. George William Rutler (I believe he appears at times on EWTN) in his book, “A Crisis of Saints” (Ignatius Press). He is also a Priest who is old enough to have experienced the liturgy both before and after the changes. The emphases in bold are mine:

A Liturgical Parable

The Hard Truth

…We seem to slip out of that golden sense of ultimate truth in two ways. The first is by losing any real awareness of the holy. The second is by denying that it has been lost. Without lapsing into cricitism that would be out of place, suffice it to say that the worship of holiness is weak in our culture, and the beauty of holiness has been smudged in transmission through the revised liturgy. For without impugning its objective authenticity in any degree, its *bouleversement *[Complete overthrow; a reversal; a turning upside down] of the traditional Roman rite marks the first time in history that the Church has been an agent, however unintentionally, in the deprivation of culture, from the uprooting of classical language and sensibility to wanton depreciation of the arts.

…It is immensely saddening to see so many elements of the Church, in her capacity as Mother of Western Culture, compliant in the promotion of ugliness. There may be no deterrent more formidable to countless potential converts than the low estate of the Church’s liturgical life, for the liturgy is the Church’s prime means of evangelism. Gone as into a primeval mist are the days not long ago when apologists regularly had to warn against being distracted by, or superficially attracted to, the beauty of the Church’s rites. And the plodding and static nature of the revised rites could not have been more ill-timed for a media culture so attuned to color and form and action.

(pp. 107-108)

Fr Rutler is a priest par excellence whose thoughts on any matter are invaluable and insightful. I’ve seen/heard him many times on EWTN. Excellent and articulate speaker. Wry sense of humor.

I believe he is a convert from the Anglican church, but his knowledge of Catholic Church history ranks right up there with that of Fr Charles Connor of the Scranton, PA diocese.

His thoughts on this matter say it all.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paramedicgirl
This is exactly what I think is happening. The beauty is gone, along with the attraction and appeal it holds for these people.

Yes, I agree. To me it is as if one took a woman, stripped her of her feminine beauty, and then wondered why she did not have as many men courting her as before.

On the other hand, the men who courted her before were shallow and apparently had no deep love for her as they would not court her after she was not physically beautiful.

If people leave the church because the Mass or the church itself is not as “beautiful” as it may once have been, then they have a shallow faith. Mass is not about pleasing our senses. It’s about praising God. And if that means speaking in boring old English in an ugly modern church, then so be it. What matters is not how I feel when I’m there, but what I do when I’m there.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

On the other hand, the men who courted her before were shallow and apparently had no deep love for her as they would not court her after she was not physically beautiful.

If people leave the church because the Mass or the church itself is not as “beautiful” as it may once have been, then they have a shallow faith. Mass is not about pleasing our senses. It’s about praising God. And if that means speaking in boring old English in an ugly modern church, then so be it. What matters is not how I feel when I’m there, but what I do when I’m there.

When I said stripped her of her feminine beauty I meant to literally take away any feminine beauty (which all women have). If the Church’s teachings are beautiful (which they are), it is appropriate that the liturgy and churches be beautiful as well.

Further, it is God Himself who made women beautiful (because He is good). He might have done it for a reason. I suppose he could have made Eve without any feminine beauty and if Adam balked at marrying her God could have just told him he was shallow and he needs to marry her anyway.

I mean, I suppose if one were to ask a married man what first attracted him to his wife it was probably her beauty. Her beauty attracted him and then he got closer to her and came to know her as a person as well. Then the intimacy grew deeper, and beauty just aided and abetted in this. This is God’s design.

Same thing with churches. People (hopefully) are attracted by the beauty of the church, art, and liturgy and this opens their heart to draw nearer to the Church and learn more about her which leads to a deeper relationship.

There really is no excuse for us as a Church jettisoning the art and architecture and beauty in the liturgy which helped shape Western Civilization.

Yes, we as Catholics do need to stick with the Church no matter how mediocre her liturgy, art, and architecture have become. However, if we are concerned with the salvation of souls (as I’m sure you are) then we should hope and pray for a restoration of beauty which draws in potential converts, rather than a banality which doesn’t even compel them to take a second look. And beauty is good for our souls as well. There’s a reason God has given some people great skill in the arts.

God is very generous with us, we ought to be generous as well with those who are not Catholic but might be drawn to the Church if her beauty in art, architecture, and liturgy would only draw them in.

 

[4HisChurch]

People sometimes have unrealistic expectations. Often all we can offer is a few old ladies, a guy with a beard who can just about play the guitar, a crumbling church hall, and an elderly priest who has got rather intolerant and set in his way.

By going for ultra-orthodoxy you can create a tiny church with a very committed, resourceful membership. However the energy is largely an illusion, and it is parasitic upon the Orthodox church. If it gets big, it develops exactly the same problems.

You know, I think you have made a point that can be translated to the larger Church. I sometimes wonder why the Church (and individual parishes) has the problems it does with lack of reverence, lack of following the actual teachings of the Church, etc.

I do think that (some) people go off looking for what is, essentially, a tiny group of very committed people who all (seem to) follow the Church’s teachings, or who are all very committed and/or reverent, etc.

 

[4HisChurch]

Have you all seen the "Save the Liturgy, Save the World"http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b214/4HisChurch/savetheliturgysmall.jpg merchandise over at The Cafeteria is Closed? Great stuff.

Gerald at The Cafeteria is Closed has some wise stuff to say about the very blog entry cited by the original poster.

Conversion is much like courtship - everything seems ideal at first. It seems unthinkable that the object of your affection might be imperfect. Certainly, if you never commit yourself to someone, everything will remain glossy and superficial if you jump ship at the sign of trouble.

 

[CatQuilt]

Father Mitch Pacwa has written a book called, “Father, Forgive Me For I Am Frustrated”.

Here’s one of the reviews…

The frustrated Catholics come in many shapes and forms. Those that are philosophically aligned with one movement or the other, those that have personality conflicts, those that dissent or don’t understand the doctrines of the Church, etc.

Fr. Mitch’s book is an introduction on how to deal with these frustrations. It isn’t a book that will help you to quiet your conscience if it is flaring up. It isn’t there to guide you into a “you are okay, I’m okay” analysis of your inner-child. What it does is helps those that have genuine frustrations who are within the Church. There are no quick-fixes or easy answers. That may turn some off, because they actually might have to study or work at changing themselves (the place where the frustrations lie). Practical and hard advice peppers the book. It is a quick read and easy to read. If frustrated, you might give it a try.

Perhaps if you know of someone who is thinking of leaving the Church, you could give them a copy of this.

Editted to add, I think it’s sad that someone would just walk away from The Truth without fighting for it. I am going through a certain amount of frustration too but I can’t imagine being anything other than Catholic.

 

[m134e5]

Why is this happening to these new converts? Their disappointment is evident in what they feel they are not receiving at the hands of the Church they came to believe in. The tradition they were seeking and expecting was replaced with innovation.

They learned the faith without being a part of it. They read books by saints and theologians and thought that they would physically experience what the saints and theologians portrayed.

They never converted fully. Most of them were former evangelicals who study a lot, and don’t have much understanding of or interest in the mystical life of the Church- so they sit around and get cranky when things are not done exactly like they envision them to be.

If there were more indult parishes available to the Catholic faithful, this would not be such an issue.

There would be other issues- because if they go to Mass because they want a show, then they are going for the wrong reasons. If they have truly converted, they will accept the authority of the Holy Father- including his authority to change the liturgy.