Are They Being Duped?

[Brennan_Doherty]

I just checked and all the links worked.

I was really hoping to get some (name removed by moderator)ut from Latin Mass Catholics, in particular to find out how they instruct their adult converts to the faith. We know how the NO does it, with RCIA, and that appears to be a big part of the problem here. Can anyone come on here and say how or if the Latin Mass initiation is different?

I didn’t go to RCIA at a traditional parish, but I actually did check around and went to one where it seemed like I would actually learn about the Catholic faith, and I did, thankfully.

I did get permission to go down to Sacramento, CA to be confirmed in the old Latin rite by the FSSP. I can say that the priest quizzed me on stuff like the precepts of the Church and other things I should have learned in a good RCIA program to make sure I was ready to be confirmed and had sufficient knowledge.

So I had the impression that the FSSP does teach the important things regarding the faith people need to know before they get confirmed.

 

[Al_Masetti]

“Unfortunately”, not every director of religious education is Scott Hahn.

Hahn fell in love with the Church, but he had the benefit of exhaustive Bible scholarship and very erudite debates with equally qualified scholars.

But you and I and probably most of the DRE’s are not Scott Hahn.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I’m guessing so.

The part I don’t really understand is why they aren’t seeking out these parishes, to begin with.

Not every RCIA is going to be suited to every participant, even if they were all teaching perfectly according to the Magesterium - there are differences in leadership styles,and I think it’s fair that if someone is uncomfortable, it’s okay for them to seek out a different teacher.

I also think that if someone is really unhappy with their RCIA, to the point where they are honestly convinced that they are being taught heresy, I don’t know why they wouldn’t try to find a parish where they are more comfortable - or at least bring it up to the people in charge that things don’t seem to be quite right.

JM, if you live in a small town in Canada, like I do, there is only one Catholic church per town, so that would be a stumbling block to searching around for a better suited RCIA class. In a city, sure, I would think people would seek out the best instruction they could get.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I didn’t go to RCIA at a traditional parish, but I actually did check around and went to one where it seemed like I would actually learn about the Catholic faith, and I did, thankfully.

I did get permission to go down to Sacramento, CA to be confirmed in the old Latin rite by the FSSP. I can say that the priest quizzed me on stuff like the precepts of the Church and other things I should have learned in a good RCIA program to make sure I was ready to be confirmed and had sufficient knowledge.

So I had the impression that the FSSP does teach the important things regarding the faith people need to know before they get confirmed.

I didn’t know that adults were quizzed prior to being accepted, but it’s a great idea. Put the onus on the teacher to prepare them better.

I have heard about the quizzes or tests that Confirmation candidates used to get. I’m not sure if it’s still done in the NO Churches. I don’t think so; I have taught Catechism for four years now, and I’ve never seen it. But I’ve never taught the Confirmation class, so I can’t be sure.

 

[AMDG1]

I’m sure nobody will read this because it’s going to be post number 64 or something like that.

That said, to answer the original post…I have a hard time believing that converts are leaving the church because what they get in their “indoctrination” doesn’t match their experience once they become Catholic.

I say this for the following reasons:

1. RCIA programs are generally aligned with the philosphy of the parish they are part of. Innovative parish usually means innovative RCIA program, same true with traditionalists.
2. Converts spend enough time in their parish and experience enough of the Mass to be able to figure out how traditional or progressive the place is. In reflecting on my own parish and Mass, I simply don’t buy it that anyone could emerge from RCIA and suddenly find the Mass to be objectionably progressive.

Bottom line - I think the stories quoted in the original post only stir the proverbial pot in terms of traditionalists versus progressives, which is what I believe they were designed to do in the first place.

Dissenting views welcome but that’s my two cents.

Pax.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I’m sure nobody will read this because it’s going to be post number 64 or something like that.

That said, to answer the original post…I have a hard time believing that converts are leaving the church because what they get in their “indoctrination” doesn’t match their experience once they become Catholic.

I say this for the following reasons:

1. RCIA programs are generally aligned with the philosphy of the parish they are part of. Innovative parish usually means innovative RCIA program, same true with traditionalists.
2. Converts spend enough time in their parish and experience enough of the Mass to be able to figure out how traditional or progressive the place is. In reflecting on my own parish and Mass, I simply don’t buy it that anyone could emerge from RCIA and suddenly find the Mass to be objectionably progressive.

Bottom line - I think the stories quoted in the original post only stir the proverbial pot in terms of traditionalists versus progressives, which is what I believe they were designed to do in the first place.

Dissenting views welcome but that’s my two cents.

Pax.

What the bottom line really is: the original post was intended to create a discussion for why some people are not getting what they perceived as Catholic education from the Catholic church they enroll in to become Catholic.

And so far, it’s been a good discussion.

 

[Brenda_V]

I didn’t know that adults were quizzed prior to being accepted, but it’s a great idea. Put the onus on the teacher to prepare them better.

I have heard about the quizzes or tests that Confirmation candidates used to get. I’m not sure if it’s still done in the NO Churches. I don’t think so; I have taught Catechism for four years now, and I’ve never seen it. But I’ve never taught the Confirmation class, so I can’t be sure.

Actually in my NO Parish this is done at the bare minimum of three times - once when the students are studying for their First Confession (and subsequent ones), again when they are studying for their First Communion and finally when they are studying for Confirmation. In the “between” Sacrament times it all depends on the RE teacher whether they are tested or not. I help my daughter with First Grade and we test on their prayers, because we have only six students this year it is easy to hear who knows the prayers and who doesn’t when we say our beginning class Prayers but for their sake we put the pressure on them so they have to say them for one of our parents and myself while my daughter teaches the class. This prepares them for the big pressure of more questions to answer before they make their First Confession in Second grade and their First Communion in Third grade.

I can’t answer for the RCIA candidates though as I don’t work with this program. I can tell you that our Pastor does go to some of the RCIA classes and if not him, then his associate. They also teach classes throughout the year on Monday nights if you so choose to attend.

Right now our Monday classes are the usual Lenten “Soup and Scripture”. You get soup and a study of Scripture (I don’t attend mostly because I am just not an evening person but also because I have way too many food allergies to be fed by someone else).

Brenda V.

 

[USCGwife]

I haven’t looked at the blogs linked, but I will say that this phenomenon isn’t limited to any one faith. I don’t doubt that some converts leave out of ‘disillusionment’ (is that a word?!). But in reading, I’ve seen others note that there’s a “cycle” of conversion…and when the excitement & luster wear off, it’s not unusual for the once-zealous convert to just drift away.

Search ByzCath.org forums and you’ll find lots of threads about “convertitis” and such.

Linked at the same forum is an interesting article - granted, it’s about experiences with conversion to Holy Orthodoxy, but I wager you could interchange any of the Christian denominations every time you read “Orthodox” & the conclusions would be the same…

“After the Chrism Dries”

 

[jmcrae]

I’m sure nobody will read this because it’s going to be post number 64 or something like that.

That said, to answer the original post…I have a hard time believing that converts are leaving the church because what they get in their “indoctrination” doesn’t match their experience once they become Catholic.

I say this for the following reasons:

1. RCIA programs are generally aligned with the philosphy of the parish they are part of. Innovative parish usually means innovative RCIA program, same true with traditionalists.
2. Converts spend enough time in their parish and experience enough of the Mass to be able to figure out how traditional or progressive the place is. In reflecting on my own parish and Mass, I simply don’t buy it that anyone could emerge from RCIA and suddenly find the Mass to be objectionably progressive.

Bottom line - I think the stories quoted in the original post only stir the proverbial pot in terms of traditionalists versus progressives, which is what I believe they were designed to do in the first place.

Dissenting views welcome but that’s my two cents.

Pax.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying, all along.

 

[jmcrae]

What the bottom line really is: the original post was intended to create a discussion for why some people are not getting what they perceived as Catholic education from the Catholic church they enroll in to become Catholic.

Yes, but what I’m getting at is, surely they would notice this some time prior to the Easter Vigil.

I’m with the other guy - it feels like a set-up, created so that people can say, “Oh, NO!! Bad Catholic Church!!” Again.

 

[Ham1]

I’m sure nobody will read this because it’s going to be post number 64 or something like that.

That said, to answer the original post…I have a hard time believing that converts are leaving the church because what they get in their “indoctrination” doesn’t match their experience once they become Catholic.

I say this for the following reasons:

1. RCIA programs are generally aligned with the philosphy of the parish they are part of. Innovative parish usually means innovative RCIA program, same true with traditionalists.
2. Converts spend enough time in their parish and experience enough of the Mass to be able to figure out how traditional or progressive the place is. In reflecting on my own parish and Mass, I simply don’t buy it that anyone could emerge from RCIA and suddenly find the Mass to be objectionably progressive.

Bottom line - I think the stories quoted in the original post only stir the proverbial pot in terms of traditionalists versus progressives, which is what I believe they were designed to do in the first place.

Dissenting views welcome but that’s my two cents.

Pax.

You win. Best post in thread.

How do you only figure out your Church is liberal AFTER you convert and not during the year you spent going to classes???

 

[tcraig]

Well, I’m a convert who sometimes feels disappointed in the Catholic church. The expression one blogger used - “the honeymoon is over” – is an apt description. I’ll try to weigh in …

Like many converts I discovered the truth of Catholicism through my own studies. I felt that something was “lacking” in my former protestant faith, was dissatisfied with Sola Scriptura (it’s not hard to spot the inconsistencies) and just began studying and reading more on my own. I wasn’t trying to be Catholic, it’s just where my studies led.

I can’t describe the feeling of “Aha!” one gets when all the missing puzzle pieces start to fall into place. The Catholic faith is just so right and so true, it’s almost as if your eyes are opened for the first time … You’re scared to begin the journey into the church, but also excited. And then …. You come smack up against today’s “average” Catholic parish.

Now most protestant views of the Catholic church come from what they’ve seen in movies and on TV via the Vatican - beautiful churches, stained glass, statues, incense, chant, etc. So it’s a real shocker to experience a mass where Haugen and Haas are the “composers” of choice, no one you’ve spoken to has ever had incense at a mass, and the altar looks like a slab of concrete. You’ve totally fallen in love with the beauty and truth of the Catholic faith, but there’s no beauty to be found in your parish. I had more beauty and reverence (and WAY better music!) at my old Methodist church than I have ever found in my NO parishes.

It was only when I found a TLM (attended my first one merely out of curiosity 10 months after I converted) that I discovered the beauty that I thought I would find when I initially joined the church. It was the first time that I actually “felt” Catholic. There was the incense, the Latin (I sang Salve Regina for the first time ever at that mass), an altar rail … Believe it or not, the TLM church was the third Catholic church I had attended by that time, but was the first one that actually had statues in it! I know that this may seem like a minor thing to many, but it was something that resonated strongly with me. Everything in that TLM church screamed out “Catholic” to me, and it was something that I had been so hungry for without even realizing it. I attended this TLM parish for 2-1/2 years, until I had to move.

Since I’ve joined the Catholic church (nearly seven years now) I’ve attended many, many masses in different parishes across the U.S. Occasionally I will find a beautiful NO in a lovely church with some Latin, incense, good hymns, etc. There will be statues in the church, and often a rosary prayed before mass. I love those masses, too, so I don’t want it to seem as if I am a “TLM fanatic”. But the great majority of masses that I’ve attended have no beauty, and while I certainly know that it is Jesus up on the altar (well, a few times I’ve wondered if the consecration was actually valid) it seems sad to me that that is the “best” a parish can or will do. And there’s nothing that “feels” even remotely Catholic at those masses.

Should I go on feelings alone? No, of course not, and I don’t. And my feelings didn’t keep me from converting either. But I am human and cannot escape my feelings nor my longing for beauty in worship. And the typical Catholic parish today is such a letdown it almost physically hurts. And from conversations that I have had with other converts (there were a lot at my TLM parish) they feel the same way.

BTW, I did not enter the Church via RCIA, even though it was a NO parish. Because of difficulties with my husband’s schedule (he is a pilot) we took individual lessons and entered the church in November (started in August, entered three months later). RCIA is convenient for many, but it doesn’t have to be the only way to go. The RCIA program at this parish was a bit “fluffy” or lightweight, and our “individual lessons” mainly consisted of handing us videotapes and answering questions. We spoke to the priest only twice - when we first approached him about converting and when he confirmed us. We weren’t even told that it is common to take a saint’s name for confirmation, so we don’t have one.

At my TLM parish, our priests gave individual or small group instruction. Our son joined the Catholic church at our TLM parish, and the priest gave him a 25 question quiz that he was required to pass!

 

[ncjohn]

Maybe I’m the only one, but I find the entire premise of this thread incredibly ironic.

After a couple years here, I have constantly run into posts where the response–from those who self-profess to being “traditionalist”–to anyone who describes leaving (or being turned of by) the Church because of the way they were treated, is “your (or their) faith must not be very deep if you allowed something like that to drive you from the Church.”

Yet here we have an entire thread devoted to commenting on those who might think about leaving the Church based on the external preferences in worship style. But I hear no comments that their faith must be awfully weak if they are considering leaving over such a thing.

Irony and double standards? If our decision on the truth of the Church is based on human actions, or worship styles the faith is indeed quite likely to be based on the wrong things, regardless of which “side” one might be coming from.

My two cents…and worth every penny!

Peace,

 

[paramedicgirl]

Well, I’m a convert who sometimes feels disappointed in the Catholic church. The expression one blogger used - “the honeymoon is over” – is an apt description. I’ll try to weigh in …

Like many converts I discovered the truth of Catholicism through my own studies. I felt that something was “lacking” in my former protestant faith, was dissatisfied with Sola Scriptura (it’s not hard to spot the inconsistencies) and just began studying and reading more on my own. I wasn’t trying to be Catholic, it’s just where my studies led.

I can’t describe the feeling of “Aha!” one gets when all the missing puzzle pieces start to fall into place. The Catholic faith is just so right and so true, it’s almost as if your eyes are opened for the first time … You’re scared to begin the journey into the church, but also excited. And then …. You come smack up against today’s “average” Catholic parish.

Now most protestant views of the Catholic church come from what they’ve seen in movies and on TV via the Vatican - beautiful churches, stained glass, statues, incense, chant, etc. So it’s a real shocker to experience a mass where Haugen and Haas are the “composers” of choice, no one you’ve spoken to has ever had incense at a mass, and the altar looks like a slab of concrete. You’ve totally fallen in love with the beauty and truth of the Catholic faith, but there’s no beauty to be found in your parish. I had more beauty and reverence (and WAY better music!) at my old Methodist church than I have ever found in my NO parishes.

It was only when I found a TLM (attended my first one merely out of curiosity 10 months after I converted) that I discovered the beauty that I thought I would find when I initially joined the church. It was the first time that I actually “felt” Catholic. There was the incense, the Latin (I sang Salve Regina for the first time ever at that mass), an altar rail … Believe it or not, the TLM church was the third Catholic church I had attended by that time, but was the first one that actually had statues in it! I know that this may seem like a minor thing to many, but it was something that resonated strongly with me. Everything in that TLM church screamed out “Catholic” to me, and it was something that I had been so hungry for without even realizing it. I attended this TLM parish for 2-1/2 years, until I had to move.

Since I’ve joined the Catholic church (nearly seven years now) I’ve attended many, many masses in different parishes across the U.S. Occasionally I will find a beautiful NO in a lovely church with some Latin, incense, good hymns, etc. There will be statues in the church, and often a rosary prayed before mass. I love those masses, too, so I don’t want it to seem as if I am a “TLM fanatic”. But the great majority of masses that I’ve attended have no beauty, and while I certainly know that it is Jesus up on the altar (well, a few times I’ve wondered if the consecration was actually valid) it seems sad to me that that is the “best” a parish can or will do. And there’s nothing that “feels” even remotely Catholic at those masses.

Should I go on feelings alone? No, of course not, and I don’t. And my feelings didn’t keep me from converting either. But I am human and cannot escape my feelings nor my longing for beauty in worship. And the typical Catholic parish today is such a letdown it almost physically hurts. And from conversations that I have had with other converts (there were a lot at my TLM parish) they feel the same way.

BTW, I did not enter the Church via RCIA, even though it was a NO parish. Because of difficulties with my husband’s schedule (he is a pilot) we took individual lessons and entered the church in November (started in August, entered three months later). RCIA is convenient for many, but it doesn’t have to be the only way to go. The RCIA program at this parish was a bit “fluffy” or lightweight, and our “individual lessons” mainly consisted of handing us videotapes and answering questions. We spoke to the priest only twice - when we first approached him about converting and when he confirmed us. We weren’t even told that it is common to take a saint’s name for confirmation, so we don’t have one.

At my TLM parish, our priests gave individual or small group instruction. Our son joined the Catholic church at our TLM parish, and the priest gave him a 25 question quiz that he was required to pass!

I think the above post is exactly reflective of what the people are saying in the links I presented in the original post.

This post echoes the problem perfectly, in my opinion.

 

[Trident59]

I, personally, know a young couple that recently converted from the Episcopal church.

They were attracted to the Catholic faith from EWTN’s daily Mass.

When they started RCIA, they couldn’t believe what they were witnessing. For some strange reason they stuck it out and with the help of several new friends found a reverent NO church. My wife and I took them to a Tridentine Mass and an old Dominican Rite recently. They told us that THAT is what they had been hoping to find. Not the stuff they encountered at most NO Masses. However, they and many of my friends are biting the “bullet” until we can convince the Archbishop to let us have more old Rite Masses.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I, personally, know a young couple that recently converted from the Episcopal church.

They were attracted to the Catholic faith from EWTN’s daily Mass.

When they started RCIA, they couldn’t believe what they were witnessing. For some strange reason they stuck it out and with the help of several new friends found a reverent NO church. My wife and I took them to a Tridentine Mass and an old Dominican Rite recently. They told us that THAT is what they had been hoping to find. Not the stuff they encountered at most NO Masses. However, they and many of my friends are biting the “bullet” until we can convince the Archbishop to let us have more old Rite Masses.

Your post is an another example of what I think the real problem is. I think what these people are seeking is the Latin Mass with all its beautiful traditions, and they stumble into the Novus Ordo parishes and find it’s not what they were expecting.

 

[jmcrae]

Your post is an another example of what I think the real problem is. I think what these people are seeking is the Latin Mass with all its beautiful traditions, and they stumble into the Novus Ordo parishes and find it’s not what they were expecting.

Yes, but I don’t think anyone is deliberately duping them, by providing a very traditional RCIA, and then suddenly springing a “clown” Mass on them for their Initiation, or something.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Yes, but I don’t think anyone is deliberately duping them, by providing a very traditional RCIA, and then suddenly springing a “clown” Mass on them for their Initiation, or something.

No, I don’t think so either. I think they just ended up in the wrong parishes.

 

[jmcrae]

No, I don’t think so either. I think they just ended up in the wrong parishes.

Yes - that, and somehow they’re never told that the externals are not “the faith” - that Jesus comes down from Heaven to every validly celebrated Mass, and that the externals (style of architecture, style of music, etc.) is “icing” - it’s not the substance of the experience.

Obviously, if we can find what suits our tastes, that’s wonderful! But we shouldn’t let our tastes determine whether we remain Catholic, or not. The Protestants and many of those who are in schism have fabulous externals, but they don’t have the heart - the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist in an undivided communion with the Apostles, the Saints, and the angels in Heaven.

Would it be better if every church were beautiful, and if every church had Gregorian chant - sure. But that’s not how it is, and people need to be made aware that “your mileage will vary” with regard to these external features - not every parish has them - not every parish even wants them; I notice even in my own city, which tends to be very conservative, we have some pretty wacky things happening out in the suburbs - guitars at Mass, multimedia experiences, and so on - and it seems as though there is a mentality out in the suburbs that church needs to be simple-minded and entertaining. Thank God it’s not like that here in the inner city - but then again we have our challenges here, too - priests who don’t speak English very well, homeless people wrecking the Church gardens, and so on - so it’s a give-and-take, because we’re dealing with the fallen human race, and the problems that come with it.

 

[BobP123]

If our decision on the truth of the Church is based on human actions, or worship styles the faith is indeed quite likely to be based on the wrong things, regardless of which “side” one might be coming from.

My two cents…and worth every penny!

Peace,

Too bad no one told this to Bugnini and the other designers of the New Mass.